Self Canceling Turn Signal Settings

[Paul De]

I have always thought the self canceling turn signal timeout settings were set way too long and more of a hazard confusing other drivers if not manually cancelled.

 

So today I was perusing various settings on my Wethead with the gs911 and found the parameters for the turn signal self cancelling function were adjustable.  Default  settings were 10 seconds & 300 meters with both parameters needing to be met before cancelling.   I guessed revised settings at 8 seconds and 100 meters and will try that out soon.  
 

Has anybody played with those settings and found a magic combination of time and distance that work well around town and on the highway?

 

 

[dirtrider]

8 minutes ago, Paul De said:

I have always thought the self canceling turn signal timeout settings were set way too long and more of a hazard confusing other drivers if not manually cancelled.

 

So today I was perusing various settings on my Wethead with the gs911 and found the parameters for the turn signal self cancelling function were adjustable.  Default  settings were 10 seconds & 300 meters with both parameters needing to be met before cancelling.   I guessed revised settings at 8 seconds and 100 meters and will try that out soon.  
 

Has anybody played with those settings and found a magic combination of time and distance that work well around town and on the highway?

 

 

Afternoon Paul

 

Personally I turn that turn signal nanny off as it causes me way more grief than help. At times it is dangerous if they cancel early or cancel part way through a turn.  

 

On the ones that I can't turn completely off I set to max time & max distance just to get the darn thing out of my way as much as possible. 

 

 

[Paul De]

TETO.  I have found the self cancel more helpful than not as I am more inclined to forget to cancel and have someone turn left in front of me.  I have a Kisan Signalminder on the Oilhead set to 7 or 8 seconds with the brake light on pause timer function and like it a lot.  I’ve rarely needed to reactivate the signal, usually only while at a stop light on flat ground with no brake engaged.

[JCtx]

I really like what Yamaha did with the new MT-09 I was checking out for my cousin: The switch is like a car, with a detent that activates 3 to 5 flashes. And if you want it on, just push it all the way. Not sure if done all the way also has a cancelling feature, but I'd be very happy with that arrangement. Having said that, my bike pretty much does 3 to 4 flashes at speed, so no issues at all on the highway. But in town, I just can't figure out what's the freaking logic. The few times I've noticed, the darn thing turns off when I don't want them to, like somebody else already alluded to that. So will check what are the possible options with the GS911. I wasn't aware there was a way to program them, so learned something new today. Ha ha.

[cookie]

Not relevant to the Wetheads, but the self-canceling algorithm on late model Harley-Davidsons works amazingly well. I don't know their secrets, but I am only "better" than my Road King on a very good day and the Road King does a better job than me on a bad or average day. I wish BMW would just license H-D's system. If the H-D system has any fault, it is that it will sometimes cancel prematurely if, say, there is a left-right-left section before an intended turn, but that is easily avoided by just holding the signal button in.

[Paul De]

2 hours ago, cookie said:

Harley-Davidsons works amazingly well.

Yes indeed they do work well.  I’ve ridden my brothers Road King and a  few of a friend’s Ultra Classics and was always impressed with the functionality. Always seemed to cancel at the perfect time.

 

Hope this isn’t some folk lore, and if memory serves as I picked up this tid-bit a long while back,  the Hawg Engineers designed their system to use three parameters. Time, distance and a lean angle sensor.  The lean angle sensor algorithm overrides the time distance algorithm which is calibrated for the highway.

[Paul De]

8 hours ago, JCtx said:

So will check what are the possible options with the GS911. I wasn't aware there was a way to program them, so learned something new today. Ha ha.

I had not seen access to that parameter before either.  The GS911 software had an update come through yesterday that I installed, maybe that capability was recently added.

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, Paul De said:

I had not seen access to that parameter before either.  The GS911 software had an update come through yesterday that I installed, maybe that capability was recently added.

Morning Paul

 

The turn signal time has been adjustable with the GS-911 for a long time now (even back on the hexhead bikes).

