Starting on an incline

[mrfbuyer7]

Is there a thread, similar to this one, for taking off on a mild to steep incline. That is what gives me the most trouble.

 

(Moderator edit - a new thread works best...)

 

Coming from a Vmax - all I needed was a little blip of the throttle (not to mention it was a bit lower) and I was good to go. I find it a lot more difficult on the RT. I love the RT, but I do miss that crazy 1st gear power of the Vmax. I am still in the break in period on the RT, 600 miles in a week. Thanks

[Wooster]

mrfbuyer7,

 

In most situations, 2500 rpm and gradual clutch release gets bike going up hill. Boxer's clutch can take it.

 

Wooster

[Volfan615]

I feel your pain. This has been one of the most difficult things for me to get right on the RT. I'm much better with it now than I was day 1. It just takes some practice. Mild inclines now I just release brakes and then clutch to the point it wants to engage then increase throtle slightly and take off. May roll backward just a bit depending on incline. On steep inclines I hold the rear brake and release it just as I feel the cluth about to engage. This takes a lot of practice not to stall the engine. At least it has for me. Good luck!

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Really no different than starting off on a level surface. Bring clutch to point of engagement, feed in more clutch, feed in more throttle at the same time to keep the revs even. By about 1500 RPM or so, the clutch can be fully engaged and just keep on feeding in throttle till it's time to shift.

 

I use my front brake rather than the rear as a hill holder and modulate the throttle with the outer two fingers and the palm of my hand. Even on a pretty steep inlcine, I rarely need to let the revs get ahead of the clutch. Just let the whole process take a bit longer.

[tobyzusa]

Unless you have that sag problem that you helped me diagnose Ed, then you're screwed on an incline. Turned out that a piece in the throttle advance was busted so the cable was pulling unevenly and getting the TBs out of synch. Part has been on order for a week now...but I digress......

[MotorinLA]

Now, if you’ve been following this forum for any amount of time you’ve probably noticed that Ed usually has some pearls of wisdom to offer about riding. However, since he clearly came out of his mother’s womb already astride a motorcycle, it may not be that easy for those of us with only a moderate amount of natural motorcycle talent to aquire his skills.

 

I use my front brake rather than the rear as a hill holder and modulate the throttle with the outer two fingers and the palm of my hand. Even on a pretty steep inlcine, I rarely need to let the revs get ahead of the clutch.

 

That being the case, there are some other things you can do to improve your skills in incline starts.

 

Despite the fact that the RT uses a dry clutch, you can still feather the clutch to adjust the amount of transmission engagement. A good way to increase your clutch/throttle control is to practice in a safe area. Find a parking lot or similar area with a slight incline and practice riding as slowly as you can uphill. Control your speed by adjusting the amount of clutch and throttle you’re applying. This allows you to get used to adjusting your RPMs to avoid stalling as you let the clutch engage and also familiarizes you with the “gray area” of your clutch (the area of travel in the clutch where the engine is just starting to engage).

 

It takes awhile to get used to increasing your RPMs without felling like you’re over-revving your engine. In the beginning you may need to use more RPMs than what is actually needed to keep the motor from stalling. However, as you get more proficient with your clutch/throttle control you will be able to bring your RPMs back down without stalling the motorcycle.

 

This exercise can be hard on your clutch, so try to keep your training sessions reasonably short. If you start smelling an acrid burning odor it’s definitely time to stop.

 

Incidentally, learning good clutch/throttle control will also be beneficial to you when doing very tight, low speed turning maneuvers, where it is essential to keep sufficient power to the rear wheel to keep the motorcycle from falling over while at a steep lean angle.

 

Hopefully this advice will help without melting your clutch…

[ShovelStrokeEd]

No mad skills here, but thanks for the compliment. I have been riding on a regular basis, for only 48 of my 64 years so I did manage to spare Mom the pain.

 

Really, there are two key points to this.

 

The first is that engagement point for the clutch. To be smooth about this and minimize the danger of stalling you must find the 'feel'. Best way is to start on level ground. Bike in gear, brake of your choice applied, motor at idle. Now s l o w l y allow the clutch lever to come out till you feel the bike wanting to move a little. You are almost there. Now let it out just a little more till the RPM's drop just a bit. That is the engagement point. You are not meant to stay there very long, but you will now have removed all the slack from the driveline.

 

Now to the throttle. With all the slack out of the driveline, add just enough throttle to bring the revs back up to idle or a little more while releasing the brake. The bike should start to move smartly away. You are almost done. Add a little more clutch and, as you feel the engine pull down, feed in a little more throttle.

 

All this took much longer to type or read than the actual process. It is a feel thing. Rather than a series of actions. When done properly it will feel like you are pulling the bike ahead by your throttle action. The clutch is actually engaged by one smooth move from the point of engagement to full out. You chase the clutch with the throttle, keeping engine RPM more or less constant.

