Please keep harping about proper gear

[lexxol]

 

I have read a lot about proper dress etc. on this board . I was in the cage headed out for lunch with my wife today. Stopped at a traffic light and watched a group of bikes go through the intersection. I won’t mention what they were riding, doesn’t matter. The driver was wearing shorts tee shirt and flip flops same for his female passenger. We were behind them when they pulled into a road side hot dog and beer joint. There was sand and shells on the cement entrance. The bike slide out from under them. I ran back to help. The passenger’s foot was a mess, road rash and shells imbedded into her leg and arm. The driver faired much better. I suggested he take her to the emergency room or a walk-in clinic because of possible infection. I was told a few beers would make it better. ( I’m not kidding ) The speed was about 15mph with proper clothing this would have been nothing more then a wake up call. Those of you who keep harping about proper clothing, please keep harping. I have seen what the alternative is. My wife said “ I thought you were carrying things a bit far wearing that gear in the summer, now I see why”. I'm not perfect. I have gone to the store a couple blocks away in shorts and deck shoes and my helmet.

[steve.foote]

We used to have a saying in the army:

 

"Some learn from experience, others never recover from it"

[Dances_With_Wiener_Dogs]

Unfortunately the driver of that bike will never hear you.

[Pilgrim]

Mostly, when you keep harping about something people begin to tune you out, then avoid you, then talk to others about what a monomaniacal bore you are. And you'll seldom change anyone's mind.

 

Furthermore, what constitutes "proper gear"?

 

Funny, but predictable, how seeing someone get hurt on a bike raises the conciousness of the viewer about the dangers of how someone else does things.

 

That's not to say, of course, that I think shorts and sandals on a bike are a good idea; they're not.

 

Pilgrim

[lexxol]

Sorry for the use of the word harping. Point I was trying to make is some people don't know about proper gear. Dam, sorry shouldn't have used the term proper gear, sorry again. Aren't we getting a little picky, I mean really?

[russell_bynum]

Sorry for the use of the word harping. Point I was trying to make is some people don't know about proper gear. Dam, sorry shouldn't have used the term proper gear, sorry again. Aren't we getting a little picky, I mean really?

 

Actually, I think Pilgrim's point was very valid.

 

Around here, we get lots of chest-thumping holier-than-thou ATGATT preachers...who then go out riding wearing a crappy mesh jacket.

 

Some of the gear that some people consider "proper" wouldn't even be considered acceptable backup gear for other folks.

 

And even the very best protective gear (Racing leathers, race boots, race gloves, back/chest protectors, and a full-face helmet) still leaves you far more vulnerable than you would be riding in pretty much any car on the road.

 

The bottom line is that it is an issue of personal risk and what each of us is willing to accept.

 

Certainly there are those who just haven't realized the difference that good gear can make (I was one of those...grew up riding in dirt at low speeds...a helmet, gloves, and blue jeans were perfectly acceptable protective gear.), but we're not likely to educate them by strutting around talking about how we "usually wear our ATGATT" or by looking down our noses at those who choose a different standard of protective gear than we do.

 

What's better...the guy on the Harley wearing what basically amounts to street clothes with a beanie helmet, or the BMW rider wearing $2000 worth of Aerostitch, Sidi, Held, and Arai? Now...same two riders...the Harley guy's going 35-40mph on easy roads close to home and the BMW rider's throwing sparks from his footpeg at triple-digit speeds on unfamiliar roads and inclement weather in the middle of nowhere (hours from medical help)?

 

Again...it's an issue of personal risk acceptance.

[Mike]

And even the very best protective gear (Racing leathers, race boots, race gloves, back/chest protectors, and a full-face helmet) still leaves you far more vulnerable than you would be riding in pretty much any car on the road.

 

The bottom line is that it is an issue of personal risk and what each of us is willing to accept.

 

I think you've made some excellent points. Accepting that we all engage in some gross generalizations, your observations about the risk factors accepted by the stereotypical H-D riders versus the stereotypical Beemer rider is directly on point. Experienced riders tend to realize the risks and benefits of their choices and just draw their lines differently.

