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Ah, oh...an oil question!!


Jimmers

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Jimmers

Sorry to ask an oil question because I know it's very controversial, but.......

 

I bought a wet head 2017 R1200RT and plan on using Mobile One 15W50 in it.  I live in central Texas and it’s hot!  Are there any problems using 15W50 synthetic oil, specifically Mobil One 15W50 auto synthetic?

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Oldrider51

The 17 R1200RT has a wet clutch, so I would not use the M1 15w50 auto synthetic, it needs to be JASO MA2 API SL or higher oil. I would probably use 10W-50 motorcycle specific oil if I were to change. Please check your owner's manual for the proper oil. I have a 16 R1200RS and continue to us Castrol Power 1 4T 5w40 JASO MA2 API SL. I am in NW Arkansas and it can get pretty hot here also.

 

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Jimmers

Thanks 'Oldrider51'!  Mobile One synthetic meets ACEA A3/B3 - API SN, SM, SL requirements.  The SL being the same as the Castrol Power 1 requirement.  The owner's manual states 5W40 which is what I currently have in it, but the valve noise is quieter with the M1 15W50.  Valve lash is in spec, BTW.

 

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Dave_in_TX

I also live in Central Texas and have never had a problem using the specified 5w40 oil in my liquid cooled boxers or my 2011 R1200RT. The RT had 110k miles when sold; my 2020 GS had 93k when it got totaled due to bring rear ended; and my 2023 GS has 44k miles.

 

As Oldrider stated,you need to use an oil that meets JASO MA2 which the Mobil 1 doesn't. 

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TSConver
28 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

Thanks 'Oldrider51'!  Mobile One synthetic meets ACEA A3/B3 - API SN, SM, SL requirements.  The SL being the same as the Castrol Power 1 requirement.  The owner's manual states 5W40 which is what I currently have in it, but the valve noise is quieter with the M1 15W50.  Valve lash is in spec, BTW.

 

Does not meet JASO MA2 for wet clutches.  You are ruining your wet clutch with that oil.

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Randyjaco
2 hours ago, TSConver said:

Does not meet JASO MA2 for wet clutches.  You are ruining your wet clutch with that oil.

This is very true. It happened to me and almost ruined my clutch. It does not occur quickly, but over time, you will find that your clutch will start to slip. It will only get worse. There is a thread of mine on this site documenting the problem. If it doesn't say JASO you are playing with fire.

 

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I say this in every oil thread. Why not just use what the manufacturer  who made the engine says you should use and be done with it. 

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Jimmers

I do appreciate all the feed back, but some I will challenge:

 

Here is what I found on the Mobile One site:  Please note the last entry: JASO MA/MA2.  I believe some said Mobile One didn't meet that standard, but it does.


Advanced full synthetic formula designed specifically for motorcycles
Most motorcycles

Mobil 1
Racing™ 4T
10W-40
1150
1260
where clutch lubrication is also important.
where 10W-40 is specified.
API SN
JASO MA/MA2

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Jimmers

@reg26 sorry...I'm just the curios type.  Always trying to improve and sometimes manufacturers can be improved on.  Just wanted some opinions and it looks like I got some.  Never hurts to discuss things now and then...IMHO...Lol!

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TSConver
38 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

I do appreciate all the feed back, but some I will challenge:

 

Here is what I found on the Mobile One site:  Please note the last entry: JASO MA/MA2.  I believe some said Mobile One didn't meet that standard, but it does.


Advanced full synthetic formula designed specifically for motorcycles
Most motorcycles

Mobil 1
Racing™ 4T
10W-40
1150
1260
where clutch lubrication is also important.
where 10W-40 is specified.
API SN
JASO MA/MA2

 

If you are using their 4T oil then you are fine but I do not think M1 makes a motorcycle oil in 15w50. The only 15w50 on their site is a car oil.  It is not wet clutch safe.

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Jimmers

Mob. 1 does make a 20w50 motorcycle oil, but I don't know if it's JASO MA2 approved.  I'll check.

