Can We Prepare For This?

[NevadaNez]

Watching the news this morning and I came across the following story: Wreck Kills Cyclist. (I tried to find the video link but was unsucessful yet; I'm sure it'll be up later)

After 30+ years of riding and a few accidents of my own under my belt, I can't help but wonder if sometimes, there's just nothing you can do to save your arse.....

FYI, the accident occurred on a notoriously bad stretch of road under construction here in the Nashville area, Briley Parkway. The 4-lane highway is hemmed in by concrete barriers on each side and down the middle, making the road look similar to large concrete bobsled runs headed in opposite directions. It's disconcerting enough to drive it during the day, I can only imagine what it must have been like for this poor guy, who was trying to escape an oncoming suv in a space barely large enough for two cars...

I realize I've given you only a smidgen of the information needed to answer the following question, but what could any of us have done, short of staying home for the night, to avoid being run over by an suv driven by a drunk driver with a suspended license, going the wrong way on a major thoroughfare under heavy construction?

sunofab*tch.

[SWB]

I'm not sure from the story whether this guy was on a 2 lane divided highway, or in a four lane (2 lanes each direction) expressway. I assume it was the latter.

 

A talk show host in the Sacramento area named Tom Sullivan has told this story, and it's stuck with me. He used to be a highway patrol officer (not CHP; in another state), and he noticed that EVERY drunk driver, "wrong way" driver wreck he had to clean up had one feature in common: The wreck occurred in the furthest left (i.e. fast lane) on the freeway. After a while, he figured out that when drunks get going the wrong way on a freeway, they naturally try to stay in the "safe" furthest right lane. However, when they're going the wrong way, and coming towards you, "right" to them is "left" to you, meaning that they'll be coming head-on towards on-coming cars in the fast lane. The other thing he noticed was that drunks almost always forget to turn on their headlights. The last thing he noticed was that since drunks can't really see the lines on the highway that well, they tend to follow the lights in front of them. When they're driving the wrong way on the freeway, the only lights they see are your headlights, which act as a homing beacon to the drunk driver.

 

The bottom line is, after midnight, the most dangerous place to be on a highway is in the "fast", furtherest left lane. The "wrong way" drunks will inevitably be coming towards you, with their lights out, following YOUR lights right into you, with a "closing" speed of something over 130 MPH (your speed plus his).

 

You'll never see him, not even a glimmer, before he impacts you.

 

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me. It's what Tom Sullivan recommends, and he says it's saved his life once already.

 

I don't know whether it would have saved this guy, but more than likely, he literally never saw the guy who hit him.

[Jim Moore]

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me. It's what Tom Sullivan recommends, and he says it's saved his life once already.

...and another little trick gets placed into the bag of survival tricks. Thanks.

[MachineJoe]

I've seen those police clips on TV showing drunks going the wrong way down the freeway. It's always left me with a knot in my throat. Scotts reply left me with a bit more knowledge and another tool (if you will) while enjoying my ride.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

...what could any of us have done, short of staying home for the night, to avoid being run over by an suv driven by a drunk driver with a suspended license, going the wrong way on a major thoroughfare under heavy construction?

sunofab*tch.

 

Write your state government and lobby for the strictest possible enforcement of drunk driving (and suspended license) laws.

 

Anytime you choose to ride instead of staying home, you're playing the odds; the times and places you choose to ride will affect what the odds are. You can hit a deer anytime, but the best odds are around dusk and dawn. Hardcore alcoholics have been known to drive drunk and kill people in the early afternoon, but things get worse after dark (the accident you describe took place around 9:15 PM), and my understanding is that the most likely time to encounter a drunk driver on the road is around bar time.

 

If you've absolutely got to be on a four-lane highway at night though, it sounds like your best practice is going to be staying out of the left lane as much as possible.

[NEOHMark]

IMHO, Scott (and Tom Sullivan) nail it.

 

We had an eerily similar wreck that killed a newlywed couple last year near here. They were on their bike at 11 PM on a weekend night when they were hit head-on by a 'wrongway' drunk woman in the far left lane of the 3-lane urban expressway. Same 'Jersey' barriers limiting escape paths, but also on a lefthand sweeper - the barriers limiting sight distances into the curve as well. In another MC forum, we kind of dissected this way:

 

IF you can avoid it, stay off your bike between 10PM and 2 AM on weekend nights - the drunks' primetime.

 

Stay out of the left lane for precisely the reason Scott and Tom Sullivan give.

