RidingSmart position: always, or sometimes?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Since attending a RidingSmart event in fall '04, I've ridden with a number of other graduates and noticed that many of them adhere to the prescribed body position even during relatively modest turns and at modest lean angles. OTOH, I feel very awkward doing the same thing, and tend to assume the RS position only during more aggressive maneuvering. That said, I’m far from perfect in its implementation. The problems I encounter are:

 

1. this works fine on long graceful turns with comfortable lead-ins, e.g. the Cherohala Skyway or BRP, where I have plenty of time to think and concentrate on doing everything right. On tight roads like Deal's Gap, where the turns are fast and furious, I tend to get sloppy with body position. My biggest flaws in these situations are not getting my head forward/down enough, and not getting my opposite hip off of the saddle.

 

2. During dicey turns that leave me flustered (e.g. gravel, or unexpected decreasing-radius turns), I tend to abandon the RS position altogether. I don’t think I lean to the outside of the turn, but I’m pretty sure I end up centered symmetrically in the saddle, with my head on the centerplane of the bike. I think this is my survival instinct, something along the lines of “stay firmly planted on the bike” and “stay away from the pavement.”

 

Question to other RS graduates who assume the RS position whenever deviating from a straight line: Is this a deliberate effort to ingrain a habit of correct body position, so that your body will naturally go there even under duress (as in #2 above)?

 

Question to everyone: How do you overcome these damn survival instincts?

[philbytx]

Mitch,

Re: survival instincts.

 

IMHO the lessening of such instincts are correlated to the amount of getoffs you've had !!

 

Oh! and add the age factor as well

[Blake]

Survival instincts? So THAT'S what it's called!

 

Ok, seriously, and possibly a hijack, you bring up a good point from my side of things.

 

Given your description, I would say that I'm not "RidingSmart". As a matter of fact, it's EXTREMELY rare if I pull a knee out and lean into the corner in that fashion (obviously I have to lean at SOME point if I'm riding). I've heard some people say to lean over and forward going into the corner your approaching. I've heard others just say, "kiss the mirror". Right now, I think the best way to describe how I ride is, I basically just sit there and lean as needed, using all of my body weight to "tip" or "lean" the bike through the corner.

 

I've been riding for some 16 years just for the enjoyment of it, not intentionally looking to improve my riding skills, other than "behind the wheel" experience. So should I be doing something different for a future scenario (i.e. - knowing what to do in the event I come into a corner too hot (other than braking), collission avoidance, etc.)?

 

Thoughts, comments, suggestions.....

 

TIA!!!

[Paul Mihalka]

Interesting point. I have not done "RidingSmart" but read everything about it and think it is great instruction to widen rider's horizons and get rid of bad habits. I know I was practicing it by intuition waaay back when I was racing.

In my daily riding I do it partially, depending on the road and how intensely I want to ride. My arms/elbows are ALWAYS loose. I absolutely (I hope) never lean my body to the outside except in U-turns. First step is that I bend my inside elbow just a little more than the other one. From there it goes by steps. Bend the elbow a bit more, lean the body a bit to the front/inside, seriously bite the mirror and stick a knee out. I very rarely use the last step on the road, but definitely did it when I used to be on a track. OTOH I see no good reason to bite the mirror and stick a knee out in a turn with the bike still almost upright.

[bross]

Haven't taken the course but have been trying to do this on my own just from reading and now practicing. I think it's definitely a learned skill cause I too find it awkward at first but the more I do it the more natural it's feeling. And twice I have nailed it, where the corner just flowed nice and natural and almost like I was in slow motion. It definitely cuts your lean angle so I can really see the benefit if you get into a corner too hot.

 

I think the only way to make sure you use these skills in the "moment" is to practice them until they become your default behaviour. I'm definitely not there but it sure is fun practicing.

[Calvin (no socks)]

Mitch...Always....

Sometimes I take a single corner the way I used to...Late turn in and dive off of the fog line ...Just for practice...Kills the tires... reduces the smooth flow...

I used to push the bike down to get the lower angles...skinnier chicken strips...sketchy at best...

It just flows the RS way..

