Bike Cranks but No Start

[BerettaRacer]

2008 K1200S

 

So here's what happened.
I was supposed to be up north going to START rally this week.
Last week getting ready I was riding the bike quite a bit locally, getting the body comfortable in riding position again, testing my new Cardo unit etc etc.
Once or twice I noticed it took an extra second or two to fire, didn't really give it a second thought, bike had been sitting around, not being used much lately.
When time came, started the bike and drove up the trailer, and strapped her down, all normal.
Towed the bike 700+ mi from So Fla to N Ga. where I planned to unload and spend 4-5 days riding Ga, N C, to arrive in Tenn for the rally.
When prepping to unload Sat morning in N Ga the bike would crank fine but not fire, at all.
A quick re-strap, re pack car, and mad dash to BMW dealer in Asheville NC. arriving around 2 PM Sat. Dealer was to busy to even look at it. As he said, "Dude, it's an 18 y/o bike, we're to busy"
It was still 4 days before the rally thought I might have a chance. The rally hotel was only 1 1/2 hrs away, so I decided to go there, get some sleep, regroup.
Sunday morning get up to cold and rain. Bike still mounted on trailer in parking lot. Picked up a can of starting fluid, few light squirts, and she would sputter. Couple more squirts and she would run, quite smoothly for a few seconds.
So that told me I hadn't jumped a timimg chain and smoked the engine. Also told me I had spark.
Little research here on forum to discover all the fuel pump woes.
When turning on ignition I CAN hear fuel pump, but service mgr in Asheville told me that's common, as the housing or hose splits after the pump and doesn't build enough pressure to fire.
A quick look at ebay to see if there was a fuel pump new/used somewhere local. Nothing. No real tools with me anyway.
Still 3 days before crowd would be arriving for the rally.
At that point I decide to pull the plug, and head back home to So Fla. a 15 hr drive. 1900 mi towing in 3 days, and never even unloaded the bike.

Today, in the garage, bike still on trailer, (makes a good work platform), I connected my GA-911. No pertinent codes.
Tried to start the bike and she would sputter a second and die. Still no codes on GS-911.

Checking back paperwork, it says fuel pump was replaced in 2014, before I owned the bike.

Also read a faulty crank position sensor could cause hard startin issues, but she ran pretty smooth for a cpl seconds on starting fluid.

I think it's narrowed down to fuel pump or fuel pressure sensor.

 

------------------------------- 

 

Well this mornings fuel pressure tests are a bit troubling.
I was expecting the GS911 to show low fuel pressure and also visually see fuel movement in the tank indicating a split hose, neither of which happened.
No fuel movement in the tank, and showing 6020 mbar (about 87 psi) pressure.

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

32 minutes ago, BerettaRacer said:

2008 K1200S

 

So here's what happened.
I was supposed to be up north going to START rally this week.
Last week getting ready I was riding the bike quite a bit locally, getting the body comfortable in riding position again, testing my new Cardo unit etc etc.
Once or twice I noticed it took an extra second or two to fire, didn't really give it a second thought, bike had been sitting around, not being used much lately.
When time came, started the bike and drove up the trailer, and strapped her down, all normal.
Towed the bike 700+ mi from So Fla to N Ga. where I planned to unload and spend 4-5 days riding Ga, N C, to arrive in Tenn for the rally.
When prepping to unload Sat morning in N Ga the bike would crank fine but not fire, at all.
A quick re-strap, re pack car, and mad dash to BMW dealer in Asheville NC. arriving around 2 PM Sat. Dealer was to busy to even look at it. As he said, "Dude, it's an 18 y/o bike, we're to busy"
It was still 4 days before the rally thought I might have a chance. The rally hotel was only 1 1/2 hrs away, so I decided to go there, get some sleep, regroup.
Sunday morning get up to cold and rain. Bike still mounted on trailer in parking lot. Picked up a can of starting fluid, few light squirts, and she would sputter. Couple more squirts and she would run, quite smoothly for a few seconds.
So that told me I hadn't jumped a timimg chain and smoked the engine. Also told me I had spark.
Little research here on forum to discover all the fuel pump woes.
When turning on ignition I CAN hear fuel pump, but service mgr in Asheville told me that's common, as the housing or hose splits after the pump and doesn't build enough pressure to fire.
A quick look at ebay to see if there was a fuel pump new/used somewhere local. Nothing. No real tools with me anyway.
Still 3 days before crowd would be arriving for the rally.
At that point I decide to pull the plug, and head back home to So Fla. a 15 hr drive. 1900 mi towing in 3 days, and never even unloaded the bike.