 

Take David Hough's advice and ALWAYS delay your apex and stay to the outside as long as you can on a blind curve. It gives you a little further sight distance into the curve and keeps you out of the most likely place where oncoming traffic might drift into your line - your entry but their exit of the curve. Following this principle alone would've saved the newlyweds from harm just by putting them in the far right (outside) lane of that sweeper - two full lanes away from the drunk that eventually killed them.

 

Not sure if it can be applied to the Nashville wreck, but it's a good theory to practice for anyone entering a blind curve.

[leikam]

I can't help but wonder if sometimes, there's just nothing you can do to save your arse.....

 

Sometimes, yes, but only in hindsight.

[Rusty1945]

I'm not sure from the story whether this guy was on a 2 lane divided highway, or in a four lane (2 lanes each direction) expressway. I assume it was the latter.

 

A talk show host in the Sacramento area named Tom Sullivan has told this story, and it's stuck with me. He used to be a highway patrol officer (not CHP; in another state), and he noticed that EVERY drunk driver, "wrong way" driver wreck he had to clean up had one feature in common: The wreck occurred in the furthest left (i.e. fast lane) on the freeway. After a while, he figured out that when drunks get going the wrong way on a freeway, they naturally try to stay in the "safe" furthest right lane. However, when they're going the wrong way, and coming towards you, "right" to them is "left" to you, meaning that they'll be coming head-on towards on-coming cars in the fast lane. The other thing he noticed was that drunks almost always forget to turn on their headlights. The last thing he noticed was that since drunks can't really see the lines on the highway that well, they tend to follow the lights in front of them. When they're driving the wrong way on the freeway, the only lights they see are your headlights, which act as a homing beacon to the drunk driver.

 

The bottom line is, after midnight, the most dangerous place to be on a highway is in the "fast", furtherest left lane. The "wrong way" drunks will inevitably be coming towards you, with their lights out, following YOUR lights right into you, with a "closing" speed of something over 130 MPH (your speed plus his).

 

You'll never see him, not even a glimmer, before he impacts you.

 

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me. It's what Tom Sullivan recommends, and he says it's saved his life once already.

 

I don't know whether it would have saved this guy, but more than likely, he literally never saw the guy who hit him.

Scott, can I have your permission to forward this post to another list I'm a member of that has lots of scoot drivers?

[WayneM]

Other than trying to be more vigilant, some accidents like this are very difficult to prevent.

 

The assumption that a rider/driver can prevent/avoid just about any accident is a flawed premise that unfortunately far too many believe.

 

While Defensive Driving Techniques can tilt the odds in your favour, some 'accidents' cannot be avoided once you find yourself in the situation. (Here's where staying in bed works best )

 

No one wants to have a collision, but the fact are that the rates of motorcycle injuries, deaths and even accident rates are many types higher than other typical groups of drivers.

 

This is due to both the skills and attitudes of the riders, as well as the characteristics of a motorcycle that make it inherently less stable and less likely to protect the driver.

 

Any rider who does not have a firm grasp on the reality of this situation is kidding himself as to the actual amount of risk he is exposing himself to.

 

Wayne

[WeirdHarold]

While Defensive Driving Techniques can tilt the odds in your favour, some 'accidents' cannot be avoided once you find yourself in the situation. (Here's where staying in bed works best )

 

So I do what I can to keep myself out of the situation.

 

As others have mentioned, I try to avoid being on the road at peak times for drunks. I don't know if it's true generally, but in Houston, Thursday seems to be a popular time to have drinks with co-workers on the way home from work. So I try to avoid being on the road on Thursdays from about 7 pm on.

 

But I also try to choose The Road Less Traveled.

 

When I am on the roads during the Drunk Hours, I try to make it a point to avoid the freeways and major roads, even though I'm often going 25 or 30 miles.

 

At 11 pm, the back roads and residential streets have less traffic, and it's going at slower speeds. There are fewer bars and businesses, so there's less chance of someone pulling out of a driveway into your path.

 

It takes longer, but then, I like riding my bike anyway, so more time in the saddle is not a bad thing. And often, it's more scenic than the faster routes.

 

No, this practice won't prevent all accidents. But I think it helps to "tilt the odds" in my favor.

 

I don't know Nashville, but I was using Google to look at a map just now, and I see that Briley Parkway, where the looks like a loop around the Western and Northern part of Nashville. I notice that Old Hickory Blvd, hwy 45, might be a more interesting alternative, especially if I knew that Briley Parkway was under contstruction??? On the West side, perhaps River Road, hwy 251, would be an alternative???