No worries....I am far from perfection...It is not the track!

I can add more throttle and enjoy...

I ride well within my limits so I can work the next day and live to ride another day...

[ShovelStrokeEd]

That was exactly my experience after taking the Riding Smart thing with David over Nashville way. BTW, it was part of the reason he said we were probably the worst group to have done it thus far.

 

After the weekend, I went over to the BRP and worked on it to groove my use of it. I never felt, during the time we were doing it, that I was riding at a pace that called for it. My fault, I should have picked it up a bit.

 

What I wound up doing was something of a comprimise. I felt silly applying the technique on slow speed corners or even medium ones. When I kicked it up a bit it proved very, very useful. Since I wasn't doing it all the time, every time, I too had trouble with execution on the really twisty roads.

 

I'm not afraid of lean angle and it doesn't generate much of a survival reaction in me until well after I have to move my foot to get my boot off the ground. I do appreciate the gain in traction and available lean angle from applying the tedhnique though, so here is what I did.

 

Worked on deliberatly turning in too late and coming in too hot for about 300 miles of mild sweepers on the BRP. I used the Riding Smart position as my bail out. IOW, if I was uncomfortable at the entrance to the corner, I would adopt the down and inside position as my correction, probably upsetting the bike a bit in the process until I really learned to use my legs to make my upper body light in the seat. Then I found I could pretty much do as I wished with the torso and the bike wouldn't get pissed at me.

 

That is how I use it now. If I have a good view of the turn, I pretty much don't bother, if uncertain at the point of turn-in or just before, I use it. Even if I find myself a little over my head, my survival reaction now is to get my torso down and my head over that mirror while unweighting the seat so as not to upset the bike. It has become my survival reaction and, to my great pleasure, has allowed me to up the pace a bit when needed.

[Couchrocket]

Question to other RS graduates who assume the RS position whenever deviating from a straight line: Is this a deliberate effort to ingrain a habit of correct body position, so that your body will naturally go there even under duress (as in #2 above)?

 

Mitch, interesting observations and questions.

 

After RS, I try to use the position/techniques as often as I can. In some circumstances it is probably completely unnecessary, but those times seem to me to be the perfect time to "practice and perfect" what I learned, so that at the other times when I really benefit from using what I learned, it comes more automatically.

 

I've also learned variations-on-the-theme that work for me in differing situations such as the rapid transitions of BRP that you mention. I'll concentrate just on upper body off center, rather than a true "bite the mirrors" body position adjustment. At my age and condition, that is doable quickly from one transition to another and provides some benefit over bolt upright, or worse yet, cross control.

 

Other times I'll use the off center w/ no real need to weight pegs a whole bunch... again just to keep the "movement to RS position" something that is normal to me.

[steve.foote]

Mitch, I struggled with this for quite a while. As a fresh RidingSmart graduate, it took me several months to really get it. Once I figured it out, it became a natural part of my riding, and I work hard to improve upon it.

 

A couple of observations about my own application of the RS technique as it applies to my riding.

 

1. I now rarely ride in any position other than the RS position. My weakness is keeping my back straight and chest out. I tend to slouch, and have to make a conscious effort to stay straight. Other than that, balls of feet on pegs, sitting towards rear of seat, loose on the bars, head and eyes up, leaning into every turn.

 

2. Survival instinct. When the turn tightens up, I now automatically lean farther into the turn. When the oh s**t moment arrives, my inner voice starts chanting "down, down, down." It's become enough of a habit that I'm having to reverse train myself when off road. (part of this may also be due to my favorable outcome doing just that during my get-off a couple years ago).

 

My adoption of the RS position has been a conscious effort which I have had to work very hard to internalize. It is still a work in progress, but the results have been significant for my riding.

 

It will be interesting to read what other RS grads have to say about your question. It's a good discussion to be having.

[Tasker]

Always, unless I'm being lazy, which is a lot.

 

This is what I know:

 

When I am riding poorly, and feel like I am riding poorly, I am not riding with RidingSmart in mind -- I'm not "approaching" my motorcyle with a sense of "intention", as we have discussed many times during a RidingSmart weekend.

