When a neighbor cares, how hard to push back?

[GaryIF]

All,

See the e-mail from a neighbor to me (bottom), then me to him (top). He's not letting go (another note came back from him). My options are to a) tell him to take a hike or b) come up with more compelling facts. What'ya think?

--------------

Rick,

 

I appreciate your thoughtfulness. We all go through life constantly make risk/reward trade-offs. What factors into mine is, for example, my riding mentor. He is in his mid-50’s and has been riding since before he was 16 years old. He had one mishap as a teenager, none since. We were just at the wedding of good friends, second time for both. He is in his late-50’s and, too, has been riding since before 16. To some extent, it’s the gear (they both wear what bikers call ATGATT – all the gear, all the time) but it’s not the bike (one has 4 different ones plus a scooter, the other 2) nor is it luck (that’s a fool’s paradise). It’s the methods by which they minimize risks both in terms of how and where they ride. Mark’s early death is a tragedy. It really upset me because I knew him and knew the fullness of the life he led. From what you described, he was riding too fast for the circumstances. Tragically, your college friend assumed everyone obeys traffic signs. Remember what I said about how I deal with cars? My assumption is that every car will run a stop sign or red light. If they’re not yet stopped, even if I have the right of way, I stop. That’s a safe rider’s credo.

 

Riding a motorcycle safely requires a whole different mind set and way of thinking than driving a car. By the way, done properly, it can be safer than bicycling. Two friends of ours suffered tragic bicycle accidents, one a fatality, the other a near-life ending brain injury. Every time I learn of a motorcycle accident, I study it obsessively, constantly asking myself – what do I do differently than that rider to prevent it from happening to me?

 

So back to the point of risk/reward trade-offs. We all make them, whether they are about smoking, a lump, exercise, nutrition, and so on.

Flying – didn’t a quarterback get killed last week flying? JFK, Jr.?

Sports car – my brother was nearly killed when the rear axle broke unexpectedly on a Corvette he owned

Hang gliding – one of the hang gliders in the movie To Fly, shown at the Air & Space Museum, was killed during the filming of the movie

 

My riding is a personal decision my wife and I made together. I’d like to keep it that way.

 

Thanks for caring.

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Subject: Motorcycles

Importance: High

 

Gary:

 

OK, I know you just would rather that I not harp on this. You know I lost my brother, Mark, to a motorcycle accident. A friend just had his leg amputated below the hip after spending the better part of every day for the past 14 months working very hard to save it. This included spending 4 hours a day in a barometric chamber to enrich the oxigen flow to the bone and muscle mass. Now a close friend from my college days just lost her husband to a motocycle accident that was “other pilot” error. He was going 30 mph on a street in their little north Georgia town where no one is in a hurry and a car just ran the stop sign and broadsided him. The driver was not aware of any of the traffic. John had his daughter on the back. They were both thrown from the bike. He was pronounced dead on the scene – broken neck. They both had on full leather and full wrap helmuts. The daughter has a compound fractured Femur which she will spend the better part of the next 2 years in treatment and therapy working to recover.

 

I know they are fun to ride. I had one when I was 15. It was great fun. But they are taking or wrecking too many lives. I know you are very careful – very defensive, very aware of traffic and take all the precautions. You have worked hard to reduce the probability of causing or enabling an accident. But the fact of the matter is the rest of the world embraces a road ethic that erases all of that. The likelihood is that it will have nothing to do with your driving when the accident occurs. But it will matter not at all who is at fault. The result for you, your family and friends will be the same. You want to attend Jordon and Yale’s graduation and wedding, spoil your grandkids. Sure, live life to the point of tears (Kamus), but sell the bike. Get your pilot’s license, go hang gliding, buy a sailboat, get a sports car – any of these will provide safer recreation.

 

You know I am too busy to just write this on a whim.

 

Rick

[Firefight911]

agree to disagree and move on. Two opposing sides will never come to agreement on this issue, IMO.

 

Wave as you drive by, enjoy each other as neighbors and friends, steer motorcycling conversations to another topic with tact and respect.

 

Remeber, you can lead a horse to water, you can not make them drink.

 

YMMV, my $.02, IMHO!!!

[Blake]

agree to disagree and move on.

Perfect! You took the words right out of my mouth.

 

Given how you replied, I would say he's a good neighbor to you. Hence, I wouldn't say "take a hike", or justify yourself any further than you already have.