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Just do this 

Castrol Power1 4T 5W-40 Full Synthetic Motorcycle Oil, 1 Quart, Pack of 6

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TSConver
9 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

Mob. 1 does make a 20w50 motorcycle oil, but I don't know if it's JASO MA2 approved.  I'll check.

Nope, made for motors with divorced clutch/transmission bikes, hence the v twin like in harley v twin.

 

Again why not just run what the manual says?  

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Dave_in_TX
55 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

I do appreciate all the feed back, but some I will challenge:

 

Here is what I found on the Mobile One site:  Please note the last entry: JASO MA/MA2.  I believe some said Mobile One didn't meet that standard, but it does.


Advanced full synthetic formula designed specifically for motorcycles
Most motorcycles

Mobil 1
Racing™ 4T
10W-40
1150
1260
where clutch lubrication is also important.
where 10W-40 is specified.
API SN
JASO MA/MA2

That's not the oil the OP was referring to. He was referring to Mobil 1 15w50 which is only for auto use. Mobil 1 motorcycle is fine for use in wethead bikes.

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TSConver
2 minutes ago, Dave_in_TX said:

That's not the oil the OP was referring to. He was referring to Mobil 1 15w50 which is only for auto use. Mobil 1 motorcycle is fine for use in wethead bikes.

 

LOL he is the OP.

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Dave_in_TX
1 minute ago, TSConver said:

Nope, made for motors with divorced clutch/transmission bikes, hence the v twin like in harley v twin.

 

Again why not just run what the manual says?  

Mobil 1 20w50 .motorcycle oil is JASO MA2. However, I see no reason to use that viscosity in a wethead.

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Dave_in_TX
Just now, TSConver said:

 

LOL he is the OP.

That is not the oil he originally referred to.

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TSConver
Just now, Dave_in_TX said:

Mobil 1 20w50 .motorcycle oil is JASO MA2. However, I see no reason to use that viscosity in a wethead.

V Twin oil is not listed as JASO MA2 and it is not API SL, it is older oil for air cooled motors.  Would void the warranty if there was an issue and it was tested.

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TSConver
Just now, Dave_in_TX said:

That is not the oil he originally referred to.

I know, he is all over.

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Jimmers

Here is an email from the Engineers at Mobile One.  I also asked them about the M1 20W50 motorcycle oil.  Waiting for an answer.

 

Jim,
 
Thank you for reaching out to us. Yes, the Mobil 1 Racing 4T is formulated for wet clutch applications.
I have included some links below for your convenience.
 
Mobil 1 product finder.
 
Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 
 
 
If I can help with any other motor oil questions, please respond to this email or call me at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL (800-275-6624).


Thank you for choosing Mobil, 
Cary
Mobil Help Desk Team
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Jimmers

I already agreed that M1 15W50 isn't for motorcycles with wet clutch running in the same oil flow.

 

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TSConver
2 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

Here is an email from the Engineers at Mobile One.  I also asked them about the M1 20W50 motorcycle oil.  Waiting for an answer.

 

Jim,
 
Thank you for reaching out to us. Yes, the Mobil 1 Racing 4T is formulated for wet clutch applications.
I have included some links below for your convenience.
 
Mobil 1 product finder.
 
Mobil 1 Racing 4T 10W-40 
 
 
If I can help with any other motor oil questions, please respond to this email or call me at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL (800-275-6624).


Thank you for choosing Mobil, 
Cary
Mobil Help Desk Team

 

No one is arguing Racing 4T is not for wet clutches.  It is just not the right cold weight as specified inthe owners manual.

 

You originally asked about 15w50 and it is not for wet clutches and you indicated you had used it in your bike when you said the valves are quieter with 15w50.  If you put 15w50 in your engine you have done some damage to the clutch and the longer it is in it the more damage it will do.

 

Why not run what BMW says 5w40, there are plenty of brands out there if you do not want to use Advantec.  I use Motul 7100 in mine.

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Dave_in_TX
9 minutes ago, TSConver said:

V Twin oil is not listed as JASO MA2 and it is not API SL, it is older oil for air cooled motors.  Would void the warranty if there was an issue and it was tested.

