The cheapest thing on a BMW is the rider... yeah, this is an oil thread...

[Twisties]

The specification for engine/tranny oil on my 1250 GS is "SAE 5W-40, API SL/JASO MA2."  I put this in the shiftcam forum because I assume it's the same for all of the shiftcam engines.  I know we have folk that strongly hold that an oil must meet and be labeled with both the SL and the JASO MA2 standards. I'm no oil expert.  But what I read in other forums suggests that's it one or the other, and preferably JASO MA2.  Precious few are labeled with both.  In fact, the BMW Advantec Ultimate is labeled SN/JASO MA2.  JASO MA2 is apparently meant for motorcycles with wet clutches. 

 

So far I've been using Motul 7100.  It does have both the SL and JASO MA2 labels, and I searched all around the web for it's molybdenum content and found it seems to be less than BMW's.  It's a bit cheaper than the BMW stuff, but nothing earth shattering. 

 

Now enter Shell Rotella T6.  A full synthetic motor oil with the JASO MA2 label, but marketed for diesel engines.  It's available locally in a nice 5W-40 for half the price of the Motul and a third the price of the BMW Advantec Ultimate.   If you adhere to the JASO MA2 or API SL theory, it would appear to meet the specification.  If you adhere to the JASO MA2 and SL theory, it would not. 

 

So, 

 

1.  What's your feeling on what BMW's intent is, SL or JASO MA2  OR  SL and JASO MA2....  please provide any evidence you have to support your view.  Convince me.

2.  Would it be crazy to use the Rotella T6?  Why?

 

P.S.  I'll almost certainly continue with the Motul, but I am just curious what people think, and if there is any actual evidence one way or the other.

 

 

[dirtrider]

40 minutes ago, Twisties said:

The specification for engine/tranny oil on my 1250 GS is "SAE 5W-40, API SL/JASO MA2."  I put this in the shiftcam forum because I assume it's the same for all of the shiftcam engines.  I know we have folk that strongly hold that an oil must meet and be labeled with both the SL and the JASO MA2 standards. I'm no oil expert.  But what I read in other forums suggests that's it one or the other, and preferably JASO MA2.  Precious few are labeled with both.  In fact, the BMW Advantec Ultimate is labeled SN/JASO MA2.  JASO MA2 is apparently meant for motorcycles with wet clutches. 

 

So far I've been using Motul 7100.  It does have both the SL and JASO MA2 labels, and I searched all around the web for it's molybdenum content and found it seems to be less than BMW's.  It's a bit cheaper than the BMW stuff, but nothing earth shattering. 

 

Now enter Shell Rotella T6.  A full synthetic motor oil with the JASO MA2 label, but marketed for diesel engines.  It's available locally in a nice 5W-40 for half the price of the Motul and a third the price of the BMW Advantec Ultimate.   If you adhere to the JASO MA2 or API SL theory, it would appear to meet the specification.  If you adhere to the JASO MA2 and SL theory, it would not. 

 

So, 

 

1.  What's your feeling on what BMW's intent is, SL or JASO MA2  OR  SL and JASO MA2....  please provide any evidence you have to support your view.  Convince me.

2.  Would it be crazy to use the Rotella T6?  Why?

 

P.S.  I'll almost certainly continue with the Motul, but I am just curious what people think, and if there is any actual evidence one way or the other.

 

 

Afternoon Jan

 

The JASO MA2 is the important part as that is wet clutch rated. The SL or SN part is usually not a big deal. 

 

With neither an SL or an SN rating then you have no idea on how it would effect your catalytic converter or the newer (expensive) wide band o2 sensors. 

 

Rotella T6 might be just fine but then again it might not (we need some beta testers)

 

If your motorcycle is still under BMW warranty then you might want to have receipts that show that you used the BMW required motor oil. 