 

As I said, I don't know Nashville at all, so maybe these alternative roads would be bad choices due to nocternal deer and other issues. But I hope the examples have helped to explain my reasoning.

 

 

 

 

Don

[ShovelStrokeEd]

There is always a potential to encounter a situation for which you are unprepared. Training and situational awareness act to reduce the number of things that can bite you. Staying in bed is dangerous as well and from a pure statistical standpoint, is probably the most dangerous of all.

 

I too, do all I can to stay off the road when drunks are likely to be about. Normally not a problem for me as the bars are open till 5AM on county land, 3AM in the cities. I'm usually safely tucked away by 10 or so. Traditional celebration days/nights are scary as well as the dinner hour(s). I'm actually more scared in the 8PM to 10PM zone. That's where the guy who had 2 martinis, more than half a bottle of wine and maybe a cognac gets behind the wheel and heads home, thinking he is fine to drive. I used to be that guy before diabetes changed my ways. I know how common it is.

 

So long as drunks are not removed from the road and forced to suffer harsh penalties, the problem won't go away. Getting drunk is not an accident, it is a deliberate act. The penalties should reflect that.

[MattS]

I think a road trip to the jail is in order ... it would be a quick trip, and a short visit. Quoting Walken, it might go something like, "I want you to tell the angels in heaven that you never saw evil more singularly personified than you did in the face of the man who killed you."

 

Not sure if being drunk is even an excuse ... or if simple stupidity is to blame. How does one enter a limited access highway the wrong way ... all of the cues are just wrong, it feels very unnatural.

 

As far as prosecuting drunk drivers, all one needs to do is watch the Gibson (Mel) saga unfold out west ... to see that little if anything is done to combat the problem. I vote for a Chinese-style solution to the problem: "Drive Drunk, Eat Bullet" ... that would, presumably, fix things some.

[GelStra]

I am amused that the only bone I have ever broken was leaving my kitchen. Ban kitchens!!

My point is that there are times the chain of events throws an unavoidable in there and it is just a matter of wrong time, wrong place.

But this board has given tips, mantras, etc. such as mentioned here that, who knows, may have already saved my life. I thank you all for posting them.

[SWB]

Scott, can I have your permission to forward this post to another list I'm a member of that has lots of scoot drivers?

 

Tom Sullivan get's the credit. Thank him. I don't live in the Sacramento area (have been there on business), so I don't hear him much anymore. But he runs a terrific talk show.

[NevadaNez]

EVERY drunk driver, "wrong way" driver wreck he had to clean up had one feature in common: The wreck occurred in the furthest left (i.e. fast lane) on the freeway. After a while, he figured out that when drunks get going the wrong way on a freeway, they naturally try to stay in the "safe" furthest right lane. However, when they're going the wrong way, and coming towards you, "right" to them is "left" to you, meaning that they'll be coming head-on towards on-coming cars in the fast lane. The other thing he noticed was that drunks almost always forget to turn on their headlights. The last thing he noticed was that since drunks can't really see the lines on the highway that well, they tend to follow the lights in front of them. When they're driving the wrong way on the freeway, the only lights they see are your headlights, which act as a homing beacon to the drunk driver.

 

The bottom line is, after midnight, the most dangerous place to be on a highway is in the "fast", furtherest left lane. The "wrong way" drunks will inevitably be coming towards you, with their lights out, following YOUR lights right into you, with a "closing" speed of something over 130 MPH (your speed plus his).

 

You'll never see him, not even a glimmer, before he impacts you.

 

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me.

 

Some great responses and this one in particular was a nice addition to my arsenal of protective measures (btw, Listened to T. Sullivan often on my weekly drive to and from Sac from Reno-always enjoyed and respected the man). I've re-posted it here because it is such a valuable piece of information.

 

Additional news has surfaced about the victim of this crash; apparently he was a well known and highly respected maker of mandolins here in the Nashville area and his loss is being felt far and wide.

A quick additional comment on the roadway where this fatality (murder?) took place; I've searched google images for a pic of the roadway in order to better illustrate the difficulty in plotting an escape route on this road, but was unable to find any of the actual construction so I'm going to have the wife take a couple of snaps of it the next time we're out on the bike (during the day, of course!). I think it's an important picture that may assist in an additional discussion of how to avoid another senseless tragedy.

Thanks again to those who've offered tips and info.

As the case progresses, I'll try to keep the forum updated on the outcome of the perp and status of the victim's family.

Ride safe!

[sshallen]

Charlie was a good friend of mine.