Today, in the garage, bike still on trailer, (makes a good work platform), I connected my GA-911. No pertinent codes.
Tried to start the bike and she would sputter a second and die. Still no codes on GS-911.

Checking back paperwork, it says fuel pump was replaced in 2014, before I owned the bike.

Also read a faulty crank position sensor could cause hard startin issues, but she ran pretty smooth for a cpl seconds on starting fluid.

I think it's narrowed down to fuel pump or fuel pressure sensor.

 

------------------------------- 

 

Well this mornings fuel pressure tests are a bit troubling.
I was expecting the GS911 to show low fuel pressure and also visually see fuel movement in the tank indicating a split hose, neither of which happened.
No fuel movement in the tank, and showing 6020 mbar (about 87 psi) pressure.

 

 

 

 

Morning  BerettaRacer

 

It doesn't sound like crankshaft encoder  (crankshaft sensor), it could be a cam position sensor if it runs as that controls the injector squirt timing. But, a lot of times with a bad camshaft sensor if you try starting it enough times (it sounds like you have) it will time out correctly on the crankshaft sensor to at least fire off. It c-o-u-l-d possibly run on starting fluid with a bad cam sensor (at least I think but haven't ever tried it on a K bike) 

 

See if you can find the camshaft sensor on your GS-911. 

 

You might also try a data trap with your GS-911, see how much active data you can trap with the engine cranking. Then see how much data you can trap with it running for a few seconds on the starting fluid (or see if you can run it on propane from an unlit propane torch.  

 

If it ran prior to the trailer trip & you didn't pull a wire or connection loose with the tiedown straps then it could be water in the fuel tank. Trailering a motorcycle can mix water that was in a pocket in the tank into the general fuel mix.

 

Maybe try siphoning as much fuel out as possible (as low in the tank as possible)  then put it in a glass container or something see-through then see if any water settles to the bottom of the container.   

[BerettaRacer]

18 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  BerettaRacer

 

See if you can find the camshaft sensor on your GS-911. 

 

You might also try a data trap with your GS-911, see how much active data you can trap with the engine cranking. Then see how much data you can trap with it running for a few seconds on the starting fluid (or see if you can run it on propane from an unlit propane torch.  

 

 

Thx

Any idea how to do these things?

I'm only familiar with the basics of a GS911.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, BerettaRacer said:

Thx

Any idea how to do these things?

I'm only familiar with the basics of a GS911.

Afternoon  BerettaRacer

 

Not with enough confidence to keep from confusing you more. If I had a K bike in front of me & a GS-011 in hand it would be piece of cake but I don't even own a K bike any longer. 

 

I don't work on enough K bikes (especially in the 2008 era) to be fluent in the data acquisition from memory. The few times that have needed it I just figure it out as I need certain engine or electronics data. 

 

What GS-911 do you have? The older yellow GS-911 is limited in some active data areas. 

 

 

[BerettaRacer]

Yes, it's an older yellow model, now considered "legacy".

 

I just hit it with starting fluid a cpl of times and it would fire right up and run smoothly for 3-5 secs, sounded very normal.

But I didn't see any change in data from the GS 911.

[BerettaRacer]

So I just looked up the cam sensor on EME

 

Camshaft Position Sensor

• The engine management system adaptation values must be reset by a BMW dealer to recognize the new component.

 

And that's the problem, none of the local BMW dealers will even look at the bike, let alone reprogram the ECU, or whatever.

[dirtrider]

22 minutes ago, BerettaRacer said:

Yes, it's an older yellow model, now considered "legacy".

 

I just hit it with starting fluid a cpl of times and it would fire right up and run smoothly for 3-5 secs, sounded very normal.

But I didn't see any change in data from the GS 911.

Afternoon  BerettaRacer

 

I haven't had a legacy GS-911 on a newer electronic K bike that I can remember.

 

The yellow GS-911 should have (should be able to show) real-time values. It can't trap them internal to teh GS-911 so you will have export to a laptop or computer. I'm not sure if it (yellow GS-911) can reset the cam sensor adaptives or not.   

 

See if you have that option under adaptive-reset.

 

Under   Functions: If I remember correctly,  there should be "start logging" button so see is you log real time info under ECU,  or  sensors, or ??  (I don't remember what the K bike options are)

 

 

[BerettaRacer]

3 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  BerettaRacer

 

I haven't had a legacy GS-911 on a newer electronic K bike that I can remember.