 

Not exactly on point but I have used Rotella T6 in a couple on my off-road dirt bikes & it seems to work great (wet clutch wise) for a while but the clutch operation/shifting seems to become notably worse a lot sooner than when using a proper rated motor oil (it feels like possibly an early shearing issue but I haven't had it tested to verify that statement)  

 

The one question you need to ask yourself is WHY is the Rotella T6 is a lot cheaper. A little of that might be due to the lack of getting an API rating but for as much of it as they sell it can't be a lot of difference per quart.

[JCtx]

Yep, it's like Dirtrider said. I agree the most important spec is the JASO MA2 one, since that'd directly affect your engine. But the SL/SN one could affect your cat, which in turn could also affect your engine if it gets clogged... although that'd be over a long period of time IMO. But why compromise the cat just to save a few bucks on oil? Makes no sense to me, since cats are very expensive, but to each his own, I guess. By the way, I use Castrol Power1 4T, which is often on sale on Amazon at $54, so $9 a quart. It has both BMW specs.

[Stiggy]

FWIW

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/shell-rotella-t4-15w-40-now-sn-rated.372381/

[Twisties]

So, in the past some moto manufacturers specified an older API classification (SJ or SG  IIRC) in order to protect the wet clutch, and I thought perhaps BMW was acting in a similar manner saying SL.  But, it seems you guys think they mean SL or higher?  SN is ok?

[dirtrider]

27 minutes ago, Twisties said:

So, in the past some moto manufacturers specified an older API classification (SJ or SG  IIRC) in order to protect the wet clutch, and I thought perhaps BMW was acting in a similar manner saying SL.  But, it seems you guys think they mean SL or higher?  SN is ok?

Afternoon Jan

 

I doubt that API SG rated oil would even come close to an MA2 rating.  That stuff has enough ZDDP in it to make the world slide sideways. 

 

One of the BIG problems with the API oil rating system is the automotive backwards compatible thing. With that being in place it doesn't take long for an API oil  rating to become obsolete.

 

Until very recently most automobile oils were  almost totally backwards compatible, this hasn't always been the case with motorcycle oils. BMW even published a service Bulltin to not use SJ or SH oils in the 1100/1150 boxer engines.

 

You might very well have a new (current oil) that could or would meet the old SG API rating but you can't get it tested & approved for that as the SG rating is obsolete. API won't even test for that compliance any longer. 

 

The SL & the SM might be under that condition as  it might be difficult to get a current SL rating even though it meets the SL specification. Very possible that the BMW SL rated oil would now be tested under the SM requirements then get an SM rating. 

 

 

I have seen a few modern motorcycle oils that say meets SG requirement but it hasn't been tested for or API rated as an official SG oil. (you need to watch for an actual API rating rather that meets this or that spec) 

[dirtrider]

29 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

FWIW

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/shell-rotella-t4-15w-40-now-sn-rated.372381/

Evening Stiggy

 

 

I don't see a API SN rating just a "meets SN specs".  I'm not suer if it actually has an API SN rating or if was self-tested to meet that spec. It might be API SN but then again it might not be (something to look into farther)

[Stiggy]

34 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening Stiggy

 

 

I don't see a API SN rating just a "meets SN specs".  I'm not suer if it actually has an API SN rating or if was self-tested to meet that spec. It might be API SN but then again it might not be (something to look into farther)

Hello DR

 

I took the "meets API SN specs" as to have been tested by the manufacturer without the trouble or expense of paying API to get the certification.

 

With reputations on the line, I would hope that they wouldn't shave any points! :)

 

As to SN vs SL, I found this:

 

Can SN oils replace SL oils?

 

 

The higher the letter, the more recent the technology of the oil. For recent oil, the higher specification will supersede the lower letter grade. For example, if we have an oil with specification SN, it can also be used for vehicles which request API SM, SL and SJ; it is backward compatible.Jul 30, 2020 (Bizol)

 

As said above, with the wet clutches, the JASO MA2 is the critical designation IMO.