 

Where I prefer to try to make an impact is with young riders, those who may not have had the benefit of age or experience to help them make informed decisions. You can do it without being overbearing--just talking about your gear or responding to a rhetorical question will have much more impact than a "Listen here, whippersnapper . . . " approach. Also, you can't discount the fact that a lot of young riders just don't have the financial means to buy top-notch gear. Heck, I'm an old fart and I still find the cost daunting!

[russell_bynum]

Where I prefer to try to make an impact is with young riders, those who may not have had the benefit of age or experience to help them make informed decisions. You can do it without being overbearing--just talking about your gear or responding to a rhetorical question will have much more impact than a "Listen here, whippersnapper . . . " approach. Also, you can't discount the fact that a lot of young riders just don't have the financial means to buy top-notch gear. Heck, I'm an old fart and I still find the cost daunting!

 

Yep.

 

I was wearing street clothes and a half-helmet when I bought the RT. I switched to a full-face after I caught a bee on the cheek at 80mph.

 

I bought motorcycle boots because Lisa was giving me crap about getting a shifter mark on my dress shoes.

 

I bought a FirstGear 2-piece Suit (Kilimanjaro) because it was winter and I was cold on my commute. I really only wore it when it was cold.

 

Then Kris crashed up in Utah at relatively low speed. That night, he posted pictures of his torn-up gear (FirstGear Kilimanjaro). For some reason, that really struck a chord with me, and I starting wearing the suit on every ride.

 

Then I got a Joe Rocket Phoenix jacket because the Kilimanjaro didn't breath very well and was incredibly hot in the summertime.

 

Then I got tired of carrying all that crap around everywhere, and bought the 1-piece Roadcrafter.

 

I arrived at those choices on my own, with input from my fellow riders, of course. No amount of preaching and chest-thumping would have changed my mind any sooner (If anything, I tend to rebel against that sort of thing, so it probably would have done more harm than good.)

 

Another thing that really brought this whole thing home for me, was not long after I started wearing my gear all the time, was something that Pilgrim said. I was commuting to work, and took a corner too fast. I set the valve cover down, and it levered the rear tire off the ground. The rear slid out a good bit, and I was very lucky to not crash.

 

When I told the tale here, Pilgrim suggested that perhaps I was riding more agressively than I normally would because I felt more invincible in my gear.

 

He was right...and it made me realize how idiotic this whole thing is. Here we are looking down our noses and wagging our fingers at the guy who wears jeans and a T-shirt to ride his Harley 5 miles from his house to the local biker hangout on sunny days...then we get on our bikes and ride like maniacs in the middle of nowhere and in all weather conditions. Who's the idiot in that situation?

[Pilgrim]

Aren't we getting a little picky, I mean really?

 

Well . . . maybe a little. I could have been more tactful.

 

NOW GIVE IT A REST! WILL YA!

Pilgrim

[Effervescent]

Who's the idiot in that situation?

 

Whenever posed with that question, I always vote Steve Carlton!

 

-Eff

[Gregori]

(...) and the BMW rider's throwing sparks from his footpeg at triple-digit speeds on unfamiliar roads and inclement weather in the middle of nowhere (hours from medical help)?

(...)

 

Hey - it wasn't snowing very hard!

 

And it was the centerstand, not the footpegs...

 

And...

...um...

...what?

 

... oh, you weren't talking to me?

 

Oops...

 

[Gregori]

Silliness aside...

While I have to agree that giving strangers grief about their choice of riding gear is pointless and not likely to be received well, I DO tend to harangue those I know about gear. But even then, only those that I think will take it to heart.

 

My best friend decided to take up riding for his 50th birthday. His stature and style preferences aligned, to dictate a cruiser style ride.