 

As soon as I wake myself up and begin to "engage" my bike with intention, my riding immediately improves and I begin to have fun and I feel more confident and much more in control.

 

Mitch, I tend to have the opposite challenge than what you experience. On roads like the Cherohala and the BRP and the Foothills Parkway, I tend to be a bit lazy, but when the road tightens up, I tend to dig-in a bit more.

 

The trick is to always try and dig-in with our heads trying to eat the inside mirror -- forward, down and looking through the turn. Oh yeah, and the balls of our feet on the pegs.

 

Seems easy...

[Tasker]

My adoption of the RS position has been a conscious effort which I have had to work very hard to internalize. It is still a work in progress, but the results have been significant for my riding.

 

Ditto for me, as well.

 

One thing that I have learned this year, and something that I strongly feel may have contributed to my tiny little get-off last year is how important it is to lean as far forward toward the inside mirror when riding into a turn.

 

If you don't do this (read lazy), it is easy to unload the front wheel/tire, hence degrading your traction in a big way. By making sure you are on the rear of your seat and leaning/tucking in/forward, you will add traction to the front-end.

 

When I crashed, I know I was in the RidingSmart position -- partly, but I am mostly sure I was not leaning that far forward, which I believe, given the fact that the turn was tight and uphill, unloaded the front-end. Then I went for an interesting ride.

[David]

Mitch, here's my thinking on it.

 

First, I'd draw a distinction between what certain actions accomplish and what they symbolize, and then recognize that I might want to do something because of what it symbolizes even if it's not really providing any material effect. Putting my feet in the proper position and leaning forward are the two "switches" for me--first and always the feet, and then for a more intense engagement in the curve, lean forward. This just ensures that I'm present and intentional (thus the article we have everyone read by Jeff). The modules are taught in an order that's intended to mimic the escalation that comes from increasing speed.

 

Second, I rarely take the pure RidingSmart positioning to the extreme of "kissing the mirrors." In a 200 mile day of extreme twisties, there may be 2500 curves. Most of them (thinking of the Smokies, in this example) are momentum type curves that don't require a specific line or a full-on RS position. Say 70% of them are in that category. Then--under a more intense pace--25% of them would require the kiss the mirrors position. The remaining 5% would have me shifting about 4 inches in the seat and dropping my inside leg. All this assumes that I'm at a fairly intense pace--safe, but requiring all my concentration trying to show Todd who his daddy is. If I back off 15-20%, it's back to the normal feet and torso forward...and never a butt shift or dropped knee. Normally those indicate a pace that's seldom appropriate on the street, both to myself and to anybody watching. Shawn's pictures from the dragon last weekend are a good illustration of an engaged pace without exaggeration.

 

Third, about survival instincts. That's a really long discourse, obviously. If you could just pick one thing to work on, make it this: see more so that you aren't surprised as much. From there, you could pick five or six different things to work on (which I can elaborate on if you want). But for me, it all starts by taking more in so that I have time to process it and anticipate a response.

[Kinsley]

I try to implement the RS form whenever I ride. It becomes more intense as the lean angles are increased, but I use the basics all the time. A slight sweeper may only require a shift of weight to the inside butt bone which will slightly lean me towards the mirror, but maybe not enough to be noticed. Before a great road where the lean angles increase, I go through a check list (weight on the balls of the feet, butt back, knees tight, bend at the hips, light grip, etc.). I find myself getting out of the perfect form when I get tired, so I get a wake up call every now and then.

 

In an effort to improve skills rather than letting bad habits get too ingrained, it seems we all should work on weaknesses we know we have or that others point out to us.

 

Since taking the RS coarse, I feel I have the knowledge, but the proper implementation is sometimes difficult. My overall performance would probably be improved if I would just stop when I get tired instead of riding on with bad form because my legs or mid-section are tired.

 

The first place I fail is putting too much pressure on the handlebars. I don't squeeze the tank with my knees and my lower back can't support my upper body weight when braking.

