Good technique / Bad technique

[Miriam]

From my question on crash bar clearance I found some photo's that really make it clear at about the same lean angle.

 

Bad technique:

 

 

Good technique:

 

 

All agree?

[timmr]

I've seen the pic of David(yellow helmet) when going on to the AVRider site. Other than being fashion challenged, he does look pretty good. Makes me want to go ride the snot out of my GS.

You can definately see the clearance differance in the two shots.

[David]

Other than being fashion challenged, he does look pretty good.

 

 

Here are two other bad examples. The first was captured by Russell right before our protagonist ended up on his arse. I don't know where I grabbed the second one from.

 

 

[Woodie]

Actually, I wouldn't quite agree on #2. While his body position is good (excellent), I wonder if he's really looking through the turn that well. It appears that he's looking straight at the camera, rather than looking to his right, where the turn appears to be going.

[NEOHMark]

Actually, I wouldn't quite agree on #2. While his body position is good (excellent), I wonder if he's really looking through the turn that well. It appears that he's looking straight at the camera, rather than looking to his right, where the turn appears to be going.

 

And just look at the head position of both pics RIDER posted. They both appear to be looking straight down at the ground about 5-20 feet in front of the front wheel. Not a place I'd want to be going!

[Marty Hill]

Hi Miriam,

 

Good examples. Get the bars...just in case. Hope to see you again.

[StretchMark]

David,

You don't plan on buying any pictures from that photographer at Road Atlanta on Sunday...do you???

[David]

Actually, I wouldn't quite agree on #2. While his body position is good (excellent), I wonder if he's really looking through the turn that well. It appears that he's looking straight at the camera, rather than looking to his right, where the turn appears to be going.

 

Goodness knows I've been looking in the wrong place many times, but in this case (Turn 12 at Barber), that's the end of the curve, and you have to drive to the outside of the next curve, so that's the right place to look.

[Woodie]

Thank you for the clarification! I was thinking this was an early pic, from your quest to improve your lap times!

 

(I think it's a little scary that you can recognize the turn looking the wrong way. )

[StretchMark]

(I think it's a little scary that you can recognize the turn looking the wrong way. )

 

David often feels like he's going backwards on that track

[GelStra]

You've got all wrong. In this one, he has all the lunches in his top case so he's just tooling back, no need for a spectacular show of skill. You can see the people behind him, following him. They smell grub!

[russell_bynum]

(I think it's a little scary that you can recognize the turn looking the wrong way. )

 

David often feels like he's going backwards on that track

 

[Id's_OK]

in this case (Turn 12 at Barber), that's the end of the curve, and you have to drive to the outside of the next curve, so that's the right place to look.

 

That's my favorite set of turns, but are you sure that this picture is turn 12? Something...either the close proximity of the guard rails or the apparent elevation change or the lack of the curb that always gets my attention in #12...doesn't say #12 to me. I'm just thinking about diving down and left into 11 after the straight, then looking back up to the top of the hill after 12...it just doesn't look right in the picture. 'Course I can't place it anywhere else either

 

Never mind...I see the curb now. Must've been the angle of the angle of the camera or something. And off the subject anyway.

[Miriam]

The first picture “bad technique” I came across on another board. Everyone is applauding this guy for scraping the hard parts. It’s treated as a great achievement. Where’s the discrepancy then? Why do guys think bad technique is so great? Are they just uneducated? Do they teach hanging off on a track course?

 

Over on the Dutch GS DB some have removed their crash bars because they feel hampered by them going through the curves. As one put it, he wanted to increase his lean angle but was already scraping his crash bar, so he’s taking it off. Is it that difficult to hang off then? Or are there more risks involved? Are there pro’s and con’s?

[russell_bynum]

It’s treated as a great achievement. Where’s the discrepancy then? Why do guys think bad technique is so great? Are they just uneducated?

 

They are idiots.

 

 

Some people equate lean angle with speed/skills/guts/etc. All it really is...is lean angle.

 

 

Do they teach hanging off on a track course?

 

I can't speak for any other courses, but at the Superbike School, they do teach body position stuff, including "hanging off".

 

As one put it, he wanted to increase his lean angle but was already scraping his crash bar, so he’s taking it off. Is it that difficult to hang off then? Or are there more risks involved? Are there pro’s and con’s?

 

There certainly are pros and cons of hanging off on the street.

 

The major cons are:

1. It is harder to quickly change direction (such as an evasive manuver) when you're hanging off than if you had your butt planted in the seat.

2. It is hard to transition from one turn to another without upsetting the bike as you drag your body across it to hang off on the other side.

3. It looks "fast" to non-riders you may encounter. In the US, lots of people get all worked up if it looks like you're doing anything reckless. (And in the US, most people think fast = reckless. I know...don't get me started. )

 

The "Pro's" are basically that if done properly, it gets the most amount of your body weight down and towards the inside of the turn, which means you can use less lean angle for a given turn/arc....or more speed at the same lean angle/arc.

 

The problem with dragging non-movable hard parts like engine guards, is...they're non-movable. Once you're leaned that far, the bike will not go any farther, and any attempts to take it farther are very likely to result in a crash.

