A Poll on the Effectiveness of ATGATT

[philbytx]

Blimey ! - Haven't seen one of those in years!!

Folks, that's a genuine "PissPot" helmet

[flyboy]

Unrally 2 Eurika Springs Ark

crash severity 5

body damage 1

gear 1

Made a believer out of me. Highway patrolman said any crash with this much damage the rider was dead! Yeah Aerostitch and Shoei.

[GirlGoesCrazy4Twisties]

Re: Killer & his 13 crashes

 

PLEASE DO NOT TRY SKYDIVING!!!

 

[Bob Palin]

Re: Killer & his 13 crashes

 

PLEASE DO NOT TRY SKYDIVING!!!

 

Fortunately I'm not a teenager any more! (Only took 20 years to get past that period of life )

[Endobob]

Well after almost 40 years of riding I have a short list of mishaps similar to "Killer's" but always able to ride the bike home and heal quickly. However, 2 years ago while at a track day my tires had not warmed up after lunch and I low sided off the track into a retaining wall.

 

Severity of Crash: 5 - bike totalled

 

Severity of Injury: 5 - collapsed lung, 8 ribs, 3 pelvis breaks, leg now has 15" rod, unconcious for about 30 minutes

 

Level of Protective Gear: 1 - Arai full face, full leathers, gloves, boots, etc.

[KyleD]

Severity of crash: 3 (60 mph low side)

Severity of injuries: 3 (broken ribs, cracked wrist - could have been 0 if I had not tried to stand up while still sliding)

Gear: 1 (Full sport level leathers, etc.)

[artlasch]

5-My bride high-sided at about 50 mph three years ago.

5-Injuries were severe, 6 days in hospital, multiple non-displaced facial fractures, torn rotator cuff, broken thumb, bruised ribs and hips, permanent partial vision loss one eye.

2-Good boots, gloves, Vanson perforated jacket and flip-up helmet which came off as it was either not buckled or was adjusted too loosely. She took initial impact right on her face though and I was right behind her watching. I will always think the helmet saved her life and would have prevented most serious of her injuries if buckled. Latch mechanism held just fine.

[bluedawg]

Severity of Crash:

Impact resulting ib bike being totaled. time in hospital, weeks to heal completely. 3 - Impact resulting in significant bike damage, and/or a high-speed "low side" lost line on fast corner 75mph getoff.

 

1 - Low-speed "low side", and/or minimal impact

 

Severity of Injury:

5 - Life threatening, possible permanent disability

3 - Time in hospital, weeks to heal completely

1 - Bruised, otherwise walked away

 

Level of Protective Gear:

5 - T-shirt and flip flops

3 - DOT Helmet, MC jacket

1 - High level of quality gear - DOT Helmet, armored jacket and pants, boots, gloves, etc.

Original Schuberth Conceptheld upwee althou I ate a piece of the clear faceplate. The Vanson Ventilator jacket really saved me. It's mesh but has good armor in the right places and hel togher well.

[Id's_OK]

#1: (not me)

crash: 4; totalled, yes, but he hit a brick wall, not another vehicle!

injuries: 1

gear: 2

 

I (stupidly) thought I'd give my brother-in-law a mini-MSF course on my R1100R in an abandoned Wal-Mart parking lot. He ended up running INTO Wal-Mart! However, if it weren't for suiting him in 'All the Gear' for his spin on the pillion, it would have been much worse. Without the full-face Shoei, he wouldn't have a face (I have pics!). Likewise, the Firstgear armored jacket & pants saved him from serious shoulder and limb damage.

 

#2: (me, stupid again, ran ride into and over a guardrail)

crash 3

injuries 2 (OK, but for four in. laceration where there was no armour, at the ribs...no stitches, so maybe a 1)

gear 2 (everything but riding pants)

[Bob Palin]

Looks like we have some data - where's the analysis?

[bobiverson]

Looks like we have some data - where's the analysis?

 

Hmmm... I'm not sure what value this will have coming from this board. I mean, let's face it -- most of us here are intelligent people who practice ATGATT. I'm guessing (and, mind you, this is just a WILD hunch) that the data will prove that, if you wear the gear, your likelihood of injury is less that if you don't wear the gear.