 

You may have to go through a distant time if he's not happy with your choice, but its exactly that, your choice.

 

Like Phil said, just my 2 cents, no change please.....

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

You could probably come up with some solid stats to quantify the risks (fatalities per hour, or some other measure) for the various activities he suggested, like flying or hang gliding. You can also probably quantify the effects of various safety measures (e.g. don't drink and ride? cut your risk of fatality by 50%). However, your neighbor is not thinking in terms of probabilities or risk management. He's unfortunately suffered the tragic loss of some very dear people in his life, and it's clouded his rationality: from those few incidents has concluded that you will inevitably meet the same end if you continue riding.

 

However, even if you took the trouble to quantify the risks for him, it's impossible to quantify the other half of the equation: reward. You've done the best you can do in stating it that way for him ("We all go through life constantly make risk/reward trade-offs..."), and that's really all you can do. The two of you have eloquently, passionately, and politely stated your cases; anything more would amount to beating a dead horse.

[Dave McReynolds]

The closest I've come to your situation has to do with a fence between my and my neighbor's backyards. The fence was falling down and rather than replace it, we decided to just rip it out and have no fence between our yards. Neither of us has children and our dogs get along. It makes our backyards look more open and we like it.

 

My mother, on the other hand, thinks it's a terrible idea because we both have pools, and she thinks someone from his backyard is going to fall into our pool and drown, after which I'll be sued for everything I own because I didn't properly secure my pool. I got a big lecture from her about it one day. I listened patiently, and thanked her for her concern.

 

If she brought it up again, I don't know how patiently I would listen the second time. I think it's okay to mention to someone when you notice they are doing something you consider unsafe, and I've done that from time to time in various motorcycling situations or in my other hobby, mountain climbing.

 

Continuing to dwell on something after your neighbor made his point, which you responded to much as I would have liked to, crosses into nagging, which I would probably mention at this point, in as polite a way as you can, since you apparently have the desire to retain his goodwill as a neighbor. But I think you have said all you need to about the reasons you want to motorcycle.

[Joel]

+1 on the agreeing to disagree. Neither of you is likely to convert the other. It is (or should be) OK that you choose to accept different levels of risk. Mature people should be able to get past that.

 

Be sure to emphasize to your friend how grateful you are that he cares enough to express that kind of concern. It isn't just killing him with kindness -- it really can be a blessing.

 

Your friend is right to point out that recounting justifications for your choice to ride can lead to a false sense of security. Training, practice and ATGATT might mitigate the risks to some degree, but all those risks are still there. However, that doesn't mean that you have to change your mind.

[Aluminum_Butt]

My riding is a personal decision my wife and I made together. I’d like to keep it that way.

 

I think this was a perfect way to say it. If he doesn't get it from there, then a polite "thank you for caring, but stop pushing it" is in order.

 

 

 

... or b) come up with more compelling facts.

 

There, unfortunately, aren't any compelling facts that will change his mind. Riding is dangerous. We do what we can to mitigate the risks and reduce the severity of injuries. But there's no way to argue that riding is safe.

[RFW]

There are two possible replies.....

 

1. "You must have me confused with someone who CARES about your opinion".

 

...and..

 

2. "Thanks for your advice" (followed by no further elaboration whatsoever).

 

Unless your neighbor has a habit of intruding in your affairs, I recommend the latter. In any event, do NOT go on about justifying the fact that you ride. It is not his business to know your reasons; you do not need to justify your actions to him.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

BTW, it seems that flying small planes is considerably more dangerous than motorcycling.

 

A very relevant and meaningful quote is at the top of that page.

[PrinceAZ]

Gary,

Just a short response that I use, to no one in particular, I lifted it from Reaper Ware. "Everybody dies, not everyone lives!" Just my $0.02.

Dick

[wrestleantares]

a) tell him to take a hike

 

Didn't you just tell him that:

 

My riding is a personal decision my wife and I made together. I’d like to keep it that way.

 

Seriously, he is being a bit pushy if he sent you a note after your response you put here. You know he is coming from a point of caring so I'd give the very nice route one more try. Something like:

 

Rick,

 

I really do appreciate what you are trying to say. You are a good neighbor and a good friend. But, this is a personal decision that I have made as part of the way I live my life. As a friend I understand your concerns, and read them thoughtfully and can respect your motivations. Now I ask you to respect the fact that I have heard your concerns and still stand by my decision to ride.