You are correct. I was misinformed.

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I think this is a posting in the WetHead section of the forum?

If that is the case, all WetHead BMW have a wet clutch and use the same oil for the motor, clutch and transmission.

I am sure the over worked and under paid engineers at BMW have no clue on what oil is best for the their engines, clutches and transmissions. Most likely they just use any recommendations found on the internet and who ever gives them the biggest kick back.

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Hosstage

This one seemed to bounce all over the place. I actually kept going back and re-reading to get my bearings.

15-50

20-50

10-40

5-40

Automobile oil

Motorcycle oil

4T oil

V Twin oil

Motul thrown in for good measure 

 

Quite a little ride.

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Jimmers

Let's set the post record straight.

 

I didn't know what oil was in the bike when I bought it.  I had been using Mobile One for years in my Harley's with never a problem.  I've been riding for 66 years so no neophyte here.  I had 15w50 on hand and put it in the R1200RT.  Didn't run it long as I had the bike at the dealer to check it out.  All cams, followers, tensioners, etc. were within spec.  They changed the oil and filter.  The oil they used was Liqui-Moly synthetic 4T 5w40 which is currently in the bike.

 

I originally wanted opinions on whether using 15w50 Mobile One (auto) oil would be ok to use.  It's not and I accepted that.  The reason I was looking for a heavier weight oil was to quiet the bike down a bit when hot.  I had enough noise with Harley's!  The dealer said it was normal to hear this and if I wanted to quiet it down a bit I could look for a heavier weight oil since I lived and rode where temps were high 90's or in the 100's.  It seemed that 5w40 was just too light to me.  Perhaps it's not and I just have to put up with engine noise.  I will say that it was quieter when I ran the 15w50 oil, but that's not an option.

 

I'm still looking for an approved heavier oil, but no worries TSConver, I do have good 5w40 oil in it.

 

Thanks for the interesting conversation and please continue!  Fun to see all the differing opinions!

 

 

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Skywagon

Jimmers… I think all were just trying to help. There have been a couple of wetheads here that used not wet clutch oil and ended up having major issues. We’ve also seen several cases here where riders have reported BMW not honoring warranty due to using non-approved oil standards. I think that is why folks responded strongly as opposed to anything you said. 
 

I live in Houston so 90-110 is May-Oct. I’m not sure if an approved 50w would help much, but if you find one and it helps the clacking post up. I would give it a try

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Rougarou

image.thumb.jpg.806b3bdec2d0a12c8826544df9a487c1.jpg

15 hours ago, Bernie said:

I think this is a posting in the WetHead section of the forum?

If that is the case, all WetHead BMW have a wet clutch and use the same oil for the motor, clutch and transmission.

I am sure the over worked and under paid engineers at BMW have no clue on what oil is best for the their engines, clutches and transmissions. Most likely they just use any recommendations found on the internet and who ever gives them the biggest kick back.


Ya, I think the scientist that work for Rougarou have all determined that Rotella T6 is the preferred oil for at least 2006-2019 models 

 

*cant have a oil thread without rotella

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Jimmers

From Mobile One:

 

Jim,
The Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 does not meet the JASC specs. It only has API certifications.
I have included a link below for your convenience.
 
Mobil 1 V-Twin  20W-50
 
If I can help with any other motor oil questions, please respond to this email or call me at 1-800-ASK-MOBIL (800-275-6624).

Thank you for choosing Mobil, 
Cary
Mobil Help Desk Team
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Jimmers

The previous post was for informational purposes only.  This oil is NOT approved for BMW wethead engines!!  (As previously noted!)

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Paul De

Lol,  this oil thread if not confusing, surely is amusing. Use what ever oil you prefer that meets the specification,  particularly the JASO MA1/2 rating for wet clutches. And while under warranty, it might be best to run the branded stuff recommended in the OM just to avoid any hassle from BMW should on the off chance an ugly motor problem occur.  
 