 

I worked with him at Gibson for eight years.

 

I attended his memorial service on Thursday. He was buried yesterday in Mississippi.

 

I tell you that to get my bias right out front at the beginning. I can't pretend that the following is unbiased, objective commentary.

 

Some more information on Charlie

 

There were a number of factors at play in this crash.

 

Obviously, the driver should have been in jail or in another country prior to the incident, as he had been deported once before. That's lost in all of this, and apologists stand ready to shout "MEAN SPIRITED! Be kind to undocumented workers!" to anyone who criticizes criminal intruders.

 

But that's probably not going to be resolved in this forum.

 

Charlie was either a novice rider or a reentry rider, I'm not certain which. When I had lunch with he and a friend last fall, he was just considering a bike. He bought a metric cruiser this winter. He had been riding most of the day with that same friend, and they had split up to go home just a few miles before.

 

I believe that he died at the scene, based on the account of the evening that our friend related to me. The contact was head-on, at the edge of the left lane and median which would be consistent with the theory above.

 

I don't know if the Explorer's lights were on.

 

At first I wondered if additional training/experience would have helped. I never had a chance to ride with Charlie, so I don't know his level of competency on the bike. But when I thought about the likely speeds (I'd expect that both vehicles were going 65mph, 130mph closing speed), evasive action may have been VERY unlikely. Keep in mind that when the vehicle would first register in your vision, your reaction would be either denial or confusion. "That guy can't be in my lane, can he?". At those speeds, the vehicles would meet quickly. If you suffered target fixation, or if the oncoming driver reacted to your evasive move by tracking your headlight, I think it would nearly always turn out badly.

 

We're all aware of the drunk-driving statistics. Criminal aliens makeup a disproportionate percentage of the offenders, but that's not really something that we'll ever hear about on the news.

 

Thanks for listening.

[philbytx]

I am deeply sorry for the loss of this man and his artistry.

However, until and unless immigrants desire to understand our system and are educated, 3rd world people do import, and thusly play by. 3rd world rules. If you believe it fair to make allowances for such, you are only exacerbating the problem(s). I have been to traffic court on several occasions and seen too many Mexican immigrants on 3rd and 4th traffic violations, no license and insurance charges all requiring translators!

 

Sad...

[Carnadero]

..3rd world people do import, and thusly play by. 3rd world rules.

Only because some types here have some kind of problem with making it clear that it's OUR rules that apply here, and that any sort of expectation of conformance would be improper. They have to be coddled, ya know...

[Ken H.]

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me. It's what Tom Sullivan recommends, and he says it's saved his life once already.

Boy I'll second that. One of the most scariest memories I have is late at night years ago out in the middle of nowhere having a car whiz by my left door.

 

 

As I was traveling down a 4-lane interstate.

[JB-BMW]

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me. It's what Tom Sullivan recommends, and he says it's saved his life once already.

...and another little trick gets placed into the bag of survival tricks. Thanks.

 

+1 - great tip!

[RFW]

So, I've taught my kids, and I follow the practice myself, that at night I never drive the "fast lane" unless their's a couple of cars out in front of me. It's what Tom Sullivan recommends, and he says it's saved his life once already.

 

How about "Never drive in the fast lane unless you are actually PASSING someone"? That is a more fundamental rule that North Americans seem to have a hard time understanding....at least the so-called "drivers" here in BC seem not to have a clue about this.

[NEOHMark]

Boy I'll second that. One of the most scariest memories I have is late at night years ago out in the middle of nowhere having a car whiz by my left door.

 

 

As I was traveling down a 4-lane interstate.

 

That happened to me once too. It's amazing these kinds of things don't end tragically more often.

[bakerzdosen]

How about "Never drive in the fast lane unless you are actually PASSING someone"? That is a more fundamental rule that North Americans seem to have a hard time understanding....at least the so-called "drivers" here in BC seem not to have a clue about this.

Here here... Americans (OK, US Gov at least) copied the German Autobahn, but seemingly took the worst parts, leaving out most of the best parts.

 

Not to be political at all, but if someone campaigned for president on the platform of having a transportation secretary that drove around Germany on a regular basis, he/she would get my vote. I don't just mean the "no speed limits" part either. I'm talking making it REALLY tough to get a drivers license, really strict drunk driving penalties, actually ticketing for passing on the right and most importantly, the faster vehicle has the right of way.

[Carnadero]

I'm talking making it REALLY tough to get a drivers license,..

Germany would probably be a good guide - from what I've been told, a driver's license costs a small fortune, and probably factors into their driving discipline.