[EffBee]

In agreeing to disagree, leave him with something like this:

 

Last year we lost about 4,000 motorcyclists in the U.S. Yet we lost about 50,000 car drivers. Still, people continue to drive. And I’m not going to tell you to stop doing so because I’ve lost friends or relatives, or friends have lost limbs, all in automobile accidents.

 

If you want to talk about percentages on the road and related fatalities, then you’re succumbing to my position. Remove all of the motorcycle accidents where alcohol was involved. Remove all the ones where the rider was unlicensed. Remove all the ones where the rider was untrained. Remove all the ones involving riders with less than a year of experience. Remove all the ones where the rider wasn’t wearing the proper gear. Remove all the ones involving excess speed. And, since I belong to none of these categories, you will find that statistically for me, actual motorcycle fatalities last year were about 1,200 nationwide. And that compares much more favorably, with automobile fatalities.

 

Your arguments are emotional. And I understand that. But emotion is not logic, nor reason, nor accurate. It is, actually, biochemical. I thank you for your concern. You wish to live YOUR life YOUR way. I respect that. And I truly appreciate that you respect the exact same thing about me.

[David]

You only have discussions with people whose minds are open. The rest is simply posturing and needless tension.

[GaryIF]

In agreeing to disagree, leave him with something like this:

 

Last year we lost about 4,000 motorcyclists in the U.S. Yet we lost about 50,000 car drivers. Still, people continue to drive. And I’m not going to tell you to stop doing so because I’ve lost friends or relatives, or friends have lost limbs, all in automobile accidents.

 

If you want to talk about percentages on the road and related fatalities, then you’re succumbing to my position. Remove all of the motorcycle accidents where alcohol was involved. Remove all the ones where the rider was unlicensed. Remove all the ones where the rider was untrained. Remove all the ones involving riders with less than a year of experience. Remove all the ones where the rider wasn’t wearing the proper gear. Remove all the ones involving excess speed. And, since I belong to none of these categories, you will find that statistically for me, actual motorcycle fatalities last year were about 1,200 nationwide. And that compares much more favorably, with automobile fatalities.

This information is exactly what I was looking for. I hope to leave it be with the neighbor (he really is a nice fellow and there's a personal reason he's so wound up about biking - his brother was killed a year ago. Riding too fast (80 mph while approaching a highway exit), with too little experience (only a few weeks or so), with too big a bike (big Harley).

[Aluminum_Butt]

In agreeing to disagree, leave him with something like this:

 

Last year we lost about 4,000 motorcyclists in the U.S. Yet we lost about 50,000 car drivers. Still, people continue to drive. And I’m not going to tell you to stop doing so because I’ve lost friends or relatives, or friends have lost limbs, all in automobile accidents.

 

If you want to talk about percentages on the road and related fatalities, then you’re succumbing to my position. Remove all of the motorcycle accidents where alcohol was involved. Remove all the ones where the rider was unlicensed. Remove all the ones where the rider was untrained. Remove all the ones involving riders with less than a year of experience. Remove all the ones where the rider wasn’t wearing the proper gear. Remove all the ones involving excess speed. And, since I belong to none of these categories, you will find that statistically for me, actual motorcycle fatalities last year were about 1,200 nationwide. And that compares much more favorably, with automobile fatalities.

 

Your arguments are emotional. And I understand that. But emotion is not logic, nor reason, nor accurate. It is, actually, biochemical. I thank you for your concern. You wish to live YOUR life YOUR way. I respect that. And I truly appreciate that you respect the exact same thing about me.

 

 

With due respect, Fernando, I don't think it's possible to argue your way into motorcycling being safe. Based on the info that Mitch posted above, we are 18 times more likely to die on a MC than in a car in one million hours of operation. Even accounting for the factors you mention, it's still something like 6 times more likely.

 

Riding is an emotional decision. With few exceptions, we all own cages which are our primary means of transportation. We ride because we enjoy it - the adrenaline, the smells, the science of perfecting skills, etc. We each have our own reasons and risk tolerance. So, along with being an emotional decision, it's also a very personal one. The neighbor needs to respect that boundary.

[Spike]

BTW, it seems that flying small planes is considerably more dangerous than motorcycling.

 

Interesting that you brought this up. Though some of the other arguments mentioned here are spot on, and that is that statistics will rarely, if ever, trump emotion.