 

 

[dirtrider]

42 minutes ago, Stiggy said:

Hello DR

 

I took the "meets API SN specs" as to have been tested by the manufacturer without the trouble or expense of paying API to get the certification.

 

With reputations on the line, I would hope that they wouldn't shave any points! :)

 

As to SN vs SL, I found this:

 

Can SN oils replace SL oils?

 

 

The higher the letter, the more recent the technology of the oil. For recent oil, the higher specification will supersede the lower letter grade. For example, if we have an oil with specification SN, it can also be used for vehicles which request API SM, SL and SJ; it is backward compatible.Jul 30, 2020 (Bizol)

 

As said above, with the wet clutches, the JASO MA2 is the critical designation IMO.

 

 

Evening  Stiggy

 

It very well could have been self tested, think BMW will buy that for warranty requirements? 

 

As for the backwards compatibility, that is true for most modern automobile applications but not always true for motorcycles or performance vehicles. Probably not enough difference between a SL & SM but an SL or SM usually can't be used (for long term anyhow) in an SG requirement situation or on engines with non roller cams & heavy valve springs. 

 

 

[Skywagon]

I change oil about twice a year. I just buy owners manual recommended. It might cost me an extra pizza a year. 
 

That said, I paid $4.39 for Chevron premium today.  In Texas… we don’t do that. We get rattled at $3/gallon 😭

[Dave_in_TX]

I don't think the Rotella 15w40 is synthetic unlike the 6w40 T6.

[c10]

I tested T6 against Advantech . Blackstone Labs .  T6 outperformed the Advantech slightly  here is 3 samples tested . The 3rd sample is T6 with a extra few miles and harder use in warmer weather conditions 

23 R1250RS 3rd oil test.pdf

 

 

[c10]

I also want to know how oil choice affects you catalytic converter ?  Because if your burning oil past the piston rings any oil is going make it to the cat . 

 

It does not matter in my application as Cat was removed @ 18 miles for a catless header .  

[Twisties]

@c10 Is just the last test Rotella?  Thanks for posting!

[c10]

yes 3rd is Rotella . 1st two are OEM BMW Shell Advantech 5w 40  . Ill be sending in a sample in June .  I 'm going 4 k roughly on  T6 to send in for fun . 

 

I have run Rotella for 20 years now in race applications .  I recommend no more than 5 k on Any oil .  I have a KTM friend than runs the 10K book interval .  Like to see that oil sample , but won't happen  

[JCtx]

4 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

I don't think the Rotella 15w40 is synthetic unlike the 6w40 T6.

It is NOT indeed. Plus it's a diesel oil, and seems like not officially Sx rated (I don't believe the API would rate a diesel oil as Sx, which is for gasoline engines only). Anyway, I wouldn't use that oil on my bike even if free (and neither the T6, but at least that one is synthetic). I'm all for savings when it makes sense, like with the Mahle filters from Beemer Boneyard, rather than BMW. But using diesel non-synthetic oil, especially under warranty, just makes no sense to me, but to each his own.

[Dave_in_TX]

1 hour ago, JCtx said:

It is NOT indeed. Plus it's a diesel oil, and seems like not officially Sx rated (I don't believe the API would rate a diesel oil as Sx, which is for gasoline engines only). Anyway, I wouldn't use that oil on my bike even if free (and neither the T6, but at least that one is synthetic). I'm all for savings when it makes sense, like with the Mahle filters from Beemer Boneyard, rather than BMW. But using diesel non-synthetic oil, especially under warranty, just makes no sense to me, but to each his own.

The Rotella T6 had both gas and diesel API ratings until it was reformulated years ago. Back then, it was categorized as a "fleet oil".