[Paul De]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Paul

 

The turn signal time has been adjustable with the GS-911 for a long time now (even back on the hexhead bikes).

Good to know.  I'm not surprised I overlooked that setting as I have not had a lot of time prowling the GS911 menus for my Wethead yet.

 

The more I think about it, the issue isn't so much the time setting but the default distance setting.  If both parameters must be met before an auto cancel happens and the default distance set at 300 meters, which is almost 1,000 feet, when in the city you'll travel 2 to 3 blocks before an auto cancel.  Adding in entries to parking lots and home driveways could lead to a lot of miscues to drivers of a forgotten manual cancel.   At 65 MPH covering 300 meters will take about 10 seconds, which is fine on the highway. 

 

I think the starting point for a useful auto cancel function with the time set to 8 seconds and distance set to 100 meters for either city or Highway driving might be close to what I'm looking for.   At 25 MPH covering 100 meters takes 9 seconds, at 35 MPH 6 seconds, at 50 MPH 4 seconds.  So for any speed under 28 MPH, distance will dictate the auto cancel which is still a football field long.  Over 28 MPH, the minimum 8 second time will rule the auto cancel.  I'll report back for those who want to make the auto cancel perform better than what BMW set up for that system.

[JCtx]

I forgot to add that I never rely on auto-cancel. I only leave it to auto-cancel on highways sometimes, since I know for a fact it only flashes the 3 to 4 times I want anyway... but I still consciously look at the dash to make sure they canceled. That's because I use other bikes without that feature. So basically I leave the auto-cancel feature in case I forget, which makes it a nice safety feature. As a side comment, I never leave turn-signals on for long. Once I'm in a dedicated turn lane with a vehicle behind, I turn them off. I only turn them on when I'm going to turn left if I'm turning without a green turn arrow, or other such times when it makes sense. But those who rely on the auto-cancel feature, it'd be good to learn about the algorithm, to also understand when it's best to turn them on initially. If you turn them off too early, then they might cancel at the wrong time.

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, Paul De said:

Good to know.  I'm not surprised I overlooked that setting as I have not had a lot of time prowling the GS911 menus for my Wethead yet.

 

The more I think about it, the issue isn't so much the time setting but the default distance setting.  If both parameters must be met before an auto cancel happens and the default distance set at 300 meters, which is almost 1,000 feet, when in the city you'll travel 2 to 3 blocks before an auto cancel.  Adding in entries to parking lots and home driveways could lead to a lot of miscues to drivers of a forgotten manual cancel.   At 65 MPH covering 300 meters will take about 10 seconds, which is fine on the highway. 

 

I think the starting point for a useful auto cancel function with the time set to 8 seconds and distance set to 100 meters for either city or Highway driving might be close to what I'm looking for.   At 25 MPH covering 100 meters takes 9 seconds, at 35 MPH 6 seconds, at 50 MPH 4 seconds.  So for any speed under 28 MPH, distance will dictate the auto cancel which is still a football field long.  Over 28 MPH, the minimum 8 second time will rule the auto cancel.  I'll report back for those who want to make the auto cancel perform better than what BMW set up for that system.

Evening Paul

 

All this trying to figure out when it does what & at what speed & keep track of it all makes my head spin (I have many motorcycles) some with auto cancel & others without. Some need the handlebars turned to initiate the auto cancel function & others need time + distance). I just turn it all off (or set to longest distance & time if off isn't possible)  then  always manually cancel. 

 

Even my old beater Harley drove me crazy (I had to cut a wire to stop that one from auto canceling), it had what lot of riders liked in that at lower speeds it wouldn't start the auto cancel until the handlebars were turned going around a corner. Problem is, I am a balancer at short stops or at very/very low creeping speeds & that can take some aggressive handlebar input to keep from putting a foot down, & THAT would start the auto cancel cycle prematurely. 

 

I have been riding motorcycles from before most even had turn signals. I have auto-cancel ingrained in my riding skill set. I ALWAYS hit T/S cancel after a turn even if I didn't use the darn things.  If it becomes an automatic reaction then it is a no brainer as it gets done automatically even without thinking about it. 