 

Statistics say that I am more likely to die flying my plane than when riding my bike, that is something that I have been open and honest about with my wife. However, Patti has always been more nervous about me riding than flying. To her the difference is that if I die in the plane, history has proven that it will more than likely be because I screwed up. If I die on a bike, to her, it will more than likely be because someone else screwed up. The former she could live with, the latter she couldnt.

 

If they aren't open to reason, then they aren't going to be swayed. Id say take the concern to heart, and then let it go.

[Dave McReynolds]

BTW, it seems that flying small planes is considerably more dangerous than motorcycling.

 

Interesting statistics. In reading them, I wonder how much the statistics are skewed by comparing activities with a very short duration of time actually spent engaged in the activity (skydiving) with activities with longer periods of time engaged in the activity (motorcycling and piloting a light plane). I would think that since motorcycling and flying are both done over many hours, the comparison in the chart would be valid, but I don't know about skydiving, which is done in just a few minutes, if you don't count preparation and the airplane ride up. Maybe 128 fatalities/million hours isn't bad compared to a lifetime of jumps that last maybe 15 minutes each?

[TN_R_Girl]

I'm with the majority -- agree to disagree and let it be. Further response will just continue the back and forth. Motorcycling, flying small planes, driving ... it's all dangerous to a certain degree.

[BFish]

he is your neighbor...not your wife or mother....agree to disagree. hope he hasn't jinxed you!

[Bakaboy]

agree to disagree and move on. ....Remeber, you can lead a horse to water, you can not make them drink.

 

 

Sure you can....just add salt into his feed for the 2 days before.

[Mike]

I read through all the other replies before deciding to add my own thoughts. I wouldn't bother arguing statistics. There are many valid and logical rejoinders to your neighbor's concerns. However, the guy just lost a brother. Another friend of his recently lost a limb. Your neighbor could be confronted with all the evidence in the world that motorcycling is the safest recreational activity known to man (it isn't, by the way) and he would still feel the same. His is an emotionally-driven viewpoint and you're not going to convince him with facts, figures, or ATGATT.

 

If he continues to push it, just make it clear that you grieve for his loss and sympathize with the friend who lost a leg. However, you are an adult who is aware of the risks and rewards of your choices, and you have made up your mind. You are grateful for his concern, but you do not want to discuss this any further.

[NEOHMark]

But the fact of the matter is the rest of the world embraces a road ethic that erases all of that. The likelihood is that it will have nothing to do with your driving when the accident occurs. But it will matter not at all who is at fault. The result for you, your family and friends will be the same.

 

IMO - that is the 'money' quote. The one that is total bullshit from those who don't ride - or those who don't care to learn the most likely risks.

 

What that statement says embraces is: the fact that *most* motorcycle accidents involve another vehicle but what it DOESN'T embrace is the fact that: *most* accidents that involve a motorcycle and another vehicle are SPECIFICALLY vehicles impeding he MC's right of way from either: A) turning in front of them from the opposite direction and B) encroaching the MC's right of way by pulling out in front of them from the 90 degree angle of their side.

 

What they fail to account for is - the "aware" motorcyclist REALIZES these are the two most frequent impediments to their right of way and accommodates it by: A) slowing down while encountering this type of situation and B) prepares an 'escape' route.

 

There are no gurantees in life - but the wimpy 'chicken littles' in life accommodate for NO preparedness by anyone who might encounter a life-threatening situation.

[Green RT]

This information is exactly what I was looking for. I hope to leave it be with the neighbor (he really is a nice fellow and there's a personal reason he's so wound up about biking - his brother was killed a year ago. Riding too fast (80 mph while approaching a highway exit), with too little experience (only a few weeks or so), with too big a bike (big Harley).

That is yet another reason that will make it very difficult for him to accept your decision. He might have to accept that his brother bore some responsibility for his fate. It is easier to blame the activity than it is to consider the personal decisions his brother made.

[Alan D]

You only have discussions with people whose minds are open. The rest is simply posturing and needless tension.

 

BINGO!

 

But do remind yourself that it's unusual to have a neighbor that genuinely cares. You must really be a nice guy!

[leikam]

Gary, it sounds like your neighbor has far too much emotional baggage tipping his scales for any arguments to make any difference. A life well lived is the best reply.

[Volfan615]

Flying – didn’t a quarterback get killed last week flying? JFK, Jr.?

 

Actually it was a pitcher for the Mets.