[realshelby]

When the Wetheads first came out It was even harder to find a 5-40 oil. I looked at using Rotella T-6 but it carried no JASO rating of any kind. But from the specs it sure looked good for the Wethead. Called the Shell offices here in Houston. Actually talked with an engineer there, surprisingly happy to talk about these ratings. He said the current T-6 does meet all JASO specs ( don't remember if JASO II was out then..). He actually sent a link to a Shell brochure saying that. I used T-6 for 2-3 oil changes, even had it tested. Good oil, and test results were very good.....except the viscosity was a tad below the lower average number. The report said that is quite normal when used in motorcycle applications. I assume that is shear from transmission. Then.....Shell changed the formula. I called again. Now NOT SAE rated for gasoline engines. Two things here. Guy said T-6 was to be marketed for diesel application and there were going to be other products marketed toward the SAE market. Yes, there was a slight change in formula.....that might not matter but did not meet certain SAE specs. I forget what was increased, but it was the stuff that O2 sensors and catalytic converters do NOT like. So, I went to Liqui=Moly. I will tell you Liqui-Moly is better. Where the T-6 shifting was going downhill by 5K miles, the Liqui-Moly felt ok for much longer. Testing shows that both are about equal in wear parts. I was told to feel free to go to 9K intervals from two samples at 7K. 

[c10]

T6 5w-40 is Jaso rated and  in my report provided above it has better viscosity than Shell made BMW 5W 40 Adventec .   Read what is said about my 2nd oil test of Adventech 

Viscosity is low but not a concern . Good for 5 K on TBN test 

 

 

[c10]

Two things to note On BMW Adventec 5w 40 .  One is its made from Natural gas vs crude .  Two its is carrying a BMW Logo . The 2nd item is what really turns the price up . 

[c10]

• JASO MA2: This is a higher standard specification for modern motorcycles. These oils are suitable for use in motorcycles that have catalytic converters in the exhaust system.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, c10 said:

Two things to note On BMW Adventec 5w 40 .  One is its made from Natural gas vs crude .  Two its is carrying a BMW Logo . The 2nd item is what really turns the price up . 

Afternoon c10

 

I have been using the T-6 15w40 in a couple of my diesel tractors for the last couple of years  (winter usage only), it significantly improved below 15°f cold cranking & fire-off labored idling.

 

But it increase oil usage & definitely increased engine oil seepage when it gets hot.  I found oil seepage that was not there with the T-4 oil. 

[c10]

A fun read 

 

 

https://blog.amsoil.com/is-motor-oil-made-from-natural-gas-better/#:~:text=Because oil made using GTL,oil using natural gas include…

[Cap]

22 hours ago, realshelby said:

... Where the T-6 shifting was going downhill by 5K miles...

 

I tried Rotella T6 in my 2017 R1200RT.  I had been using an oil called Ravenol which is a synthetic ester, and what I found was that shifting was "crunchy" using the Rotella.  Ravenol is pretty expensive, and so I tried Castrol Power1 4T instead, and found that shifting was improved compared to Rotella, and the cost is lower than Ravenol especially if you catch the periodic sale price for a case of 6 quarts on Amazon. 

 

I am sure that Rotella is just fine for engine lubrication on our bikes... but I prefer the smoother shifting from other oils.

 

cap

[dirtrider]

22 minutes ago, Cap said:

 

I tried Rotella T6 in my 2017 R1200RT.  I was using an oil called Ravenol which is a synthetic ester, and what I found was that shifting was "crunchy" using the Rotella.  Ravenol is pretty expensive, and so I tried Castrol Power1 4T instead, and found that shifting was improved compared to Rotella, and the cost is lower than Ravenol especially if you catch the periodic sale price for a case of 6 quarts on Amazon. 

 

I am sure that Rotella is just fine for engine lubrication on our bikes... but I prefer the smoother shifting from other oils.

 

cap

Afternoon Cap

 

I don't know what it is about that Castrol Power1 4T  but that is the best shifting for the longest time in my 800GS. 

 

Almost all oils shift decent in my 800GS for a short time after an oil change but shifting degrades quickly,  the Castrol Power1 4T so far has shifted best for the longest after an oil change. 

 

I think it is a clutch drag thing as all the oils I have tried shift about the same when shifting without using the clutch, but in the lower gears where I use the clutch for shifting it is more obvious. 