[StretchMark]

Like you Mitch, I don't always use the complete RS position for more moderate riding. My lower body is typically correct and I always try to relax my arms, but I don't bother with the kiss the mirror thing at the more relaxed pace. I find it causes me to turn in too quickly at the slower pace. Once I kick it up a bit, I try to get right back into the correct position. Like others, I really have to work at it or I slip back into bad habits.

 

When things start going wrong for me, it's often a vision issue. Particularly on roads like Deals Gap, I start focusing on the road right in front of me instead of looking through the turn. When I narrow my focus, I tend not to get my body set up in time for the next turn. That ususally leads to me parking it in the turn after that.

 

When I step it up another notch on the track, I really have to fight the urge to put my head back over the center of the bike. When I am dragging my GS crashbars through the turns, that's usually a pretty good indicator that I've come back up and I'm pushing the bike down underneath me. I struggle with that more than anything.

[lawnchairboy]

I also thought that the pace during RS didn't justify the degree of mirror kissing we were doing but found the experience enormously useful nonetheless. The combo of kissing the mirrors, loose on the bars, light on the balls of the feet was a relevation for me and I can't say enough about the folks who spent their time trying to make us all better riders. I find myself trying to work on a fusion of MYRP and RS on the slab. On the rare occasions I find myself on the twisties I try and work on the RS principles but also have a healthy fear factor of gravel/road snot which keeps me riding pretty conservatively 90% of the time. I have really thought of the RS cornering/body positioning as something that may buy me out of trouble in a corner which I have overcooked or if I have to alter course in a corner resulting in a line I didn't necessarily want or expect. I try and play mental games with this scenario and chant "ride the bike, ride the bike, ride the bike". I KNOW the RS technique has bought me more available potential lean angle and better cornering technique as I was horrified watching my before/after videos from RS. I am planning on Code next year and hoping to really wring some stuff out and learn some more... I have tons to learn but felt like RS really opened a door for me.

[David]

I have really thought of the RS cornering/body positioning as something that may buy me out of trouble in a corner which I have overcooked or if I have to alter course in a corner resulting in a line I didn't necessarily want or expect.

 

Yes, and that's a primary reason behind a) leaving yourself margin and b) not counting on sliding your butt. Doing the latter upsets the bike when you can least afford to do that (at the edge of traction). But leaning your upper body off further does not upset the bike while giving you back some of that margin.

[Tasker]

I have really thought of the RS cornering/body positioning as something that may buy me out of trouble in a corner which I have overcooked or if I have to alter course in a corner resulting in a line I didn't necessarily want or expect.

 

Yes, and that's a primary reason behind a) leaving yourself margin and b) not counting on sliding your butt. Doing the latter upsets the bike when you can least afford to do that (at the edge of traction). But leaning your upper body off further does not upset the bike while giving you back some of that margin.

 

Yep, and it works beautifully!

 

One element to all of this that isn't talked about or considered much is the physical size of the rider.

 

I am considerably larger than, say, DCB. Shifting my upper-body around on my GS will affect what the bike does much more than that lean-machine Baker. And, I can affect what my bike does in a negative way much easier because I am tossing much more mass around.

 

We have a lot of "plus-size" riders here -- I know because I've eaten BBQ with many of them -- and this is an area that needs to be explored and considered.

[Tasker]

Question to other RS graduates who assume the RS position whenever deviating from a straight line: Is this a deliberate effort to ingrain a habit of correct body position, so that your body will naturally go there even under duress (as in #2 above)?

 

When I remember to apply the correct RS principles and then apply them in even the slightest applications, then yes, I do it to instill the habit.

 

How do you overcome these damn survival instincts?

 

I try to practice with self-created "situations."

 

As an example, I may pretend that a deer has just jumped out in front of me and I make the necessary adjustments to avoid it. I start slowly and increase my speed each time.

 

I realize that this will not compare to an actual event, but I hope that it might help with my reflexes and cause me to panic a bit less.

 

I try to ride with as much anticipation as possible.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Third, about survival instincts. That's a really long discourse, obviously. If you could just pick one thing to work on, make it this: see more so that you aren't surprised as much.

 

Not clear what is meant by "see more." Do you mean I should get more riding experience, or I should observe more details in any given cornering event?