I wonder if caster oil might make a come back and  be the magic elixir oil for all motors.  If it was good enough for great grandpa, it’s got to be good ;)

 

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Hosstage
3 hours ago, Jimmers said:

The previous post was for informational purposes only.  This oil is NOT approved for BMW wethead engines!!  (As previously noted!)

 

Works great in Harleys, though! (As previously noted)

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Project Farm just posted a review of motor oils that included Rotella T6, which is JASO MA2.  This has been covered extensively elsewhere on this forum.  The question about Rotella T6 always migrates to the ambiguous wording in the wethead owner's manual that cautions against using molybdenum additives.  The interesting thing about the Project Farm review is that he posts the oil analysis showing that Rotella T6 has ZERO molybdenum.  I think that is a change from previous formulations of Rotella T6  -- and it should quell objections for use in wethead BMWs.

 

I have tried it in my 2017 R1200RT...  it worked fine, but I thought the shifting was a bit crunchy.  So I use Castrol Power1 4T instead.

 

Cap

 

 

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Dave_in_TX
3 hours ago, Cap said:

Project Farm just posted a review of motor oils that included Rotella T6, which is JASO MA2.  This has been covered extensively elsewhere on this forum.  The question about Rotella T6 always migrates to the ambiguous wording in the wethead owner's manual that cautions against using molybdenum additives.  The interesting thing about the Project Farm review is that he posts the oil analysis showing that Rotella T6 has ZERO molybdenum.  I think that is a change from previous formulations of Rotella T6  -- and it should quell objections for use in wethead BMWs.

 

I have tried it in my 2017 R1200RT...  it worked fine, but I thought the shifting was a bit crunchy.  So I use Castrol Power1 4T instead.

 

Cap

 

 

The Shell T6 doess not meet API SL which is also a requirement for oil used in liquid cooled boxers. In fact, the Shell T6 does not even have an API gas rating. Earlier versions of T6  had both API SL and JASO MA2 rating.

 

As for molybdenum, I have seen virgin oil analysises shpwing the BMW Advantec contains some molybdenum. BMW's wording about about molybdenum additives is ambigous. Some of us believe it refers to off the shelf oill additives, not what the oil manufacturer uses.

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Jimmers

I know this doesn't meet the "cold" limit according to the manufacturer, but i'd like other opinions.  It does meet both API SL and JASO MA2 specs.

 

Opinions?

 

 

Screenshot 2024-07-01 at 4.28.08 PM.jpg

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TSConver

Why are you so bent on running a heavier oil? Today's modern engines have much tighter tolerances and the engineers base their oil on those tolerances.

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dirtrider
26 minutes ago, Jimmers said:

I know this doesn't meet the "cold" limit according to the manufacturer, but i'd like other opinions.  It does meet both API SL and JASO MA2 specs.

 

Opinions?

 

 

Evening Jimmers

 

Opinions? OK

 

It doesn't meet warranty requirements, it is probably too darn vicious so will probably hold the oil filter by-pass valve open most of the time allowing a lot of oil to by-pass the oil filter. 

 

It might not allow proper oil cooling of the stator coils (already a somewhat weak point).  

 

But, your motorcycle, your money, so run it if you must. 

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Jimmers

Just after opinions...thank you very much for yours DR!  BTW...I'm running T4 5w40 in mine. 

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Jimmers
28 minutes ago, TSConver said:

Why are you so bent on running a heavier oil? Today's modern engines have much tighter tolerances and the engineers base their oil on those tolerances.

I thought I explained that previously.  I was after a heavier oil as I live in a very hot climate and do a LOT of touring.  Also, a heavier oil would quiet the cam components down a bit as it is noisy at idle when hot, but does meet tolerance specifications.

 

I am currently running T4 5W40 now which makes the factory happy, but I see nothing wrong with looking for a heavier weight oil to run it it meets specs and is fine with the engine,  The K models are allowed to run the heavier oil BTW.  No need to get your panties in a wad.

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Dave_in_TX
35 minutes ago, TSConver said:

Why are you so bent on running a heavier oil? Today's modern engines have much tighter tolerances and the engineers base their oil on those tolerances.