 

 

[Dave_in_TX]

My BMW boxers have shifted more smoothly with Liqui Moly or Motul than with Castrol.Power.

[Skywagon]

2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Castrol Power1 4T

That’s what my manual calls for and it’s the only oil my bike has ever had in it. 

[Twisties]

The Castrol isn't available locally.  They had a great price advertised at O'Reilly, but could not get it in stock here, or even do a special order.  They had thousands of units in Chicago, but the way they run their distribution it was unavailable here.  So far I guess I've missed the sales at Amazon.  I'll watch for that.  

FWIW, the Motul 7100 seems to be a great product.  I like the shifting, and it clearly meets the specification.  On Amazon it's usually around $50 for a 4 L jug.  

[9Mary7]

2 hours ago, Twisties said:

Motul 7100 seems to be a great product.

Agreed..... and it made the most power on our racebike dyno tests..... slightly better than Motul 300V.

[Steveyacht]

17 hours ago, Twisties said:

The Castrol isn't available locally.  They had a great price advertised at O'Reilly, but could not get it in stock here, or even do a special order.  They had thousands of units in Chicago, but the way they run their distribution it was unavailable here.  So far I guess I've missed the sales at Amazon.  I'll watch for that.  

FWIW, the Motul 7100 seems to be a great product.  I like the shifting, and it clearly meets the specification.  On Amazon it's usually around $50 for a 4 L jug.  

Amazon is local to everyone.

[Rougarou]

Rotella in the HP4, RT and now GSA (since freebie 600 miler), no oil related hiccups.  This is over a combined 200k on Rotella.

[Twisties]

14 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Rotella in the HP4, RT and now GSA (since freebie 600 miler), no oil related hiccups.  This is over a combined 200k on Rotella.

T6?

[Rougarou]

13 minutes ago, Twisties said:

T6?

 

Yep, 2.5 gallon jug at wal-mart is $56

 

And, you can get a nifty $25 gift card from Shell

 

time to stock up a bit.

[Stiggy]

On 4/21/2024 at 11:02 AM, Cap said:

 

I tried Rotella T6 in my 2017 R1200RT.  I had been using an oil called Ravenol which is a synthetic ester, and what I found was that shifting was "crunchy" using the Rotella.  Ravenol is pretty expensive, and so I tried Castrol Power1 4T instead, and found that shifting was improved compared to Rotella, and the cost is lower than Ravenol especially if you catch the periodic sale price for a case of 6 quarts on Amazon. 

 

I am sure that Rotella is just fine for engine lubrication on our bikes... but I prefer the smoother shifting from other oils.

 

cap

That's interesting as I've also got a '17 RT (excellent shifter!) and just recently switched to  Ultra One Plus oil. Seems the same shifting wise, but the oil is new and I'll pay attention to any change in 'feel' as to how it changes gears.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Toter]

I use the Rotella T6 in my Ford dually diesel. Tried it in my Yamaha FJR and like others have stated, I find that the shifting quickly becomes notchy and rough. Agree that it does not tolerate the shearing from the transmission gears. I have found Mobil 1 Racing 4T to be the best and smoothest shifting oil in my GS's, and the FJR. It isn't cheap though.

[dmsantam]

On 4/21/2024 at 6:37 AM, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Jan

 

I doubt that API SG rated oil would even come close to an MA2 rating.  That stuff has enough ZDDP in it to make the world slide sideways. 

 

I have seen a few modern motorcycle oils that say meets SG requirement but it hasn't been tested for or API rated as an official SG oil. (you need to watch for an actual API rating rather that meets this or that spec) 

Not sure about in the States, but we have oils in Australia that are certified Jason ma (not ma2) and API SG. e.g.

https://penriteoil.com.au/products/mc-4st-mineral-20w-50

 

However I can't tell if it is an actual API rating, or it just meets the performance level. 

 

cheers

Edited June 8, 2024 by dmsantam