 

The survival instink I described doesn't kick in very often, but it's extremely frustrating when it happens (and of course it increases the potential for disaster); you get through it and then think to yourself, dammit, I just did exactly the wrong thing back there.

 

The idea of riding with intention struck a chord. Intention requires (is?) conscious awareness of what you want to do, and if you can keep those intentions in your mind even as things get dicey, that might help to steel yourself to do the things that go against survival instinct when it tries to take over.

 

It was very satisfying to see so many responses to this thread; I feel better knowing i'm not the only one that struggles with some of these issues.

[David]

Third, about survival instincts. That's a really long discourse, obviously. If you could just pick one thing to work on, make it this: see more so that you aren't surprised as much.

 

Not clear what is meant by "see more." Do you mean I should get more riding experience, or I should observe more details in any given cornering event?

 

I'm talking about the latter.

 

For me, anyway, I don't think of riding well as a search for years of riding experience, much less "secrets" that unlock certain events. Instead, it all comes down to two things in riding (like most any sport):

 

1) Getting the fundamentals worked out. And those always start with body position and control, which is what the first module of RidingSmart is meant to cover.

 

2) Seeing more by taking in more data and having a mechanism to process it. That's what I mean with your quote above.

 

To illustrate the second point, think about someone who is struggling with cornering, the most obvious evidence being that they constantly correct the line as the corner unfolds. Stated more humorously, they carefully insert four or five apexes into what should be one. Why do they do this? It's not about how they are controlling the motorcycle or how they understand lines--it's because they don't see the whole corner because they're only looking in front of their nose. So they're surprised, and that's when survival instincts kick in.

 

So rather than addressing how to live through your own survival instincts, I'd rather you see that corner tightening up long before you get to that point so that you don't react with a survival instinct.

 

I've heard people talk about this, but until recently it's all been academic to me. Yet as as slowly climb and break through whatever the next level is in my own riding, it's nearly all coming from two things:

 

1) Maintaining the fundamentals, which I understand but can get lazy at implementing.

 

2) Taking in more information, more in advance, so that I'm several steps ahead of the bike as I anticipate and intend.

 

During and after every ride I take notes about what I'm doing well and messing up. That's not a chore to me--it's something I enjoy. And at every step, I'm intentionally two-minded: maintaining the fundamentals and taking in more information. I know exactly what my next weakness is, and I worked on it all four days of riding last week. Maybe if I learned quicker, I could work on more things concurrently.

[Woodie]

I try to practice as much as possible, even (especially?) when it's not "needed". Trying to build it into a real habit.

[johnt650]

I haven't taken the RS course yet but from what I've read and watched I have tried to emulate the position. I have attempted to incorporate it into my riding to varying degrees depending on the road. The last trip on the Cherohola gave me the best opportunity to work on it and I was extremely pleased with the improvement. I think the one of the things it has helped me with is being looser with the elbows.

[catattoo]

I love the ride smart method. It gives me a much more stable, in control feeling.

 

That being said I have trouble with it as I don't always use it. I try to use it most of the time so as to develop the muscle memory and just to get in the habit of employing it.

 

Left hand turns are my bane! At El-P Nick pointed out to me that I was not moving to my left as I was to my right. Once I made an effort to correct this the left handers came easier.

 

I often find myself mentally confused as to which position to take. Kinda like I noticed this trip that I can either sight-see or ride. When I mix the two I don't do either very well!

[Couchrocket]

When the turn tightens up, I now automatically lean farther into the turn. When the oh s**t moment arrives, my inner voice starts chanting "down, down, down."

Exactly! And, over time, the number of such moments has decreased dramatically to almost zero. Turns that would have at one time caused "a moment" are now routine. And, in my case I'm not talking about "fast" riding. Just my normal touring pace was enough "before" to raise my BP on some turns... left handers in particular. After RS and my practice of it, and implementation of it into my normal riding mode, I enjoy even my "slowness" more because I'm smoother, more in control, and have a much larger margin for adjustment when I do get surprised.