 

I never understood how a rider can think to turn the turn signals ON but then not do the same for turning them OFF. The ON part is done so repeatably  that the rider doesn't think about it, the OFF part is not done consistently so it isn't ingrained in their riding skill set.   

[Ozzyal]

It is a PITA  .  I don't think I've ever had a problem leaving the signal on  , but I know I've gone to cancel them and they weren't even on because they'd cancelled early  , leaving me wondering if I was stopped in the middle of the road waiting for traffic without the signal  . 

[9Mary7]

Interestingly, the analog/mechanical auto cancelling system on my 35 year old PC800 seems to be timed perfectly......

[Paul De]

14 hours ago, 9Mary7 said:

Interestingly, the analog/mechanical auto cancelling system on my 35 year old PC800 seems to be timed perfectly......

That's sort of the point.  It can be done, it has been done.  This technology isn't even all that new. BMW put it on the bike and the adjustable parameters could make it function acceptably in most instances.  As delivered it does not in any instance. We shall see if the functionality can be improved to bring it close to the best out there. So if I, or someone else on BMWST, land on what are a better combination of time and distance than the default numbers we can share it for those who care to improve the auto cancel functionality.  Those that want to defeat auto cancelling just put in the max allowable meters and seconds and you're good to go. By the way, does anybody know what those maximums are?

 

I get it about the like or dislike of auto cancelling turn signals.  LOL. I've been riding long enough that my first street legal bike required hand signals as the magneto powered lighting system was so feeble it couldn't even support a head and tail lamp let alone turn indicators. That bike required pulling in the clutch and revving the motor to be sure the brake light might be bright enough for a driver to see.  If you use hand signals today I'm sure a goodly number of drivers would think your doing some type of TikTok routine.  I also remember my local riding community back in 1974 bitched when turn signals became mandatory along with battery/alternator power for reliable and useful lighting.  They howled too when electric start was broadly introduced (although kick starting a big bore motor did sort of keep the way drunk idiots from riding off in such a state).  And even I was a bit concerned when manufacturers dropped the kick start lever altogether.  But the good 'ol days always give way and usually for the better. My guess is that the whippersnappers who take over the motorcycle community as us old farhts ride off into sunset would think auto cancel turn signals are a table stake feature.  TETO

[old_farmer]

I'm just amazed at how well the self-cancelling works on my 04 Sportster tractor bike. Not as much so for my RT, for reasons already discussed here.

[Paul De]

Yep, the default BMW settings aren’t ideal, to put it politely. I had a moment to take a short ride today and while my first guess at time and distance numbers  still need tweaking the results were promising. I’ll try increasing distance by 10 to 20 percent and the time might actually might need to be increased from default when using a shorter distance setting from default.
 

The BMW engineers used a time and distance settings that makes anything other that a lane change on an interstate at speed not useful. And even at speed on a super slab the default setting is longish to cancel.

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, Paul De said:

Yep, the default BMW settings aren’t ideal, to put it politely. I had a moment to take a short ride today and while my first guess at time and distance numbers  still need tweaking the results were promising. I’ll try increasing distance by 10 to 20 percent and the time might actually might need to be increased from default when using a shorter distance setting from default.
 

The BMW engineers used a time and distance settings that makes anything other that a lane change on an interstate at speed not useful. And even at speed on a super slab the default setting is longish to cancel.

Morning Paul 

 

BMW has sort of addressed the distance vs time thing on the newer 1250 bikes, time out can depend on IF the turn signal button is cycled quickly or slowly by the rider. I have nothing showing the later wetheads had this option but wethead riders should probably try it just to see if it was put into a later BMW firmware update. 

 

"If (turn signal) button is pressed to the right or left, the turn indicators are automatically switched off under the following circumstances:

 

Speed below 30 km/h: after 50 meter distance covered.    Speed between 30 km/h and 100 km/h: after a speed-dependent distance is covered, or in case of acceleration.