 

On the other hand, certain groups here would probably scream about that, bleating that there's some sort of constitutional right to drive...

[RFW]

Germany would probably be a good guide - from what I've been told, a driver's license costs a small fortune, and probably factors into their driving discipline.

 

On the other hand, certain groups here would probably scream about that, bleating that there's some sort of constitutional right to drive...

You mean "the right to drive incompetently".

 

It does indeed cost a lot of money to get a German license. Much of this is because driver training is manditory, and they don't fool around with some wimpy course that mostly just teaches parking, either.

 

It is a real pleasure to drive on the Autobahn. Not just the speed, but you immediately notice you are surrounded by mainly competent drivers. Anyone dawdling along in the fast lane will quickly see a guy behind you with his outside (left) turn signal on (flashing one's lights is illegal), which means "Get the hell out of the way, you dolt!".

 

It is also a pleasure to see laws that assume the driver actually has some intelligence, and drivers who are paying atention, and not talking on the cellphone and brushing their teeth at the same time.

[bakerzdosen]

AND people realize it's dangerous to drive on the Autobahn... How often do you hear someone who has been driving for at least a few years say "It's really dangerous to drive on an interstate freeway"? (Technically, it's just as dangerous if you look at the numbers, but that's even further off topic).

 

Even though I was an exchange student in Germany in HS (thus forming many of my driving habits and opinions), I didn't get to drive on the Autobahn until some years later. But it's amazing how much of the experience of riding on the Autobahn stuck with me. It just made sense. And it sucked coming back home to Portland being stuck at the 55mph max at the time - basically 1/3 the speeds I was used to.

 

Last year was my first drive across Germany where I was driving alone, and it dawned on me how much driving on the Autobahn is like riding a motorcycle. It just requires (at least the way I ride) a hightened sense of alertness of everything around you (not because people in the cars around you have a really good chance of being stupid unlike here in the US) because things happen so fast at 250kph or so... (Of course at those speeds, you learn about the correlation between speed and fuel economy pretty quickly.) In the US, the miles just seem to lull one to sleep until your V1 goes off or you hit something.

 

Germans aren't perfect, but they've got the transportation thing down much better than any other country I've been in.

[RFW]

Interesting is to compare fatality rates.

 

In spite of the overall MUCH higher traffic density in Germany as compare to the US and Canada, and in spite of the MUCH higher Autobahn speeds, the traffic fatality rate in Germany is STILL somewhat lower than that in Canada, and significantly lower than in the US.

 

It has also been clearly shown year after year, that fatalities that occur at speeds HIGHER than 130 km/h (80mph and higher) are MUCH lower than the overall average.

 

In the mean time, we on this continent, persist in giving out drivers licenses in boxes of corn flakes, and then claiming that SPEED kills! If we were any more backward in our thinking, we'd have to put ourselves in reverse.

[Rotor]

I know I’m late, but I saw the thread and had to comment. We have to train, train, train. Just because we ride every day doesn’t mean our skills are at the level that they should be. In fact, it may lull us into a false sense of security by thinking that because we ride we are more comfortable and confident. Emergency skills deteriorate; they need constant reinforcement to maintain proficiency. Emergency braking, evasive procedures and cornering along with other techniques are a must. A good instructor and/or reputable riding school can help to keep these skills sharp. Then, routinely practice where you can do so safely. Reactions need to be instinctive. Think about this: if a rider is traveling at 40 miles per hour (city speeds), that’s 58.6 feet per second – roughly the length of a semi trailer +/-. If it takes the rider one second to make a decision it may be too late. The distance they have already traveled could have made the difference in their ability to avoid the incident. The ability to instinctively react to a given hazard will substantially increase the odds in our favor. In a situation where an incident is imminent, the manner in which we react is often proportionate to the degree of injury sustained. I cannot say what the skill level was of the rider initially discussed; he may have been well trained. Further, I cannot say what, if any, techniques he employed to avoid the incident. He may have used all that is currently known and performed them flawlessly. None-the-less, what I can say is that the better prepared we are the more likely we are to successfully negotiate whatever is presented. Now, am I naive enough to think all this training will prevent all harm? I don’t think so. Yes, I’m preaching. Yes, there are many riders out there more skillful than I – you may be one of them. No, I don’t know everything and in most cases will usually defer to others on the site. In this case, however, it really doesn’t matter what is thought of all my ramblings as long as you take the necessary steps to prepare yourself. Train regularly and Ride Safe!

Rotor