 

The yellow GS-911 should have (should be able to show) real-time values. It can't trap them internal to teh GS-911 so you will have export to a laptop or computer. I'm not sure if it (yellow GS-911) can reset the cam sensor adaptives or not.   

 

See if you have that option under adaptive-reset.

 

 

Yes, in the first post it showed real-time values.

As far as export to laptop, no clue how to do that.

Reset cam sensor adaptives??  Adaptive-reset??  Where would I look for that?? Beyond my knowledge base.

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, BerettaRacer said:

Yes, in the first post it showed real-time values.

As far as export to laptop, no clue how to do that.

Reset cam sensor adaptives??  Adaptive-reset??  Where would I look for that?? Beyond my knowledge base.

Afternoon  BerettaRacer

 

If that is all the realtime values it will show then you are limited to what you can do with the legacy GS-911. About all you can do is prowl around in the different menus to see what re-set options are available. (I haven't used a legacy GS-911 on an electronic K bike in years so I would have to prowl around myself). 

 

Once you find the Realtime values that it will show try clicking the "start logging" icon if it is active.  

[dirtrider]

More:

 

Try NOT pulling the clutch lever in before or while starting (cranking) see if that makes a difference.

 

Try holding the twist grip at about 1/4 throttle while cranking just as test (you might have already tried these things so if you have just disregard).

 

A longshot but try a battery disconnect for about 10 minutes then try starting it again. (another longshot but once in a while it works to reset the electronics)

[BerettaRacer]

2 hours ago, BerettaRacer said:

So I just looked up the cam sensor on EME

 

Camshaft Position Sensor

• The engine management system adaptation values must be reset by a BMW dealer to recognize the new component.
•  

Dirtrider

I found this on the GS911, is this how I would reset the adaptive values if I change the cam sensor??

 

[dirtrider]

33 minutes ago, BerettaRacer said:

Dirtrider

I found this on the GS911, is this how I would reset the adaptive values if I change the cam sensor??

 

Afternoon BerettaRacer

 

The BMSK is the fueling computer so the is where the adaptions are. Those are typically just fueling & spark adaptions but c-o-u-l-d include cam sensor adaptions. 

 

About the only way to know is to log the BMSK engine sensor values then see if it includes the cam sensor values, then see if they change after a reset.

 

Being a "legacy" GS-911 & my lack of specific K 1200S data string background you probably just need to go through all the menus & sub menus until you either find what you are looking for or can't find it as it isn't available. 

 

Who knows if your "legacy"  GS-911 is even updated to the latest firmware that was available. I still own one but haven't had it in my own hands for a couple of years now as it keeps getting passed around to the old BMW 1100/1150 owners in my riding group. That legacy GS-911 is still useful on the older 1100/1150 as they didn't output much info.  

 

I probably wouldn't put a lot of effort into the cam sensor as I still believe your problem is with something else like fuel flow or water in the fuel. 

 

I know you do show fuel pressure (electronically anyhow)  but that could be misleading.

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

 Afternoon BerettaRacer

 

I just looked up your fuel pressure requirements & it is a fair amount lower than your GS-911 data shows above.

 

Your K bike doesn't have a fuel return type system, it is an on-demand type fueling system (just a pressure hose). 

 

The fuel pressure sensor tells the BMSK to run (pulse) the fuel pump in relation to fuel demand needed. 

 

With that high fuel pressure showing then possibly your fuel pressure sensor is lying to the BMSK, if the BMSK thinks the fuel pressure is OK, or too high, it might not run the fuel pump. 

 

Can you access the fuel pump power wire & disconnect that? If so, disconnect the fuel pump power then do a key-on and/or an engine cranking . If it still shows high fuel pressure (even with pump disconnected) then suspect a problem with the fuel pressure sensor causing the BMSK to not run the pump.   

 

Personally, I would also find a NOID light that fits one of your fuel injector connectors then plug that in & see if the BMSK is pulsing a fuel injector during engine cranking. If it is then your cam sensor is reporting to the BMSK. 

 

If you have cranking injector pulses, and have a spark,  And it runs on starting fluid then you are probably left with  either no/or low fuel pressure, or a supply or contaminated fuel issue. 

 

Most auto parts stores have inexpensive NOID lights, you just need to find the correct connector/terminal match up to your injector wire harness connector. 

 

You can use a 12v LED but the polarity needs to be correct for it to flash correctly.