 

Because of my efforts, he took the MSF class, bought a full face helmet, jacket and pants. Despite my efforts, he ALSO bought a chromed beanie helmet and chaps. Fortunately, after a couple of rides, he abandoned the beanie. And after a couple of the inevitable leaning curve drops (fortunately at very low speeds) the chaps have been likewise retired.

 

I'm glad he's smart enough to learn from experience. It's just too bad that he's had to learn from HIS OWN. (I hate to say "I told you so" but - I did!)

 

G

[subvet]

The passenger’s foot was a mess, road rash and shells imbedded into her leg and arm. The driver faired much better. I suggested he take her to the emergency room or a walk-in clinic because of possible infection. I was told a few beers would make it better.

 

 

Who came up with the beer idea, him or her?

[WeirdHarold]

Where I prefer to try to make an impact is with young riders, those who may not have had the benefit of age or experience to help them make informed decisions.

 

Good point. I think that it's important to demonstrate (not preach!) to prospective new riders that wearing good gear is a socially acceptable alternative.

 

People learn from what they see. When I look around here at the typical motorcyclist, I see lots of cruiser riders with no helmets and virtually no gear except sunglasses. And lots of sportbike riders, many with jackets, and some with helmets. Virtually nobody wears riding pants.

 

Where are new riders going to get the information that good gear is a socially acceptable alternative, and is considered by some to be a very good idea?

 

When they see me riding the Houston streets in full gear in the middle of summer, I hope they ask themselves "Why is that guy wearing all that gear in this hot weather? Why does he choose to do that?"

 

Of course, their first answer is likely to be "Because he's a dork". But after repeated sightings, and reading about gear in his favorite enthusiast magazines and websites, maybe he'll think about it a bit more.

 

Don

[JJWood47]

OK, I wear more gear than any other BMW rider or anyone else that I have met, but I still don't feel invincible, or go around corners with the footpegs throwing sparks. Safety, of course, is a combination of riding choices (where and when and how), riding skills (reaction time for braking, swerving, etc.) AND protective gear. It is certainly a personal choice, but that won't stop me from "harping" on my co-workers to wear more gear. I care about them. That's all there is to it.

[Pilgrim]

OK, I wear more gear than any other BMW rider or anyone else that I have met, but I still don't feel invincible, or go around corners with the footpegs throwing sparks. Safety, of course, is a combination of riding choices (where and when and how), riding skills (reaction time for braking, swerving, etc.) AND protective gear. It is certainly a personal choice, but that won't stop me from "harping" on my co-workers to wear more gear. I care about them. That's all there is to it.

 

You must be a real pain in the ass. In fact, I can't imagine a bigger PITA than someone who wants to do me well because he "cares" for me. If I want advice from someone I'm capable of seeking it out. Beat it.

 

Pilgrim [/color]

[steve.foote]

You must be a real pain in the ass. In fact, I can't imagine a bigger PITA than someone who wants to do me well because he "cares" for me. If I want advice from someone I'm capable of seeking it out. Beat it.

 

Pilgrim [/color]

 

+1 Well said, Kent.

[Z-Man]

I recall some years ago when I was buying my first pair of chaps. They were on sale, which made the purchase that much more attractive. The woman who owned the shop was hooking me up...uh, so to speak...and said something that made a lot of sense. Her words of wisdom were, "Honey, you'd spend more on the gauze it takes to clean out the road rash from a fall than you're spending on these things."

 

That made enough sense to me at the time that I've been more conscious of my riding gear ever since. Made more of an impact on me than two tours through the basic rider safety course by giving me a better perspective.

[AdventurePoser]

You must be a real pain in the ass. In fact, I can't imagine a bigger PITA than someone who wants to do me well because he "cares" for me. If I want advice from someone I'm capable of seeking it out. Beat it.

 

Pilgrim [/color]

 

Pilgrim, you'll live longer and be happier if you don't hold all your feelings in. You should try letting people know how you feel...

 

Steve in So Cal

[Pilgrim]

You must be a real pain in the ass. In fact, I can't imagine a bigger PITA than someone who wants to do me well because he "cares" for me. If I want advice from someone I'm capable of seeking it out. Beat it.

