scaping pegs in unknown blind turns

[Carl_T]

Long in the tooth start, but a good object lesson non the less on how not to take blind unknown turns. Any comments?

 

In hot out stopped.

[David]

He looks like an excellent rider (from a technique standpoint) with poor judgment. The corner tightened up, and going about 60 mph, he just ran out of lean angle, even with excellent body position. He didn't misuse the throttle or brakes, and in fact the tires still had a fair amount of traction left--he just needed higher rearsets.

[bobiverson]

Long in the tooth start, but a good object lesson non the less on how not to take blind unknown turns. Any comments?

 

Hmmmm... I'm not so sure about your premise. Maybe this dude does this road every weekend, and was just being too aggressive on this particular day?

 

Looked like a broken wrist, eh? Not too bad, considering.

[Chrish1234]

and in fact the tires still had a fair amount of traction left--

 

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

IMO, his line is way wide in the second half of the turn, when he tries to pull it in the rear cuts into a slide (look at the smoke and black patch). When he tries to straighten up, the rear hooks up again and high sides him.

 

To his credit, he rode the turn out rather than standing it up and braking when he realized what was going wrong (that probably would have put him over the gaurd rail). Had the rear not hooked back up, it probably would have been a pretty harmless lowside.

 

Chris

[Chrish1234]

Maybe this dude does this road every weekend, and was just being too aggressive on this particular day?

 

Something to do with the camera being present?

 

Chris

[bobiverson]

Something to do with the camera being present?

 

This would suggest familiarity with the area and probably a local location. At least, that would be my best guess and probably the highest level of probability.

[David]

and in fact the tires still had a fair amount of traction left--

 

How do you come to that conclusion?

 

IMO, his line is way wide in the second half of the turn, when he tries to pull it in the rear cuts into a slide (look at the smoke and black patch). When he tries to straighten up, the rear hooks up again and high sides him.

 

To his credit, he rode the turn out rather than standing it up and braking when he realized what was going wrong (that probably would have put him over the gaurd rail). Had the rear not hooked back up, it probably would have been a pretty harmless lowside.

 

The rear comes around, not because it ran out of traction, but because the left peg levered it off the ground. (If it was just a matter of traction, it's almost certain that the front would have washed out before the rear lost traction.)

 

On the right tire on a road like that, properly inflated, up to temperature, and with good technique, you can easily lean until your elbow is on the ground. He simply ran out of clearance before he ran out of traction.

 

Of course, he ran out of judgment before he ran out of clearance.

 

The chain of events was triggered upstream when he passed the guy too close to the curve (obviously, for many reasons), meaning that he couldn't do a late apex without having to cut really, really deep.

[Chrish1234]

I wasn't real clear with my comment, I was kind of alluding that he was showing off for the camera..sorry

 

Chris

[bobiverson]

I wasn't real clear with my comment, I was kind of alluding that he was showing off for the camera..sorry

 

Chris

 

Ya know, you would think -- based on the power of the internet -- that all these idiots would figure out that Camera = Darwinian Moment. But noooooooooo... they don't.

 

"Oh, there's a camera shooting me? Must go fast... must go faster... must look like a stud... must... crash..."

 

D'oh.

[Chrish1234]

The rear comes around, not because it ran out of traction, but because the left peg levered it off the ground. (If it was just a matter of traction, it's almost certain that the front would have washed out before the rear lost traction.)

 

Can't argue the logic in that, but the bike doesn't look like it's over that hard to me. Also, the wear and condition of the rear tire vs front tire would have a great deal of influence on which one cuts out first

 

Of course, he ran out of judgment before he ran out of clearance.

 

The chain of events was triggered upstream when he passed the guy too close to the curve (obviously, for many reasons), meaning that he couldn't do a late apex without having to cut really, really deep.

 

Agreed on all points there

 

Chris

[Chrish1234]

"Oh, there's a camera shooting me? Must go fast... must go faster... must look like a stud... must... crash..."

 

D'oh.

 

 

PS:

B Peterson, J Pilz, or D Sprauge had better not chime in about me and a certain helmet-cam incident that may or may not have happened down in Creel

(It was funny, though)

 

Chris

[Green RT]

 

The rear comes around, not because it ran out of traction, but because the left peg levered it off the ground. (If it was just a matter of traction, it's almost certain that the front would have washed out before the rear lost traction.)

If his rear tire is levered off the ground, what causes the black skid mark that appears just as he washes out? Does it occur after the rear drops back on the ground? It looks too long and continuous for that.