 

It's kinda like studying the effectiveness of beers on an HD forum.

 

1 -- Only had time for a six pack on the way home, didn't scratch my beanie helmet.

 

3 -- Six pack and 8 shots while playing darts. Only mild brain damage due to effectiveness of bandana.

 

5 -- Twelve pack, bottle of Jack, threw some empty bottles at some BMW riders, dropped bike while attempting to mount in parking lot, got home just fine and beat the girlfriend.

 

You kinda know the end result.

[Bob Palin]

Looks like we have some data - where's the analysis?

Hmmm... I'm not sure what value this will have coming from this board. I mean, let's face it -- most of us here are intelligent people who practice ATGATT.

Actually I entered the first 50 sets of numbers into excel and the averages were: severity 2.45, injury 1.37, gear 2.13 so we are not 100% ATGATT. The OP presumably had some idea of what analysis he was going to do.

[Aluminum_Butt]

The OP presumably had some idea of what analysis he was going to do.

 

Yep, but thus far I'm having difficulty getting any correlation. I'm concerned at this point that there may be only a fraction of the data points needed to get something that is significant (in the statistical definition of the word).

 

Just some simple graphs of the data points imply no significant correlation between full gear and little gear. I've been thinking through ways to look at the data (e.g. only consider severity of 3+), but that's not really helping. Mind you, I don't want to create a correlation where there isn't one, but I do want to drive out any that aren't immediately obvious.

[Bob Palin]

Yep, but thus far I'm having difficulty getting any correlation.

That's what I expected the outcome to be, not much correlation between ATGATT and severity of injury.

[Mike]

Yep, but thus far I'm having difficulty getting any correlation.

That's what I expected the outcome to be, not much correlation between ATGATT and severity of injury.

 

Not that any of this is especially scientific, but I'd expect minimal correlation. My guess is that ATGATT types may tend to push the limits a bit more, thereby offsetting the benefits of ATG with more severe crashes.

[MattS]

My guess is that ATGATT types may tend to push the limits a bit more, thereby offsetting the benefits of ATG with more severe crashes.

Mine too. A cursory glance at my record reveals...

 

 

...that the wearing of ATGATT increases the odds of a career-ender (for the bike, at least) from 0% to 100%.

 

Does BMW make flip-flops? I need me a pair!

[RodanAZ]

#1 - 1987 v. non-yielding left turner

Crash - 5

Injury - 2 (severely sprained ankle - tennis shoes)

Gear - 3

 

#2 - 1988 Angeles Crest Hwy target fixation lowside

 

Crash - 3

Injury - 1

Gear - 2 (full leathers, no armor, it was 1988 after all...this crash probably would have killed me if not for the helmet, as I slid head first into the roadside rocks)

 

#3 2000 - ~85 mph lowside after tankslapper on dragstrip

 

Crash - 3

Injury - 2 (badly bruised foot)

Gear - 1

 

#4-6 Racetrack lowsides, 40-60mph corners

 

Crash - 2,2,2

Injury - 0,0,0

Gear - 1,1,1

[rickmoen]

At the risk of sounding dumb (hasn't bothered me in the past), what does ATGATT stand for?

[Mike]

At the risk of sounding dumb (hasn't bothered me in the past), what does ATGATT stand for?

 

All The Gear All The Time.

[Slumgullion]

311

[Dances_With_Wiener_Dogs]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Dennis Murphy's crash at the UN. Bike is totaled for frame damage, injuries are high (the man punched a fence post with his forearm and broke his elbow, forearm, wrist and hand) and he was flown from Grand Junction to Chicago for the surgery for pins and plates, though it could have been done in GJ. Level of gear was ATGATT, and I'm not sure how he could have sustained less injuries with conventional riding gear. The jacket could have been worn again, but they cut it off of him. Pants and boots were fine. Helmet was probably scratched up some from the barbed wire he slid under.

 

All in all, I think he came out of it well, but he might disagree that point.