 

Pilgrim [/color]

 

Pilgrim, you'll live longer and be happier if you don't hold all your feelings in. You should try letting people know how you feel...

 

Steve in So Cal

 

Which reminds me - James, JJWOOD47, to whom I responded. Don't take the admonition to "Beat it" to heart. You're welcome here as far as I'm concerned, and in my house, too. But fer cryin' out loud, don't presume to preach just because you "care". Hell's bells; Hillary Clinton "cares" and I'll run faster from her than I would from a grizzly with hemorrhoids, a headache, and a hard-on.

 

Pilgrim

[Rags]

I just dress for the Fall (it has nothing to do with seasons).

 

Dress the way you want, if one can't learn from observation, then experience will teach them.

 

Darwin's theory works in strange ways.

[russell_bynum]

I just dress for the Fall (it has nothing to do with seasons).

 

So, how do you like your kangaroo leather race suit? Do you find that the back protector is uncomfortable on long days? Do you bring a spare pair of shoes for walking around off the bike, or do you just suffer with your race boots?

 

 

 

People always say "I dress for the fall.", but that's mostly just a cliche.

 

If you told me that I was going to crash today, I'd wear the absolute very best protective gear I could find, and not the typical street rider gear that most of us wear during everyday rides.

 

How do you reconcile not really "Dressing for the fall"?

 

And where does Darwin fit into motorcycle riding in the first place?

[Rags]

tooling around town to potential 45mph I wear a retro Ducati jacket no armor. Hell if i'm going bycycle speed why armor up; my .02

 

Over 45 (freeway) I armor up kevlar jeans and Killi II. Kangaroo outfits are for cafe racers.

 

If you have to ask about Darwin/motorcycling gear, you won't get an answer from me.

[Aluminum_Butt]

If you told me that I was going to crash today, I'd wear the absolute very best protective gear I could find

 

If you told me I was going to crash today, I'd take the cage.

[russell_bynum]

tooling around town to potential 45mph I wear a retro Ducati jacket no armor. Hell if i'm going bycycle speed why armor up; my .02

 

If you KNEW you were going to crash today, would you still wear jacket with no armor?

[Rags]

I like this answer...

 

"If you told me I was going to crash today, I'd take the cage."

[russell_bynum]

I like this answer...

 

"If you told me I was going to crash today, I'd take the cage."

 

It avoids the question.

 

You said that you "Dress for the fall.", which implies that your choice of protective gear assumes that you will crash.

 

So I was just asking...if you were setting out on one of your "around town" rides where you would typically wear your unarmored jacket, and someone told you that you were going to crash today...would you change into your kevlar jeans and Kilimanjaro jacket?

[steve.foote]

If you told me that I was going to crash today, I'd wear the absolute very best protective gear I could find, and not the typical street rider gear that most of us wear during everyday rides.

 

If you could guarantee I wouldn't crash today, I'd wear a T-shirt and shorts. Wearing the gear IS prepping for the fall. Why else would you wear it?

[russell_bynum]

If you told me that I was going to crash today, I'd wear the absolute very best protective gear I could find, and not the typical street rider gear that most of us wear during everyday rides.

 

If you could guarantee I wouldn't crash today, I'd wear a T-shirt and shorts. Wearing the gear IS prepping for the fall. Why else would you wear it?

 

Sure.

 

Where I was going with this was to point out how silly this is. Folks say "Dress for the fall", then wear a jacket with no armor. I'm sorry, but if I'm "Dressing for the fall", I'm going to wear the very best protective gear I can find.

 

We don't "Dress for the fall". We "Dress for whatever makes sense for us." We weigh the protective characteristics of the gear against the other factors (cost, comfort, versatility, etc) and make a decision that works for us.

[Rags]

I like this answer...

 

"If you told me I was going to crash today, I'd take the cage."

 

It avoids the question.

 

You said that you "Dress for the fall.", which implies that your choice of protective gear assumes that you will crash.