 

The quarterback (Roethlisberger) was the one nearly killed in a bike accident.

[bakerzdosen]

Flying – didn’t a quarterback get killed last week flying? JFK, Jr.?

 

Actually it was a pitcher for the Mets.

 

The quarterback (Roethlisberger) was the one nearly killed in a bike accident.

Sorry, but this is kinda funny correcting the correction... Lidle (the pitcher) played for the Yankees.

[philbytx]

Concerning the Lidle crash....all the facts are not in yet but, in essence, we see a low time pilot who bought a higher performance aircraft with different control inputs. An all too familiar scenario in our two wheel world

[Timmer]

Interesting statistics. In reading them, I wonder how much the statistics are skewed by comparing activities with a very short duration of time actually spent engaged in the activity (skydiving) with activities with longer periods of time engaged in the activity (motorcycling and piloting a light plane). I would think that since motorcycling and flying are both done over many hours, the comparison in the chart would be valid, but I don't know about skydiving, which is done in just a few minutes, if you don't count preparation and the airplane ride up. Maybe 128 fatalities/million hours isn't bad compared to a lifetime of jumps that last maybe 15 minutes each?

 

Having 1483 jumps to my name, I think I can respond to this... I was surprised by this number too. But the math checks out when you allow 4-5 minutes per jump for the time elapsed from the leaving the aircraft to landing.

 

There's an average of around 30 fatalities per year for about 3 million skydives each year in the USA. Of those fatalities, 2-3 are true unavoidable failures of the parachute to open properly. Another 1-2 are due to medical causes. The balance are various bad piloting events where the equipment operates properly, but the pilot(skydiver) makes an error in judgement.

 

Statistics, no matter how positive, will not overcome emotion.

 

Agree to disagree, respect each others position, and move on.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

He's not letting go (another note came back from him).

 

When I wrote my first response I didn't realize that he had replied to your well-written response to his first note. As has been discussed, stats aren't going to sway your neighbor. If you haven't already responded, I'd suggest a simple repeat of the final lines from your initial response:

 

My riding is a personal decision my wife and I made together. I’d like to keep it that way.

 

Thanks for caring.

 

It's polite, it acknowledges his concern, but confirms that you now consider the subject closed.

[Laura]

No matter what you say you're not going to change his mind about motorcycling so agree to disagree.

 

We're all going to die. Many just exist while waiting for that to happen instead of living and relishing every moment. I'll take my chances.

[Carnadero]

He's had his say, and you want to keep on riding, so that's it. End of discussion.

 

The manner in which you decide to tell him this is entirely up to you. If you don't care to discuss the matter with him any further, avoid the more-compelling-facts route.

[Dave McReynolds]

But the math checks out when you allow 4-5 minutes per jump for the time elapsed from the leaving the aircraft to landing.

 

There's an average of around 30 fatalities per year for about 3 million skydives each year in the USA.

 

I wasn't disputing the accuracy of the statistics, just the interpretation thereof. I would infer from the chart that skydiving is a much more dangerous activity than either small plane piloting or motorcycling.

 

However, using your statistics of 30 fatalities a year, and a figure I found on the internet of 245,000 people involved in skydiving, the chances of dying in a skydiving accident in a given year would be about .0001 (30/245,000).

 

There are about 4,500 fatalities a year in motorcycling, with about 9,000,000 people who motorcycle; therefore, the chances of dying in a motorcycling accident in a given year would be about .0005.

 

The chart referred to off-road motorcycling deaths, and I wasn't able to find statistics for that sub-set of motorcycling. However, I would think that the death rate, as opposed to injury rate, of off-road motorcycle accidents, is less than that of motorcycling as a whole due to the slower speeds involved, so I hope my use of overall motorcycle fatalities still illustrates my point. And of course, my simple quotent ignores all the things we know we can do in motorcycling, and that skydivers could probably do in skydiving, to tilt the odds in their favor.

 

But viewed in the way I present it above, motorcycling seems to be a more dangerous activity than skydiving. Statistics....

 

If anyone responds to this post, please don't take it as an indication of lack of interest on my part if I don't respond again. I'm about to leave on a 10 day road trip today up the Oregon and Washington coast, and no doubt the forum will have moved on by the time I return.

[NEOHMark]

We're all going to die. Many just exist while waiting for that to happen instead of living and relishing every moment. I'll take my chances.

 

Amen and Hallelujah!!