 

And while we're on the subject of RidingSmart, let me once again thank David for it, and both he and Senor 'Bounce' for their time, engergy, and effort in teaching those of us up in Santa Rosa. And Tasker who did the behind the scenes stuff for our class.

[David]

That was a great day! I still remember some of those roads vividly.

[russell_bynum]

That was a great day! I still remember some of those roads vividly.

 

Definitely. That was a blast!!

[chadhargis]

I've worked to make the RS body position a part of my regular riding posture. I've even had people make comments that I "body steer" into turns even when I'm going slow like I'm trying to strike a pose or something.

 

I've gotten so used to moving my upper body down and the the inside that it's second nature to me. In fact, when I ride my Goldwing with my wife, it feels unnatural to sit bolt upright on the seat and countersteer.

 

There have been a few times when I've come into a corner that tightened up, or had some debris in it that I didn't initially see and I've been in the right position to lean the bike harder without touching parts down or having to move my body at the last second. Proper body position gives me lean angle in reserve.

 

I ride with a lot of guys who brag about dragging pegs and their lack of chicken strips. I look at my Buell's pegs, and they have no scratches and my tires have a decent chicken strip on them, yet I'm able to ride at the same pace as the guys who are throwing sparks.

 

Not too long ago, a friend of mine and I were riding a very tight road. He is a "bolt upright" rider, and simply presses the bar to lean the bike. He came into the turn the same speed as me (I was right behind him), and he stood the bike up and ran wide while I made the turn. He commented that he felt the front tire push and he wasn't able to lean it any further as he was already on the edge of the tire.

 

I'm a big believer in body position. If you guys haven't seen these articles from Sport Rider, they are worth reading:

 

Focused and Relaxed

 

Body Position

 

I apoligize for the size of the first one. I scanned it in a bit large. It's got a lot of good info in it. I highlighted some of it.

[Ken H.]

I use it all the time. As much as I find it the most comfortable position for me, as for "sportiness." My back, legs, and arms are most comfortable when I am leaned forward and in, loose on the bars, balls of my feet on the pegs, etc.

 

Plus as mentioned, you never know when suddenly you're going to have to make an aggressive defensive move for some reason right now.

[Tasker]

Plus as mentioned, you never know when suddenly you're going to have to make an aggressive defensive move for some reason right now.

 

As if you had personal experience doing this...

[bross]

I apoligize for the size of the first one. I scanned it in a bit large. It's got a lot of good info in it. I highlighted some of it.

Thanks for the articles.

[Albert]

Mitch,

I struggled greatly after taking the RS course. It was obvious to me that years of accumulated bad habits weren't going to be easy to fix. For that reason I've tried to use the correct position almost exsclusively since taking RS this past summer. I could instinctively feel the difference but applying it on a subconscious level took a long time. I now find myself reducing perhaps the "exaggerated" position we used when learning the techniques but it has also now become the case that when I "fall back" on old habits, they are the good ones and not the bad. I even find myself in sweeper turns floating my hands just above the bars sometimes and focusing on foot and body position for my complete steering input. It's not something I do routinely and never in situations where traffic or limited vision could be an issue but it's a wonderful way to reinforce the role that total body input has on control. As others have said, when I come upon a situation (decreasing radius turn, unexpected road hazard, etc), my instinct has become to "revert" to the RS position rather than having to consciously think my way into it. I'm continuously amazed at what RS did for my riding. Thanks for providing a post where I could, once again, thank Steve, Mark, Jim, Shawn and the rest of the group for letting me be a part of it (oh, and of course David ).

[chadhargis]

Good way to practice. I strive to keep a gentle grip on the bars and use my legs and abs to support my weight.

 

One of the articles I posted above says to hold the grips as if they are a bird. Hard enough to not let it get away, but gentle enough not to squash it.

[Endobob]

This was a great thread to read even for those of us that have not yet been able to take a RS course. Thanks to all the contributors for your comments and thoughts. Any chance of another RS workshop/course being offered on the east coast again in the Spring?

 

I believe I am using the principles/positions described in the thread as the RS approach. I started riding more smoothly and with fewer heart palpitations after implementing the body positioning advocated by Lee Parks's in his book "Total Control" a couple of years ago.