 

So I was just asking...if you were setting out on one of your "around town" rides where you would typically wear your unarmored jacket, and someone told you that you were going to crash today...would you change into your kevlar jeans and Kilimanjaro jacket?

 

If someone told me I was going to crash today, I wouldn't believe them.

 

Let me clarify... As someone who has gone down at 60mph =/- with short sleeves and as recently as 2003 launched into a pole with shorts /sweatshirt (I'm so stupid it makes my head hurt) - I wear the unarmored leather jacket/pants w gloves/helmet for anticipated speeds of less than 45 mph.

 

I have experience, so I believe I could survive the injuries . However, when going over 100mph, I don't believe any ATGATT (perhaps the helmet) helps on a sudden stop.

 

I've been riding since the days of no helmets and mostly no gloves. Wearing my half helmet used to draw sneers.

 

I recognized the value of leather (wo armor) on two European moto tours in the '70s (since I went down in Belgium).

 

Although the Marlon Brando movie made leather jackets a must wear (mostly fashion purposes), most of the nicest people you met on a Honda didn't wear them.

[KMG_365]

I disagree and I think, Russell, you're twisting the discussion beyond recognition.

 

I scrape up people who "dressed for the ride (or usually more accurately: 'for the look')" and I've seen my share of roadrash, deep wounds and disfigured faces. Ironically, I've been on almost as many gruesome calls (though not fatals) responding to bicyclists who fly through town doing 40mph in a peloton of 40 bikes inches of the next guys handlebars wearing only lycra and a styrofoam half-helmet.

 

I assume EVERYDAY that I can/will go down and it keeps me on my guard to make sure I don't let the idiots get me. I operate on the assumption that >I< am the player in my game of Frogger and I only have one life. I assume that anyone within my sphere will go out of their way to KILL me and it is my job to avoid them. I also recognise that I am not infallible and there are many other variables subject to "brownian unpredictability", and for that I wear a sacrificial layer so it's not my skin that's the first to be sacrificed to the "asphalt gods".

 

If I didn't at least partially "dress for the fall" I'd base my dress solely on some other reasoning, like what my friends are wearing, what looks cool, what's most comfortable, etc. Personally, I've seen many accidents at many different speeds, situations, level of rider protection and involvement of stationary (and non-stationary) objects. I'm pretty comfortable with my choices (and compromises) based on my experiences, but I would still say I dress for the fall vs. someone who takes no thought whatsoever for the consequences of going down.

 

I also don't allow people to put their feet up on the dash of my car if there's a passenger airbag, but how many times do you see this?? I see it ALL THE TIME in San Diego and especially in Coronado! My point is MOST people do NOT take likely consequences of their actions into account when they act--they "dress for the ride" and then are shocked and sobered when they have to undergo skin grafts and extremely painful surgeries.

 

I would suggest we don't get caught up in the semantics and lose the OP's original point, which is (basically): no one is too old to learn valuable lessons from the ignorance of others. There are many potentially dangerous things in life that I'd never considered as such and would much rather learn this on observing the pain of some other darwinian volunteer.

[russell_bynum]

I disagree and I think, Russell, you're twisting the discussion beyond recognition.

 

Perhaps. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

 

 

 

I would suggest we don't get caught up in the semantics and lose the OP's original point, which is (basically): no one is too old to learn valuable lessons from the ignorance of others. There are many potentially dangerous things in life that I'd never considered as such and would much rather learn this on observing the pain of some other darwinian volunteer.

 

Absolutely.

 

But I do think that the semantics are important. Sometimes the way you say something is more important than what you say. Preaching at poeople and "harping" about things rarely works.

 

It's interesting, actually. On a few of the sportbike boards I frequent, they are fairly vocal about good gear...to the extent that they'd laugh at the stuff most people on this site wear. When someone posts a picture from a ride and someone isn't fully geared-up, there's always at least a few people who mention it.