 

When you start out, a little extra RPM won't hurt anything and may give you some confidence that you won't stall the bike while you are getting smooth at it. So, 1500 RPM or so at first probably wouldn't be a bad idea. BTW, don't be looking down at the tachometer. Learn what 1500 RPM or whatever you choose feels and sounds like. Your eyes need to be up and looking out for the horizon so as to keep the bike nice and straight as it starts to move. If it is straight up and down and you do stall, you have only to put down a foot to catch it, if it is leaning, you might be too late with your foot.

[philbytx]

Ok...Follow Ed's great advice and here's a neat little exercise for you.

To really learn your clutch, try the following.

Get the bike warmed up and idling nicely...now, please note you will NOT use the throttle during this exercise.

As Ed said, eyes up and forward...the intention of this exercise is to "body learn" your clutch friction zone....slowly feed your clutch out until it almost stalls and as the bike eases forward DO NOT STALL THE MOTOR. Concurrently feed and tippy toe the bike along, until the clutch is all the way out and at this time you then bring your feet up as you slowly pull away. Do this a few times and you will really get to know your friction point. Now, if you have problems pulling away because the motor stalls, restart the bike and follow the above but then ease your clutch lever back a "smidgeon" so that the motor DOESN'T stall, tippy toeing the bike and concurrently feeding the clutch lever until the clutch lever is all the way out and you are moving. At this point your feet should be up on the pegs.

 

It took my missus about 5 minutes to get this down pat on her bike. We then practiced hill starts but using the rear brake method. Some folks prefer the front brake on hill starts, some the rear...I'm a rear brake guy myself

[mrfbuyer7]

Thanks everyone, for all the great advise and help on this topic. I really appreciate it. Mark

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Another point to this is that is exactly the way to do a really hard, dragstrip style, or roadrace launch. The difference is in the starting RPM, usually north of about 5K and the goal (now focus is on keeping the front wheel down). The clutch action and more particularly the clutch/throttle interaction is almost exactly the same. This time, you just pin the throttle and try to keep the load on the motor such that the revs hold between around 7K to 9K or so RPM while modulating the wheelstand with the rear brake.

 

It is the only way to win a drag race and a key to being ahead of the pack down into turn one. Not for the timid or slow of reflex though.

[chrisx]

i had some issues with that as well. and still do from time to time. 2 things. a warm engine is more tractable and the clutch will feel different in 4k miles after it breaks in. you have to get the smoke out of it. i did. i find that it takes a little more aggressive behaviour on hills. as such i will let the vehicle in front of me get a bit of distance. it is the amount of time you spend slipping the clutch that is bad. not the rate of energy required for a quick start. to me the beemer is geared to tall in 1st and two short in second. if you are riding two up on a hill, it really takes some work to get it going. hang in there though, the dry clutch takes some getting used to. my first 500 miles were horible. now at 5k i feel much better.

enjoy.

[wrestleantares]

Being in the mountains - inclines are just something you learn to become smooth and confident on. It is certainly more difficult to do so if inclines are a rarity.

 

I usually use my front brake to hold, mainly because on a steep incline - with a tall bike and short legs - I feel more stable with both feet down.

 

I let off the clutch until engagement begins, and try to smoothly ease the throttle so as not to get my revs ahead of my engagement. It is crucial to have your front brake lever in a comfortable position to be able to do this, and perhaps years of riding two-fingered on the front brake has given me a strong throttle/brake release feel.

 

However, I just recently changed over to winter gloves and had to readjust - Started going backwards (slightly) and then popped off the line giving too much throttle and dropping the clutch too fast. The feel of the bike in those gloves is so different.

[Baba_ORiley]

I'm trying to understand this topic, but I'm not trying to offend anyone.

Got a question: Are the riders who perhaps have some difficulty starting their bikes on an incline, regular drivers of automatic automobiles?

 

The reason I ask is that a driver of a manual shift car -- someone who drives one on a regular basis -- is very familiar with starting on hills. Starting a car on a hill is really no different than starting a bike on a hill.

 

But on the other hand, I guess a driver who concentrates on automatic transmission cars/trucks, may have to develop this starting skill for motorcycle use which he/she does not already have for automotive use.

 

Just trying to sort this out.

 

 

.

[mrfbuyer7]

BaBa,

 

Although my current truck is an automatic, I have been driving stick shift cars/trucks, tractors, etc, for years. As I mentioned, I even rode a little old Vmax, prior to the RT. Oh yeah “Stick” shift is the same as a manual transmission, not trying to offend – just helping you out. I was just trying to get a little constructive help from RT riders and so far almost everyone on this forum has been just great and very very helpful.

 

Keep sorting, maybe you will figure something out.