[Carl_T]

I kind of ass-summmmed it was a strange road to him because of the turn configurations. The first one pulls tight, and immediately switches back into a very tight right without a straight to speak of, then goes left again. A goodly portion of the turn is blind as well. It is a chain of turns where you could EASILY encounter a vehicle over the yellow coming the other way in your own lane, that you don’t see coming until it is close. He took it at a speed where IF he managed to make the first turn (which he was not going to do on his line), he most likely would be hard pressed to not go over the yellow on the following right (which a seasoned rider as he appears to be would not do on purpose).

 

To me if I knew the turn configurations, I would never get myself into the turn the way he did to start with (never have, never hope to). Now he has very good technique so he has riding experience, yet he is decidedly WAY HOT for the line he decided to take (suggesting unfamiliarity). He hasn’t enough ground clearance to tighten for the upcoming portion, nor is he on an arc capable of making the tighter section of the turn and is instead near 10/10 on the larger radius portion. This suggests either clueless rider, major brain embolism, or unfamiliar territory. He doesn’t ride clueless.

 

Now a newbie maybe, but a seasoned rider making that large a judgment error on a set of turns he knew well?????? It would be surprising to me unless he was a guy prone to attention loss. He is all wrong for the set of turns from the get go with his decision to pass as he did without slowing properly for the new line.

 

I think he expected the same radius the whole way round, as he would have railed the curve mid lane then. I don’t think he had a clue the right hander was coming up so close after turn 1 either.

 

I downloaded the vid, and stopped it along the way. The BRAKE LIGHT comes on starting the darkie. He lets off it when he feels the slide. There is a point early on where it is obvious that the brake has made his lean angle steeper. The lean angle becomes momentarily so great that something hard HAS to be dragging (very steep angle in the stopped frame). It’s from there that the rear gets out quite badly. Luckily this tightens his line and he high sides in the best possible spot given the situation. Very lucky indeed. A broken wrist is small compared to what that guard rail or cliff could have done to him at that speed.

 

Anyway, I could certainly be way off, but I read it as pushing unknown territory way too hard.

 

He’s also very lucky the couple he passed in THEIR lane didn’t ride up and stomp the bejeezus out of the rest of him for it, rather than be helpful. If they had been asleep at the switch and wandered into his path, he could have hurt or killed them.

 

For me personally it’s a study in riding type to avoid. Go for it when you have empty turns with good visibility.

[PAndie]

My impression is that his back end slides around so far to the right that it's upstream, and he high sides it (or gets high-sided) when the back wheel can no longer spin in his direction of travel.

It's true, he's lucky he didn't get high-sided over the guard rail or into oncoming traffic. I can't particularly see that the back peg has anything to do with it. In the intro to the video, the front peg/shifter is chewed up, the back peg looks tucked up and possibly untouched. I watched the hi-side part over and over - look and see the direction of travel and angle of the back tire when he goes over the top.

 

Interesting, all around, yes?

 

I'm headed out next week w/ 8 friends to do 3000 miles in 12 days, and am hoping we all avoid this ridiculous combo of blind turns, dangerous passing and outrunning our angels.

 

-Andie, Seattle

 

never ride faster than your angels can fly

[tom collins]

i just hope this young rider learned a lesson and lives to be an old rider!

 

in fact, to be fair, that was a good demonstration of what wearing good gear can do as he appeared to be minimally damaged.

 

 

tom collins

[Paul De]

The fateful crash was put in play when he passed the two up bike to the inside of the preferred line, forcing an early apex in the turn he got out of shape on. Had he planned the series of turns to arrive at the slower bike such that he could pass to the outside then he would have been able to be negotiated the turn he crashed in with a more open ark and he could have hit the apex at the prime spot for that corner.......Or since this is the street, he could have cooled his jets and passed the slower bike while driving out of the turn he crashed in, which is a little safer way to go about it. In that case he could have squared up his arc at the apex and drove past the wide arcing cruiser. I’m assuming it was too many turns and miles to the next open straight for a clean and legal pass, which is the safest way to go if you have patients. In any event the cruiser rider has a good squid story for his friends waiting for him at the next tavern sipping on cold beers

 

Who-da-squid My vote is the guy who didn't crash and stopped out on the shoulder without hitting the rider spralled out in the middle of the road

[leikam]

Given the road (south grade on palomar mtn), the bike (R6 = not a tourer) and his apparent riding skills, I'd guess that this guy is a local sportbiker and therefore at least generally familiar with the road and its nature but hadn't memorized that particular set of corners.