[GaryIF]

Severity of crash: 1

Severity of injury: 0.5

Level of gear: 1

[Haynes]

For me as rider:

Severity of Crash: 5 - Impact resulting in bike being totalled.

Severity of Injury: 3 - Time in hospital, weeks to heal completely.

Level of Protective Gear: 2 - High level of quality gear - DOT Helmet, armored jacket, Draggin Jeans, boots, gloves.

 

For wife as passenger:

Severity of Crash: 5 - Impact resulting in bike being totalled.

Severity of Injury: 1 - Bruised, otherwise walked away.

Level of Protective Gear: 2 - High level of quality gear - DOT Helmet, armored jacket, Draggin Jeans, boots, gloves.

[BeniciaRT_GT]

5-1-.5

Totaled Harley

 

3-1-1

1990 Ducati off embankment/small cliff.

[Bob Palin]

5-1-.5

0.5? That's a super ATGATT? Actually having seen you dress that might be right...

[BeniciaRT_GT]

5-1-.5

0.5? That's a super ATGATT? Actually having seen you dress that might be right...

 

Yes, I'm thinking of getting a suit of mail to wear over it, as it should vent air a little, but give that little bit of extra something for bone protection. You never know where you will need it...even when you are just sitting half on-half off a bike that isn't yours

 

Right Bob???

[flyingreg]

5-1-.5

0.5? That's a super ATGATT? Actually having seen you dress that might be right...

 

Yes, I'm thinking of getting a suit of mail to wear over it, as it should vent air a little, but give that little bit of extra something for bone protection. You never know where you will need it...even when you are just sitting half on-half off a bike that isn't yours

 

Right Bob??? Richard, you need to look at THIS GEAR . Look specifically at the ULTRA II AIR MESH KEVLAR JACKET and the AIR MESH KEVLAR PANT. Both are made in the USA, come with a seven (7) year warranty and are the only synthetic approved for professional racing. Actually, from what I have seen, this stuff outperforms leather in every category.

 

From there website: " Cycleport's Kevlar suits are the only synthetic apparel approved by the F.I.M., the A.M.A., the W.E.R.A. and many other racing organizations. "

[SMac]

Severity of Crash: 5 - Ye 'ol 55MPH broadside into a mid 70's Caprice. Totalled two Electraglides.

Severity of Injury: 1 - Despite the pain, 2 drivers and 2 pillions basically walked away. Catapulted over the offending car.

Protective Gear: 4 - Boots and jeans, half helmets, leather vests over T-shirts, fingerless gloves... you know, the required uniform. (hey, it was YEARS before the current craze, cut me some slack)

Level of Luck: 100

[Lion_lady]

Crashed in July '04.

 

Severity: 3. Significant bike damage (lowside and slide).

Personal Injury: 2. fracture to wrist (fluke, hooked thumb in handguard)

Level of ATGATT: 1. Full BMW gear, Arai helmet, Held gloves, CruiserWorks boots.

[nldaniel]

well..

 

i tested my gear three times:

 

4 4 4

5 3 2 (*)

3 1 2

 

(*) not really a bike accident, as I was dismounted at he time, provinding assistance after a MVA. the crashed vehicle was angled on two lanes of a four lane highway.

I opened the door and was looking for the hazard switch when I heard a screaching sound and a car slammed into the stationary vehicle. I was ejected out op the door and made a nice slide over the asphalt. suffered injuries to my chin as glass from the window was flung into it. helmet was a flip up which did protect the side of my head as i slide along..

 

in hospital they said it must have been quite a crash as my pants had a hole in them. i replied that it wasn't that bad, that is was just the rainproof platic trousers i wore over the leathers. No, the nurse replied. the leather is also worn through, i'm looking at your knee...

 

Daniel

[KMG_365]

Can I throw in crashes I've been to? I could list about a dozen where the crotch rocket was swept up into a pile, the rider was killed and the gear was full face helmet, Joe Rocket boots, maybe gloves, usually jeans and light (often mesh, usually no armor) jacket.