[beemerfan]

I liked the suggested reply, "Thank you for your advice." He's not going to change and somehow I doubt you will.

 

In the FWIW category - I've had three near misses on motorcycles that would all have been very serious accidents in a car. In two cases, I found myself almost face-to-face with a four-wheeled vehicle rounding a blind curve in my lane. In the other one, a car pulled out to pass an 18-wheeler the driver couldn't see around. In all cases, being on a bike allowed me to hug the shoulder and skate by. In a car they would have been head-ons. These were all commuting encounters, not backroad joy-riding.

 

The way I see it, bike riding has already helped me cheat fate three times. Besides, I think when it's your time, you're going to go - even if it just from falling out of a rocking chair. I personally prefer to live rather than exist.

[Paul De]

I would have not responded at all. Nothing to be done here except flag his e-mail address as junk. Since you felt compelled to respond and potentially opened up never ending dialog with this neighbor, I suggest a little evil fun can be had. If he comes back with yet another letter concerning your safety, respond by sending him links to news articles of tragic outcomes related to whatever activity you see him doing. You see him mowing his lawn; send him the article of the guy who was killed when the lawn tractor flipped. See him sipping a martini; send him an article of someone who choked on an olive. I'm sure he’ll soon appreciate your concern for his safety in the same way you have about his concern for yours.

[Couchrocket]

No need to "push" at all.... just thank them, and then commend them for feeling so confident in your relationship to broach such subjects -- then tell them you've been meaning to talk to them about "some things" and now feel the freedom to do so... and that you'll get back to them soon with the list.

[GaryIF]

If he comes back with yet another letter concerning your safety, respond by sending him links to news articles of tragic outcomes related to whatever activity you see him doing. You see him mowing his lawn; send him the article of the guy who was killed when the lawn tractor flipped. See him sipping a martini; send him an article of someone who choked on an olive. I'm sure he’ll soon appreciate your concern for his safety in the same way you have about his concern for yours.

First of all, thank you, everyone, for the responses and engagement on this topic. The wisdom from this forum is always helpful.

 

As to the suggestion above, the neighbor did, indeed, respond to my note, partly accepting the thoughtfulness of my decision but also reiterating his view of the danger. I've not responded, rather have choosen to move on unless he brings it up again next time we see each other on the street. As to his less-than-risk-free activities? Well, here goes:

- His wife smokes regularly; he smokes socially

- He and his wife have a few glasses of wine or a stiff drink or two nearly daily. No biggy, but they then drive without giving it a second thought.

- When their daughter was four or so, she'd find her way out of the house routinely, unattended, nearly getting hit by a car, not yet having good street-crossing habits. "Oh my" was about the sum total of their concern when we'd find her in the street and walk her back home or just have her play at our house and let them know where she was.

- He hunts and just keeps his shot-gun in a somewhat accessible place in their home (remember point above about daughter; there are now two children)

 

I could go on with a few other aspects of life-threatening risks in his life but I think you all get the drift. It is tragic about his brother but, to Fernando's factoids way before - his brother fits the high risk profile: was unlicensed, had no formal training, had only been riding a short period, was riding at an excessive speed, and was on a bike way beyond the means of a beginner.

[Baba_ORiley]

... As to his less-than-risk-free activities? Well, here goes:

- His wife smokes regularly; he smokes socially

- He and his wife have a few glasses of wine or a stiff drink or two nearly daily. No biggy, but they then drive without giving it a second thought.

- When their daughter was four or so, she'd find her way out of the house routinely, unattended, nearly getting hit by a car, not yet having good street-crossing habits. "Oh my" was about the sum total of their concern when we'd find her in the street and walk her back home or just have her play at our house and let them know where she was.

- He hunts and just keeps his shot-gun in a somewhat accessible place in their home (remember point above about daughter; there are now two children)

...

 

Not to suggest you start a turf war, but those actions of his (and his wife's) show some serious lack of judgement. (or, so it could be argued)

 

I am reminded of the old saying: "People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones".

 

So, is his house tinted?

 

 

 

 

 

 

,

[KCSheila]

Is there any need to respond back in any manner regarding this topic. If you email back and forth, simply continue ON A DIFFERENT TOPIC. He is thinking with his heart now, cares and respects you as a neighbor and has rendered his opinion. One thing is a fact: YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE HIS MIND. No need to try, no need to continue the discussion.