 

Speed over 100 km/h: after flashing five times. If the (turn signal) button is pressed to the right or left slightly longer, the turn indicators only switch off automatically once the speed-dependent distance covered is reached".

 

So at freeway speeds a quick button push gives you a 5 flash lane change  & a longer button push gives you a real speed dependent turn signal time-out. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Paul De]

That’s a nice distinction to know between models and maybe extends back to later Wethead vintages. I checked my PDF copy of the OM for my ‘15 vintage 1200 Wethead and they make no comment about alternate algorithms depending on the length of time the button is pushed.  I would surmise enough riders griped about the functionality of their auto cancel functionality.  Haha, or some BMW engineer took a Hawg or a 35 year old PC800 for a ride and realized their design left a lot to be desired.

 

An interesting feature I didn’t know or remember about the earlier Wetheads is if you turn off the motor and hold the turn indicator button to the left and hold it there the parking lights come on. Parking lights are canceled on the next on/off ignition cycle.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Paul De said:

That’s a nice distinction to know between models and maybe extends back to later Wethead vintages. I checked my PDF copy of the OM for my ‘15 vintage 1200 Wethead and they make no comment about alternate algorithms depending on the length of time the button is pushed.  I would surmise enough riders griped about the functionality of their auto cancel functionality.  Haha, or some BMW engineer took a Hawg or a 35 year old PC800 for a ride and realized their design left a lot to be desired.

 

An interesting feature I didn’t know or remember about the earlier Wetheads is if you turn off the motor and hold the turn indicator button to the left and hold it there the parking lights come on. Parking lights are canceled on the next on/off ignition cycle.

Morning Paul

 

Those rider's manuals are written & verified pretty early (usually even before the production run starts) so things like the T/S function could get updated in a mid or late firmware update & not make the riders manual. I believe the wethead rider's manual refers to a time out or time & distance thing but doesn't really define that so it's possible BMW didn't have the T/S fully sorted at manual printing time.  

 

 I have ridden a number of wethead motorcycles, but as mentioned above, I always do a manual cancel after a turn or lane change so I probably wouldn't ever notice if the auto cancel is even working let alone working differently .

 

Those old Harley's are not without T/S issues (at least some that I have ridden) as  I ALWAYS manually cancel after a turn or lane change so if the Harley has already canceled I often reset the turn-signal to on by re-canceling & don't catch it if I'm not looking at the dash. On my last Harley beater bike I cut the auto cancel wire so it was only a manual cancel. 

[JCtx]

Yeah, Harleys with dual switches are push to activate, and push to cancel... so if it was already canceled, you activate it again. I much prefer the European/Japanese way, BUT a long-press should activate them fully manually, for the best of both worlds. Ha ha. The good news is that push to cancel is always to cancel, whether it's active or not, so no harm in pushing the button twice, or when no turn-signal is active.

[Hosstage]

I've found the Harley signals to be pretty intuitive about self cancelling. The only real problem I see is that they may turn off prematurely if activated too early, but they do have quite a bit of distance and time built in when going straight or slowing in a long turn lane. Once the corner is made, they turn off quickly.

Occasionally, if they are activated late when approaching a turn, they may stay activated for a time after turning, but even then turn off in a short amount of time.

The intuitive self cancelling feature on my old bike has failed, so I have to manually turn them off after turning, but they will eventually turn off on their own if I forget.

[9Mary7]

3 hours ago, Hosstage said:

I've found the Harley signals to be pretty intuitive about self cancelling. The only real problem I see is that they may turn off prematurely if activated too early, but they do have quite a bit of distance and time built in when going straight or slowing in a long turn lane. Once the corner is made, they turn off quickly.

Occasionally, if they are activated late when approaching a turn, they may stay activated for a time after turning, but even then turn off in a short amount of time.

The intuitive self cancelling feature on my old bike has failed, so I have to manually turn them off after turning, but they will eventually turn off on their own if I forget.

Same thing with my 35 Y/O Honda.