 

I can't put my finger on the difference (and maybe it's that whole "familiarity breeds contempt" thing) but I get a totally different vibe from the ATGATT snobs here than I do from those guys on the sportbike site. People strut around patting themselves on the back saying idiotic things like "I ususally wear my ATGATT." and it almost makes me want to go ride up and down the street at high speed while naked just to rebel against the finger-wavers.

 

I just don't think that sort of self-righteous crap works. I don't think you're going to convince anyone by harping on them.

 

As for me personally...I very much believe in the value of good protective gear. It is very rare to find me in anything less than armored leather motorcycle boots, my Roadcrafter, good gloves with knuckly protection, armor, and a gauntlet strap, and a full face helmet. At the track, I substitute my Roadcrafter for armored racing leathers and add a rigid back protector.

 

I came to this opinion mostly by reading tales of how stuff survived a get-off here and on other forums. I got some friendly nudges along the way, but if anyone had walked up and "harped" on me about my gear selection, I'd have told them to go piss up a rope.

[KMG_365]

People strut around patting themselves on the back saying idiotic things like "I ususally wear my ATGATT." and it almost makes me want to go ride up and down the street at high speed while naked just to rebel against the finger-wavers.

Aha. I think I found your problem right here.

 

Hey, whatever works for you. If it's more important to rebel against people who are trying to educate you (however crudely), then by all means have at it. And meanwhile we'll all continue to have fun anally dissecting the latest get-off (not necessarily yours! ) and discussing how a different choice of gear might've prevented the various injuries presented!

[russell_bynum]

Hey, whatever works for you. If it's more important to rebel against people who are trying to educate you (however crudely), then by all means have at it.

 

Jamie, you're missing the point. It's just human nature...if someone comes up in your face and wags their finger at you, you tell them to go pound sand. Sure...the rational, adult thing to do is to filter out that "How they said it." and just focus on the "What they said." But then again...the rational adult thing to do is to not ride unstable machines that place us in a highly vulnerable state sharing the roadway with vehicles many times our mass piloted by people who don't have the mental capacity to operate anything more complex than a kleenex box...so that pretty much throws the whole "rational and adult" theory out the window.

 

And meanwhile we'll all continue to have fun anally dissecting the latest get-off (not necessarily yours! ) and discussing how a different choice of gear might've prevented the various injuries presented!

 

I think that sort of discussion is good, and probably does help educate people.

[Jim Moore]

I'll say this about that. I spent the last two days at the track. Several people went down at high speed. They ALL got up, brushed themselves off, were good-to-go. More than one straightened out the bent parts and rode in the next session. Those leathers are amazing!

[lexxol]

 

I guess HARPING was the wrong word to use. I never intended for it to mean to harass someone about the gear they wear. I wanted to share an experience and a example of not wearing gear. The intention was to keep people aware of proper ( crap shouldn’t have said proper now we will get into what the hell is proper ) by talking about it on the board, as we have been ever since I have been here. I have learned a lot from this board about safety and many other things and I will continue to learn from this board. Bottom line, it’s your choice what you want to wear or ride.

[Marty Hill]

Hey Russell,

 

Good points. Reminds me of the crap that Gleno had to listen to and read after his get-off in DV. I put my arm around him and had a tear in my eye...that was enough.

[Aluminum_Butt]

I guess HARPING was the wrong word to use. I never intended for it to mean to harass someone about the gear they wear. I wanted to share an experience and a example of not wearing gear. The intention was to keep people aware of proper ( crap shouldn’t have said proper now we will get into what the hell is proper ) by talking about it on the board, as we have been ever since I have been here. I have learned a lot from this board about safety and many other things and I will continue to learn from this board. Bottom line, it’s your choice what you want to wear or ride.

 

 

While harping may be a bad choice of words, I do think we have some opportunity (perhaps even responsibility - ooooh, another bad word choice?) to raise awareness about good gear.