 

So...I guess if you're 100% confident in your ability to always judge all of the turns you encounter with 100% accuracy so that you can immediately snap the bike down to maximum lean angle with no need to ever take it farther than that, then I suppose there's no harm in dragging hard parts. In the real world, nobody is that good. One of these days, you're going to get into a turn where you have to increase lean angle. Maybe you were going a bit faster than you thought. Maybe the turn tightens up and you didn't realize it. Maybe there's sand on the line you wanted, and you have to tighten up your arc to avoid it. The possibilities are endless. If you're riding with plenty of lean angle to spare, then it's no big deal to add a little more. If you're already at the max, then you're likely to end up on the ground watching your beautiful motorcycle slide away from you and hoping you get stopped before you slide into that guardrail.

 

Fortunately, there's a great middle ground between a "hanging off" position like you'd use on a track, and just sitting bolt-upright. That's where the RidingSmart "Kiss the Mirrors" thing comes in. Since most of your mass is above your waist, getting your upper body into a good position makes a huge difference. With your lower body firmly planted, lead with your inside elbow and your head...drop your upper body forward, down, and towards the inside of the turn, as if you were trying to kiss the mirror. That will accomplish almost as much as hanging off, and it doesn't have any of the negative qualities like hanging off does.

[Miriam]

Russell, thanks, that does clear up a lot of questions.

 

I think I'm more or less doing the BTM ("bite the mirror") position, but if you could direct me to some images that would help my understanding a lot.

 

[David]

Russell's given you some great information. I'd add two additional negatives to "hanging off" the motorcycle with your lower body: it's fatiguing, and it's a tad more difficult to control the motorcycle when you are beside it versus on the center line.

 

You asked for an illustration of the middle ground RidingSmart position. I put Nathan on my GS, and here you go:

 

 

 

 

 

Missing so far from our discussion, though, is a better understanding of why you'd want to eliminate lean angle. We've touched on the first and second, but there are others:

 

1) Won't scrape hard parts.

 

2) Gives you more margin to lean further if necessary.

 

3) Better suspension compliance.

 

4) Better traction for power and braking.

 

That third one is huge. The more upright the shock action, the less you have to rely on the motorcycle's frame to function as a shock when leaned over.

[Miriam]

That does illustrate the BTM very well, thanks so much David. (Do tell gorgeous Nathan to smile during next session though, as that’s a staple during mine!)

 

This helps me a lot as it’s more forward leaning than what I do, especially clear in pic #2; I’ll give that my attention on my next ride.

 

[David]

That does illustrate the BTM very well, thanks so much David. (Do tell gorgeous Nathan to smile during next session though, as that’s a staple during mine!)

 

No kid smiles when his Dad is telling him what to do.

[Ken H.]

Great pics David, Nathan!

 

I can't add a lot to the excellent comments so far beyond commenting that there is a great (incorrect) perception amongst a lot of non-riders and riders alike that the point of leaning off, RideSmart kiss the mirrors, and other similar teachings, is as a way to lean the bike more. In reality they are all ways to lean the bike less!.

 

One of the sport bike riders I ride with from time to time is always making fun of all my 'head bobbing' and moving of my upper body side to side and forward on my "old-man's bike" as we move through the twisties. In the meantime he's scrapping everything on the darn thing as I pull away from him!

 

In actuallity, the only thing that's saving his arz is tire technology.

[Bob]

David:

 

Thanks for those pictures, too. I just got back from practicing the technique on a curvy section of our highway between two clover-leaf intersections. I suppose that I'm fortunate that no LEO chased me away while I was practicing and connecting my dots, but then most of them know me anyway because of how much I walk, practice in parking lots, and talk with them – absolutely wonderful Officers.

 

I had been struggling with feeling in control while trying to increase my speed above the posted 25 MPH on sharp off-ramps - my accident left me feeling out of control like I was going to fall leaning into corners. The BTM technique is the cat's meow for me – proactively forcing me to prepare by leaning up, out, and forward; in my case, I suspect a LARGE part is probably mental preparation and acting instead of reacting. No way I aspire to be a hoon carver, but I must have a larger envelope so I don’t wind up as spilled change. This session allowed me to maintain an interrupted 55 MPH around 30 MPH left hand curves, and 25+ MPH around continuous circling of decreasing-radius cloverleaf iterations. I had more control, enjoyment, and (in my case) the safety factor I sought. Heck, I never did that BEFORE the accident on my RT. I had an absolute ball just gently leaning and relaxing. Heck, if I wanted to have farted in those turns, I could have. Of course, this time I’m on a little F650GS, so a lighter bike and different set-up from my RT are also contributing factors. This little F650GS is an absolute blast below 55 mph (battling the wind above 60 mph isn't fun, but then I don't belong there). The way I look at it, there is way more fun than I can handle on a GS below 55 MPH anyway.

 

Many thanks to both you and Nathan for helping just when and where I needed it.

 

Most grateful,

 

Bob

[Green RT]

1) Won't scrape hard parts.

 

2) Gives you more margin to lean further if necessary.

 

3) Better suspension compliance.

 

4) Better traction for power and braking.

 

I would add a fifth advantage:

 

5) Feels more comfortable leaning further if you have to, so you have less of an instinct to panic and try to solve problems with the brakes.

 

Maybe I am the only one, but I learned cornering body position from this board, and that has been the biggest plus for me.

[Couchrocket]

so you have less of an instinct to panic and try to solve problems with the brakes

I don't think I'd consciously thought about it, but I can add my +1 to this benefit after attending RidingSmart!