 

If he insists, you have the option of responding or just letting it drop. I think you have already stated your position, very tastefully, and the time to end this discussion is now. If he continues to send emails like this, let it go over your head and email back something totally unrelated. Just stop the discussion because the ball is all in your court to do that. Simple????

[jackflash]

No answer is an answer.

[AdventurePoser]

The world is full of things to disagree on...why not be good neighbors and friends and just move on. It's ok to disagree!

 

Cheers,

Steve in So Cal

[EffBee]

In agreeing to disagree, leave him with something like this:

 

Last year we lost about 4,000 motorcyclists in the U.S. Yet we lost about 50,000 car drivers. Still, people continue to drive. And I’m not going to tell you to stop doing so because I’ve lost friends or relatives, or friends have lost limbs, all in automobile accidents.

 

If you want to talk about percentages on the road and related fatalities, then you’re succumbing to my position. Remove all of the motorcycle accidents where alcohol was involved. Remove all the ones where the rider was unlicensed. Remove all the ones where the rider was untrained. Remove all the ones involving riders with less than a year of experience. Remove all the ones where the rider wasn’t wearing the proper gear. Remove all the ones involving excess speed. And, since I belong to none of these categories, you will find that statistically for me, actual motorcycle fatalities last year were about 1,200 nationwide. And that compares much more favorably, with automobile fatalities.

 

Your arguments are emotional. And I understand that. But emotion is not logic, nor reason, nor accurate. It is, actually, biochemical. I thank you for your concern. You wish to live YOUR life YOUR way. I respect that. And I truly appreciate that you respect the exact same thing about me.

 

 

With due respect, Fernando, I don't think it's possible to argue your way into motorcycling being safe. Based on the info that Mitch posted above, we are 18 times more likely to die on a MC than in a car in one million hours of operation. Even accounting for the factors you mention, it's still something like 6 times more likely.

 

Riding is an emotional decision. With few exceptions, we all own cages which are our primary means of transportation. We ride because we enjoy it - the adrenaline, the smells, the science of perfecting skills, etc. We each have our own reasons and risk tolerance. So, along with being an emotional decision, it's also a very personal one. The neighbor needs to respect that boundary.

 

Sorry it took me a couple of days to get back to this. Been distracted.

 

Bob, you're right. But you're also wrong in that my intent was not to argue into motorcycling being safe. It isn't. Nothing is safe. But there are degrees of safety, mostly controlled by the risks we add to the risks we take. Being trained, licensed, experienced, protected, cautious/defensive, and dressed for the possibility all reduce our chances of serious injury or worse. But they don't eliminate it nor do they make it equal to riding in a car. Just more favorable than if these factors are not eliminated.

 

As for not answering, I usually try to give it my best shot. Once. After that, I do as many of you suggest. "Thanks for your concern." And I move on. As David said, if the other mind is not open and receptive, you're wasting your time.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

How about, "I enjoy being your neighbor. If this discussion keeps up you will surely lose me, whether I crash my motorcycle or not!"

[maxscycle]

If the water is deep enough, you can make him/her drink....

[bvaughan]

He's not letting go (another note came back from him). . . .What'ya think?

I had a consultant over from England who had a year before lost a 20something biker son to a diesel slick on a roundabout. Everytime he spoke to me he ended with a stop-riding plea. I realized it was part of his unfinished grieving. I'd just listen and then shrug with a sheepish smile. Eventually he moved on. Speaking of England, I know lots of folks who "ride (horses) to hunt (chasing the fox, or now, the phoney scent bag). Basically all of them have had a close friend or family member eat it, usually with a head injury. None of them, however, ever suggest that hunting should be given up, as the dangerous/feudal/militaristic/useless/class arrogance/anachronistic activity that it is. Nobody,that is, who has ever ridden. There is often great joy in doing dangerous things. Today I traversed the infamous Sierra Crest Highway north of LA at 215 mph end to end. in a plane. could have been a little dodgy if i'd had an engine out. but it was a brilliant flight, and one that i'll remember happily for (hopefully) a long time. but you can't extoll the joy of flight to the survivors of someone who became a lawn dart. it's a hurtful, futile exercise.

[Carnadero]

Everytime he spoke to me he ended with a stop-riding plea. I realized it was part of his unfinished grieving. I'd just listen and then shrug with a sheepish smile.

I'd have listened to it once, maybe twice if he was a good friend. There would, however, be no third time regardless of who it might be.