 

I have a co-worker who bought a bike last summer. He WANTED a helmet, but when he asked at the dealership, they pointed him to a display of three choices - from his description, it's not clear they were anything but fashion helmets. I have a cruiser-owning neighbor who was curious about "why I wore all that stuff - isn't it hot?". In both cases I got a chance to tell them what was available, why I thought it was worth wearing, and so on. In the end, they made their own educated choices.

 

Certainly, marketing should be left to the companies selling gear. But I think we are very lucky to have stumbled onto places like BMWST, other similar sites, local clubs, etc. where we can get this kind of information. I fully believe that there are a lot of riders out there who have no idea what's even available or why they should consider it - they don't know what they don't know.

[russell_bynum]

I have a co-worker who bought a bike last summer. He WANTED a helmet, but when he asked at the dealership, they pointed him to a display of three choices - from his description, it's not clear they were anything but fashion helmets. I have a cruiser-owning neighbor who was curious about "why I wore all that stuff - isn't it hot?". In both cases I got a chance to tell them what was available, why I thought it was worth wearing, and so on. In the end, they made their own educated choices.

 

I think that's also a very valuable and effective way to do it. Lead by example. Answer questions when asked. Help when you can.

 

I think that sort of thing (and post-accident analysis) is much more effective than any amount of preaching ever could be.

 

And in the end, we need to realize that we're all adults and we're making our own decisions. All we're talking about is drawing the "what's reasonable?" line in different places. Given that we all are already doing something that the majority of society considers WAY past the "What's reasonable?" line, you'd think we'd be more tolerant of folks who draw the line in a different place than us.

[KMG_365]

It's just human nature...if someone comes up in your face and wags their finger at you, you tell them to go pound sand. Sure...the rational, adult thing to do is to filter out that "How they said it." and just focus on the "What they said."

Oh, I see it's the rational, adult thing that is hard for you. Got it.

 

I do agree that human nature--left to its own devices--is to be a completely crude, selfish, animal (believe me I know, I work in a Fire House ). But can't we at least strive to behave like a creature with a bit more forebrain? You rail about the driving skills of folks sharing the road with you and yet you hold your own societal actions to no higher goal?

 

You may well tell them to pound sand, and you'll have the resultant unpleasant experience that further entrenches your incredibly low opinion of humanity, pisses you off, makes you look like the fool, and you can even let the psychological trauma ruin your day. I would humbly submit trying instead to thank them for sharing, evaluate if there was anything of value in the message (yes, filtered of the delivery as needed), and discard either parts of it, or discard it in its entirety, but only after careful consideration. Just as I do with many of your hot-headed posts.

 

Let's remember also that this is a DISCUSSION board, not just an Argument Board and most of us are indeed rational adults. I would also take issue with your point that that is incompatible with enjoying SportTouring (as I can justify almost anything, just ask my wife! ). Sometimes folks make good salient points and I would hate to miss any strands of "gold among the dross" (to my own loss) just because their presentation might come off like that of an impetuous and belligerent child.

 

But that's just me. Not that it's easy, and not that I'm successful at reigning in the initial knee-jerk reaction to "tell them to pound sand" more than half of the time, but I continue to put it out there as my guiding principle. It keeps me from getting so angry at well-intentioned people--however primitive their interpersonal or communication skills. I tried it on and found the outcomes much less provocative and my angry reaction only punished me--the other fool remained unchanged still. That, and I remind myself to be the change I wish to see in the world and if I'm not part of the solution then I'm part of the problem.

 

[/pissing in the wind]

[russell_bynum]

Yes, that's all well and good. And we should strive to be better.

 

But...at the same time, we need to understand that if we want to convey a message, we need to be aware of how we're doing it.

 

IF I POSTED EVERYTHING IN ALL CAPS AND WITH NO PUNCTUATION IT WOULD BE ANNOYING AND NOBODY WOULD LISTEN IN FACT PEOPLE WOULD PROBABLY POKE FUN AT ME NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE CONTENT OF MY POST WAS I WOULD NOT GET THROUGH TO PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THE WAY I SAID IT

 

 

Likewise, finger-wagging and self-righteous chest pounding isn't likely to be very effective, regarless of what our intent is and how good the content is.