 

I could list another few crashes where the HD's damage was about a 1-3, but the beanie helmeted rider died from the head trauma (at least) and the little plastic yarmulke, was the best protection of all the gear they wore.

 

And then I could list the hundred or so crashes where the bikes suffered a 1-5, the rider suffered a 1-5 and the gear worn was a 1-5 . . . if you think that'll help.

 

I've never had the pleasure of cutting off really good riding gear here at work (City of Coronado). We don't have any "fun" twisty mountain roads (other than the "S" turns in the south end of town) and our main "external" dangers are the rubber-necking tourists and geriatric cagers who should've lost their license a few years ago.

 

Of the five crashed riders I've been with from this group all were ATGATT (were they all Aerostitches? ), the worst was a broken scapula and three broken ribs, next was a broken toe and only one bike was not totalled--and that bike's rider had the worst injuries I mentioned.

 

My four crashes:

 

#1: Low speed lowside on over inflated knobby tires hitting sand in a turn on city street (I was 15).

Bike: 1

Rider: 1

Gear: 4

 

#2: Hit curb divider in decreasing radius right-hander @~30-40mph (I was 18--before I knew what counter-steering was!)

Bike: 5 I realized I couldn't pull it down, so I righted the bike and tried to jump the divider . . . well it sounded like a good idea at the time . . . .

Rider: 2 I flew about 30 feet, hit first with both hands (very minor road rash on palms--gloves stowed safely in jacket pockets), tucked and rolled off the road and into the ditch. My head never hit the ground AFAIR, but I passed out twice trying to pick the 600# bike back up with the broken clavicle or two that Leslie just found almost 20 years later. (I never went to the hospital . . . . )

Gear: 4 My full face helmet was strapped securely to the side of the bike and it wound up under it when the bike finally stopped tumbling. It was impressive to show my mom who expressed her gratitude that "I was smart enough to have been wearing it" (pre-California Helmet Law). Does it count if you at least have it WITH you when you crash?

 

 

#3: Hit huge oil slick on curving uphill on city street @~30-40mph (from cage that blew it's oil pan, I was 21)

Bike: 1

Rider: 1 (I was a bit late for my finals though, and I looked a mess covered in black oil! )

Gear: 3

 

#4: Rear ended and caught rear crash bars on bumper of car which suddenly failed to complete a left turn from in front of me when she looked in her mirror and saw a Kawi KZ1000-P behind her. (I was 37)

 

Bike: 1

Rider: 1

Gear: 1

Mac iBook in backpack which broke my fall: 1!!!

 

Good luck making sense of this and/or putting this data in a usable form!

[LDHack]

One crash in 35 years of riding, when I was in my 20's.

 

3 Parking lot intersection - bent Earles fork, bent crash bar + scratches

1 Small scratch to hand after bike did a 180 and I fell off.

3 Open face 1/2 helmet, leather jacket, no gloves, jeans, engineer boots.

 

I was lucky. Fractions of a second later, I would have been T-boned direct into my leg instead of into the front fork.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Raises some interesting thoughts for me.

 

Will a helmet keep you from dying? Well, maybe if you bang your melon on the pavement but not if you take blunt force trauma to the chest from hitting a fence post at 60.

 

Will body armour and abrasion resistant clothing protect you in a high speed crash? Sure, your skin may be better off and you might even keep from breaking a shoulder but, hit that fence post at 60 and you are still dead.

 

Good boots will certainly keep your toe count where it belongs and may well help with damage to ankles and the like.

 

Gloves will protect your hands and really good racing style gloves will do a better job than the calf skin ropers you normally wear. You might still break fingers and wrists though, but at least you'll have some skin left to keep the bones in.

 

Am I safer on the highway in my Airflow suit, Shoei RF-1000, Held Gloves and Oxtar boots? Sure, but, only so long as I remain vertical. Once I fall, I am in the hands of fate. Be a pity to survive the getoff and get run over by the SUV driver who was tailgating me. Luck plays a huge part in this. In fact, I think I'll go kill a rabbit to add to my gear. Of course, the Kharma might get me then.