And most modern oils are better than they were years ago.

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Jimmers
28 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Jimmers

 

Opinions? OK

 

It doesn't meet warranty requirements, it is probably too darn vicious so will probably hold the oil filter by-pass valve open most of the time allowing a lot of oil to by-pass the oil filter. 

 

It might not allow proper oil cooling of the stator coils (already a somewhat weak point).  

 

But, your motorcycle, your money, so run it if you must. 

Thanks DR...that's the kind of info I'm looking for.  That makes sense!   Don't want to bypass the oil filter for sure.

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N. Central TX, ride year round.  Tried many, Rotella T6 keeps my '16 RS happy.  Doesn't hurt that its $24/L at Wallyworld. 

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Stiggy

To add to the mix, my test run of Ultra 1 Plus oil came back yesterday. I am glad that I pulled it at 4,000 miles.

 

Onto Rotella, as I sure would like a 6,000 mile oil change cycle.

 

 

Blackstone Ultra 2.1.pdf

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Jimmers
1 hour ago, Stiggy said:

To add to the mix, my test run of Ultra 1 Plus oil came back yesterday. I am glad that I pulled it at 4,000 miles.

 

Onto Rotella, as I sure would like a 6,000 mile oil change cycle.

 

 

Thanks Stiggy...good info there.  Please let me see the results of the Rotella.  Have you ever tested a  heavier weight oil like 15w50 Liquid-Moly?

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2 hours ago, Stiggy said:

...as I sure would like a 6,000 mile oil change cycle....

 

I've read that some oils are more resistant to shearing from motorcycle applications.  I didn't commit the entire dissertation to memory; my takeaway was that the oil manufacturers are balancing a variety of factors that create a compromise between cost, shear life, wear protection, and so forth.  As a consequence an oil optimized for, say, shear resistance, might be prohibitively expensive or lacking in some other aspect.

 

Based on that limited research, I decided that my approach would be to use an inexpensive oil having the appropriate ratings, and to change it frequently: every 2500-3000 miles.  That particular range of miles coincides with data from one of the research papers I read in which it stated that shearing of oil in motorcycle applications would typically deteriorate viscosity in 2500-3000 miles.  I rarely take a trip longer than 3000 miles, so this works for me.

 

I think this strategy is especially appropriate for those of us with BMW R1200 Wetheads, because of the potential for cam wear.  Frequent oil changes are probably our best insurance against cam failures.

 

Cap

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Paul De

OH-No, you'll have to sew an environmentally naughty scarlet letter on your riding jacket for cutting the specified change intervals in half:grin:  Ha, I have an extra one if you need it.  I believe all of the automotive manufacturers push the usable oil life to the max limit in an effort to reduce any real or perceived impact on the environment.  Definitely the recommended schedule was not defined only by maximizing engine protection.

 

Some might claim you are spending more than needed on consumables, but the 2500-3000 mile change cycle has the added advantage of clearing out dissolved combustion contaminants and slows gunky build up, which is helpful for motor longevity.  I've opened up motors that were abused with the just add oil and infrequent, if ever oil changes and it is ugly in there.

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Dave_in_TX

Without an oil analysis, it's just speculation that more frequent oil changes benefit your bike.

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TSConver
18 minutes ago, Paul De said:

OH-No, you'll have to sew an environmentally naughty scarlet letter on your riding jacket for cutting the specified change intervals in half:grin:  Ha, I have an extra one if you need it.  I believe all of the automotive manufacturers push the usable oil life to the max limit in an effort to reduce any real or perceived impact on the environment.  Definitely the recommended schedule was not defined only by maximizing engine protection.

 

Some might claim you are spending more than needed on consumables, but the 2500-3000 mile change cycle has the added advantage of clearing out dissolved combustion contaminants and slows gunky build up, which is helpful for motor longevity.  I've opened up motors that were abused with the just add oil and infrequent, if ever oil changes and it is ugly in there.

I do an oil change about every 4k.  I also do the final drive every 4k until it starts coming out clear just to clear all the garbage out of it from break in.

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