 

Like you, I would hope that we would always strive to be better, and that we try to help our fellow human beings be better. I just think the way we go about it is just as important as what we're going about.

[David]

There are many different kinds of anger. There's the humorous, surface type where you know right where you are as you interact with someone. It's exaggerated and ludicrous and youthful. This is fire and there's no mystery.

 

Then there's the more measured, passive anger that's masked, hidden only to the person who is angry. It's translated into platitudes and teaching. It summarizes by drawing everything into its own context, viewing the world narrowly through a pair of binoculars the viewer thinks are wide-angled. This is electricity and its dangers are not obvious.

 

There are many different perspectives, and we can learn from all of them. Even in the learning, some of them need to be labeled exactly for what they are.

[Gary in Aus]

Paul ,

please use the words or expression that you are comfortable with , when I read your post I understood that you were making members on the board aware of your recent "encounter"

 

There are a range of issues that motivate us to respond in a certain manner and these are as varied as the range of life experiences , skill, attitude ,intelligence ,health, etc etc as the members of this board.

 

There are contributors to this board who value your input and there are those who do not and of course you must value or not value their input as well.This is a two way street.

 

I personally read what I have the time to read and on the information I receive I will take that on board, the rest I discard.

 

It shouldn't take long for you to determine your read group and your discard group.

 

 

I do have a question for Pilgrim though ,

 

 

Part 1, If a bear has a headache you would probably know this by him being aggressive and growling.

 

Part 2.If a bear has a hard on you would know this by him being sexually aggresive and the visible signs as well.

 

Part 3. but what are you people doing to him to find out if he is suffering from haemorrhoids????

 

Whatever you are doing to check for haemorrhoids could be the cause for part 1 and is most likely the cause for part 2 and I would suggest that if you suspect a bear has haemorrhoids, you should stop doing whatver you are doing and leave the poor creatures alone

 

or

 

it will probably end in tears, as usual

[redryder]

Paul ,

please use the words or expression that you are comfortable with , when I read your post I understood that you were making members on the board aware of your recent "encounter"

 

There are a range of issues that motivate us to respond in a certain manner and these are as varied as the range of life experiences , skill, attitude ,intelligence ,health, etc etc as the members of this board.

 

There are contributors to this board who value your input and there are those who do not and of course you must value or not value their input as well.This is a two way street.

 

I personally read what I have the time to read and on the information I receive I will take that on board, the rest I discard.

 

It shouldn't take long for you to determine your read group and your discard group.

 

+1

[Pilgrim]

I would suggest that if you suspect a bear has haemorrhoids, you should stop doing whatver you are doing and leave the poor creatures alone

 

or

 

it will probably end in tears, as usual

 

 

Pilgrim

[JonathanE]

Russell and Jamie,

 

Maybe y'all can create a new forum called "Preaching At You". That way whenever a board member felt like getting preached at, he could just go there and get it over with quickly, or he can just ride home and ask his wife what he is doing wrong today.

 

As many of you have noticed I gave up accepting criticism of my opinions or actions a little while ago. Those of you that still like to get told what you're doing wrong, feel free to hang out in that new forum.

 

The rest of you can read more interesting posts on riding and wrenching in the other existing forums.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Russell and Jamie,

 

Maybe y'all can create a new forum called "Preaching At You".

 

How 'bout "Preaching Well?"

[SpaceKing]

That, and I remind myself to be the change I wish to see in the world and if I'm not part of the solution then I'm part of the problem.

beno

[fourteenfour]

was this story posted?

 

http://www.speedfreakinc.com/content/articles/riding/roadrashqueen.html

 

If you ever needed proof about why you must wear proper gear here is the most graphic example I have seen written about.

[Boffin]

was this story posted?

 

http://www.speedfreakinc.com/content/articles/riding/roadrashqueen.html

 

If you ever needed proof about why you must wear proper gear here is the most graphic example I have seen written about.

 

Already under discussion here.

 

Andy