[Volfan615]

Starting a car on a hill is really no different than starting a bike on a hill.

 

Apples and oranges if you ask me.

[Baba_ORiley]

Starting a car on a hill is really no different than starting a bike on a hill.

 

Apples and oranges if you ask me.

 

 

How's that? You basically need to match engine rpm's against the clutch's friction zone while gently releasing the brake.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

There is one teeny, tiny, almost infinitesimal difference...........The car won't fall over if you stall it.

 

Well, that and the fact that all the controls are different and operated by different parts of the body. Yes, the principles are the same, the execution won't necessarily be.

[AlanBrown]

I hear a lot about the MSF course in the US, and from this thread, I can safely assume that starting a bike on an incline is NOT part of the course. Really ought to be. It certainly is in the UK. You can easily fail the test for your license if the bike rolls back. (Actually, the same applies for the regular car driving test here - roll back on an inclined start = fail.)

 

The official instruction for the procedure is just as everybody has described it here in terms of finding the biting point of the clutch. However, we are very firmly instructed to use the rear brake not the front, presumably so that as learners we are not trying to do two things with the same hand at the same time. Using front brake for fear of falling over does not hold water, I'm afraid. A slight lean to the left is all that's necessary to get your left foot planted firmly on the ground AND have the right foot dedicted to holding the rear brake.

[Wooster]

The official instruction for the procedure is just as everybody has described it here in terms of finding the biting point of the clutch. However, we are very firmly instructed to use the rear brake not the front, presumably so that as learners we are not trying to do two things with the same hand at the same time.

 

Alan,

 

I wonder if the rationale for use of rear vs front brake is historic. Before the dawn of motorcycle disc brakes, bikes that aspired to "hotness" (e.g., Triumph Daytona, Bonneville; BSA Lightning, Bultaco Metrella, even BMW /5 series) typically had twin leading shoes in front drum brake vs one leading and one trailing in rear. The lack of trailing shoe made the front brake ineffectual at stopping rearward motion.

What with the ubiquitous discs on bikes' front and rear wheels, either has rearward retarding power.

OTOH, your supposition of possibility for confusion stemming from right hand doing two tasks, i.e., front brake and throttle, may be justification for rear brake use here.

 

Wooster w/memories of those beautiful alloy sweeping airscoops on old leading shoe brakes.

[MWS]

Why not use the rear brake?

[Wooster]

Why not use the rear brake?

 

Nothing against rear here; sometimes I'll use pedal to secure bike on incline, othertimes, hand lever. It probably depends on my mood (though I can imagine a situation, i.e., up hill incline where road also slopes away on left side leaving my 30 inch inseam most comfortably planting right foot).

Truth told, many of our board's discussions tax me in that I hadn't focussed on the particular in years; like the Nike AD says, I just do it.

 

Wooster

[MWS]

Reminds me of the time I read detail accounts of clutch engagement and promptly went out and stalled the bike.

After going back to not thinking about, I discovered I was properly engaging it anyway.........paralysis by over analysis?

[philbytx]

Alan,

Forget the basic MSF BR"Course", as it is nothing more than a series of exercises on starting a bike, stopping a bike and going around and around in a parking lot. Sadly, it is just a JOKE as far as proper bike handling and street training goes.... !

 

In essence, it is run by the motorcycle manufacturers and their stooges....and, sadly, has become very politicized

[Baba_ORiley]

Forget the basic MSF BR"Course", as it is nothing more than a series of exercises on starting a bike, stopping a bike and going around and around in a parking lot. Sadly, it is just a JOKE as far as proper bike handling and street training goes.... !

 

In essence, it is run by the motorcycle manufacturers and their stooges....and, sadly, has become very politicized

I agree that the MSF basic rider course's application to real world street riding is very limited, however it does provide important fundamentals. This may be damning it with faint praise, but it is better than no motorcycle riding training at all.

 

 

 

.

[philbytx]

Agreed...but it is still entirely insufficient for real world application

[Volfan615]

Agreed...but it is still entirely insufficient for real world application

 

It's the "B"RC course. For beginners. The have to teach to the lowest common denominator. I don't know about your area but here the courses are very independent from the dealers and the rider coaches are excellent! Maybe you would gain more from the ERC. Have you taken it?

[philbytx]

I was not referring to my goodself in this case. As far as rider coaches go, in general, they are a nice bunch of guys most of whom realize that SOME training is better than no training at all. And, given the circumstances, generally do the best they can.

 

And I do know about which I speak...

Although an experienced rider with a license, I took the BRC course with my wife for moral support. We both rode Nighthawk 250's on the course (I was riding my RT TO the event!!) and, yes, it did refresh my ageing mind of some of the basics. I also had a great time talking (and sharing a couple of beers afterward) with the two rider coaches on our particular course. Both were GW riders (old 1200 and new 1800) in their 50's with a wealth of experience, patience and a sense of humour! After we both passed the course (and got the T-Shirt ) she bought a Nighthawk CB750 and we then regularly rode to a local mall early on a Sunday a.m. to build upon her skillset. She freely admitted that the course didn't prepare her for the road.......and I agreed with her assessment.