 

If he had, he might have waited another second and passed the cruiser on the inside across the double yellow and been set up nicely for turns 2 and 3. Of course, that wouldn't exactly have been fame-worthy. My guess is camera + slowpoke = hot into the turn + headed for a cliff = hard braking in the corner and the highside. Glad to see he didn't go over.

[jgrant]

For those of you not SoCal local, this is the famous Palomar Mtn. It is a squid favorite. The guys who ride the road a lot really know it well. I don't go up there too often (there are actually better and more suitable roads) but when I do I see guys with slicks, guys dragging knees, guys trailering their bikes to the mtn. It is just lame.

What might have happened is that he tried to do some trail braking to tighten his line up. Or he might have just grabbed a lot of brakes because passing that other bike threw him off his line and he got nervous.

In any case the guy really should go to a track instead where he can learn these skills without endangering others or himself.

I knew it was going to be a squidly vid when that annoying music came on

[ADulay]

I knew it was going to be a squidly vid when that annoying music came on

Uh, my thoughts exactly.

 

AD

[Carl_T]

Squidly it was.

 

However, since you guys who know the road figure he knew where he was, it brings a question to my mind that seems appropriate for this discussion area. How many here always have an initial mental line and radius pre-plotted to travel before actually entering a turn?

 

Do any of you that do pre-plot... re-plot, when circumstances have you significantly altering that line?

 

It seems to me a rider familiar with those turns is making a choice where and when to pass, on what line, at what speed for a given radius on his pre-chosen line, and should not be esily be caught out on a known set of turns.

[jgrant]

Squidly it was.

 

However, since you guys who know the road figure he knew where he was, it brings a question to my mind that seems appropriate for this discussion area. How many here always have an initial mental line and radius pre-plotted to travel before actually entering a turn?

 

Do any of you that do pre-plot... re-plot, when circumstances have you significantly altering that line?

 

It seems to me a rider familiar with those turns is making a choice where and when to pass, on what line, at what speed for a given radius on his pre-chosen line, and should not be esily be caught out on a known set of turns.

 

Good question Carl. On roads that I know well I do have a pre-chosen line (although that line may be different from one that I normally use if I think I can improve upon it).

I think that he knew his line but that line was disturbed by the pass. Once he had to alter his line he felt he had too much speed and tried to slow down. I think it was a case of nerves.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Didn't look like nerves to me, I doubt he touched the brake. Near as I could tell, he just flat ran out of ground clearance and levered the rear tire off the ground. That guy had some pretty good skills, look at his body position and the way he re-established his entry point right after the pass. He was just a bit hot and dragged a peg, most rearsets are solid mounted, not folding. In fact, as I look at the video again, he might have gone back into the gas and spun up the rear tire, note the darky chasing him, and maybe he backed off at that point, causing the high side.

 

Too bad for him, that wrist looked painful, the gear did its job though.

[Jake]

He set his line after the pass well enough to make it - I even like the little line adjustment he made. If you listen closely, he got on the throttle at that point (for the soundcrew presumably), quickly realized he had too much speed, then over trailbraked (brake light all lit up).

 

IMO, his right foot did him in. That, and he likely used up his brain margin, thinking too much about the shot vs. doing what he needed to do - get off the brake, roll off the throttle, keep his line and ride it out.

 

Damned video cams - worse than hooved varmin...

[leikam]

I doubt he touched the brake.

 

Ed, did you not see the brake light come on just before the skid mark starts?

[philbytx]

Actually, besides all the "squiddly" posturing...it kind of troubled me that when they were all commenting on the damage (both to the bike and to the rider), their comments appear almost flip...Like it was nothing dude like really it's only money, like it can be fixed like..

 

Am I in the minority that is of the opinion that they appear to have little respect for their bikes, gear or, troublingly, themselves ???

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I saw the light come on and then go off again before the black mark appeared. It may have precipitated the skid but the brake wasn't on during the skid. Still looks to me like the decreasing radius and lack of ground clearance bit him. His rear sets are solid mounted and tubular (very rigid). The ones fitted on my Blackbird (Gilles Machine Works) and on many of the race bikes I have looked at are machined from solid stock and have a big scallop in the bottom center (much less rigid) to allow the peg to bend in that situation. They are also beveled at the very ends so they will tend to slide rather than dig in as the tubular ones are prone to do.

[ESokoloff]

Or he might have just grabbed a lot of brakes because passing that other bike threw him off his line

 

Gets my vote.