 

Also, my comment was in reply to an earlier post from a gentleman in the U.K. who mentioned the MSF course and was directed toward the MSF BRC and the inadequacy of INITIAL rider training in the U.S. in general...

 

Sad to say that anyone that is given a license just because they took and passed the MSF BRC (or any other manufacturer inspired course!) is either deluding themselves (or being deceived into thinking) that they are adequately trained for the REAL world. IMHO - The courses are there to sell bikes and not adequately train riders.

 

My preference would be for the European/Japanese graduated scale method.....

[ShovelStrokeEd]

My preference would be for the European/Japanese graduated scale method.....

 

I was in Japan a couple of years ago and had a translator with me. One of their schools for licensing was right across the street from where we were working. Being a busybody and a motorcyclist, I went over and had a chat with them.

 

4 solid days of instruction leading to some very advanced skills. I doubt many here could pass their swerve course. It was never clear which level of license the students were applying for, but let me tell you, those who passed, and many did not, came out of there competent to control their bike in almost any situation. BTW, it cost the equivilant of $4K US and was mandatory. That was back in the late '80s.

 

Can you imagine the uproar here if such a thing was made a requirement to obtain a motorcycle endorsement? Not that I would consider it a bad thing given the level of skill I see on a daily basis on our streets. I can envision a weeping and gnashing of teeth of biblical proportions though.

[philbytx]

Ohhhhh Nooooo!

In the U.S. you cannot have a test, especially associated with a consumer item, that is too difficult y'know - it's positively Un-American !

 

Remember, all the stupid and illiterate people have feelings and desires too you know.........

[Francois_Dumas]

Ohhhhh Nooooo!

In the U.S. you cannot have a test, especially associated with a consumer item, that is too difficult y'know - it's positively Un-American !

 

Remember, all the stupid and illiterate people have feelings and desires too you know.........

 

 

Wow! Really !!!??

[Ken H.]

Well I think your being a bit hard on the MSF BRC there Phil.

 

Keep in mind it's purpose - to teach someone who has never been on a motorcycle before the very bone basics of how to operate one. Nothing more. And for that stated mission I think it does admirably well. People who are scared of the motorcycle at 8 AM on Day-1 are successfully riding it by 4 PM on Day-2.

 

And for the overall popularity and acceptance of our sport, that's not a bad thing.

[Boffin]

In the UK we have a basic training course called CBT - Compulsory Basic Training. It is a gateway to riding and you are not allowed to ride on the roads without passing it. It is run by approved training organisations and consists of two parts. The first part is on a closed area, riding round cones etc, with dummy intersections and roadways. This is run in a half day and includes instruction as needed. If, and only if, the instructor thinks the trainee is ready, they are taken out into real traffic on real roads. If they can demonstrate that they can handle this they pass, otherwise they fail. Most, but by no means all, who get past the morning cut pass. Anyone not up to standard in the morning continues with training for the rest of the day and must re-take the CBT another day. There is a nominal fee for this testing.

This permits you to ride up to 125cc 11KW bikes, or if over 21 500cc 45KW bikes under supervision.

Most private schools offer additional training to lead the new riders up to their 'Test' for their motorcycle licence. Typical courses run at about $500 to $600. Once they have passed this test they can ride bikes of up to 33bhp, or if over 21 unrestricted. Younger riders can ride unrestricted after 2 years. New riders or drivers (less than 2 years) need fewer driving convictions to be banned than experienced drivers.

 

The first part (CBT) is what is considered the minimum basic training for new riders here, so in comparison the lack of real traffic conditions in the BRC seems like a serious omission. Note also, there are penalties, which are enforced, for riding without CBT. No CBT also means your (compulsory) insurance is void, so another 3 points and a fine there, which added to the 3 points and a fine for the lack of CBT gets you a driving ban as a new rider.

 

Andy

[philbytx]

Ken,

 

Read again, I was not knocking the MSF BRC.

 

I was merely opining that IMHO the course is insufficient for "real world" rider training. My point is (and you also mentioned the "bone basics) the fact that you can obtain a motorcycle license (enabling the person to buy, say, a GSX750 as their next bike) for merely attending and passing a fairly basic course on how to start, steer and stop a bike , is bordering on criminal .

[chrisolson]

... I was not knocking the MSF BRC. I was merely opining that IMHO the course is insufficient for "real world" rider training.

My wife's comments were exactly the same after she took the course and got her license.

 

We spent a lot of additonal time in parking lots and around the neighborhood before venturing out into that "real world"