Bike sitting. Started but sudden no spark r1100rt

[mike424]

Experienced cycle owner, first bmw. 2000 r1150rt 30k miles sat for 3 years. Started at guys house, started at home. Took bodywoork and tank off for a good cleaning and maintenance. Put tank back on and no spark. Ive read alot about the hall sensor. I saw the connector to fuel tank looked not great. Will those go out with no warning?  And now my fuel pump runs constant with ignition on. Do i need to bleed air from lines?  

[PatML]

Hi Mike,

 

Welcome, and congratulations on a great choice of bike. You might end up with a bit of wrenching from time to time but look at it as bonding with your new love.

 

When you say "no spark" did you actually check for a spark, or does it just not start, which could be a fuelling issue. That seems more likely as you have just had the tank off.

 

I am by no means an expert but from my limited experience I would suggest that before worrying about the hall-effect sensor that was working OK so far, you should check:

 

1. that you have properly reconnected both fuel lines to/from the tank. They have inline ball valves that will prevent leakage when disconnected (a Good Thing) but will also prevent fuel flow when nearly, but not fully, reconnected (a Bad Thing). Careful when forcing these back together as they can break, giving you the opportunity to buy some sturdy aftermarket ones.

 

2. that you have reconnected the electric connector to the fuel tank properly. There might be corroded connectors there so treat yourself to a can of switch/contact cleaner and spray some in before plugging it in (more detailed instructions on the side of the can).Also treat yourself to a tube of dielectric grease (ie that does not conduct electricity) and squeeze a bit in there first to protect the connectors.

 

Hopefully it will be one of those, otherwise come back with an update.

 

Cheers,

Pat

 

[mike424]

Yes, actually checked spark. No spark, even with lead to neg battery terminal 

[Redfoxx]

30 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Yes, actually checked spark. No spark, even with lead to neg battery terminal 

Don't worry Dirt Rider will be a long with a lot more questions and he will likely have lots of good information to follow. 

[PatML]

2 hours ago, mike424 said:

Yes, actually checked spark. No spark, even with lead to neg battery terminal 

I believe that the spark routing is that it comes from the coil, through the first spark plug, through the engine, back out of the other spark plug, and back into the coil. So if you had the other plug out when you tested one, you would not get a spark.

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, mike424 said:

Experienced cycle owner, first bmw. 2000 r1150rt 30k miles sat for 3 years. Started at guys house, started at home. Took bodywoork and tank off for a good cleaning and maintenance. Put tank back on and no spark. Ive read alot about the hall sensor. I saw the connector to fuel tank looked not great. Will those go out with no warning?  And now my fuel pump runs constant with ignition on. Do i need to bleed air from lines?  

Afternoon Mike

 

Is the side stand UP?  If an 1100 then it needs to be up to get a spark. 

 

Do you really have a 2000 1150RT? If an 1150 then probably not a 2000, if an actual 2000 then probably an 1100.

 

It makes a difference as the fueling control is slightly different between the 1100 Ma 2.2 & the 1150 Ma 2.4. 

 

The fuel pump running all the time is a puzzler as that shouldn't happen. A faulty HES could cause that so if an 1100 Ma 2.2 then you might have disturbed the HES pigtail enough to now have it cross-talking. 

 

If an 1150 2.4 system then the HES being the issue is less likely, can happen but not as likely as on the 1100 Ma 2.2. 

 

Make sure that your spark plug wires are FULLY plugged into your coil (easy to dislodge those when removing the fuel tank).

 

If still no spark then try unplugging the HES connector then see if the fuel pump only runs for about 2-3 seconds at key ON, then stops running. Then doesn't run again until next key on.

 

Lets start with EXACTLY what are you working on? Is the transmission a 5 speed or a 6speeed?

 

If an 1150 then make sure it isn't the brake servos running as it sounds like the fuel pump. 

 

 

 

 

[mike424]

Yup...sorry, 1100

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Yup...sorry, 1100

Afternoon Mike 

 

Then start with checking that the side stand is up.

 

If that is OK then________

 

Then try the HES disconnect to see if fuel pump defaults to 2-3 seconds of run at key ON then stops running. 

 

Did you wash the motorcycle with the fuel tank removed? If so then high possibly it's the HES. 

 

 

[mike424]

Yeah, i took the fuel tank off is the hess the connector near the right hand side throttle body

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Yeah, i took the fuel tank off is the hess the connector near the right hand side throttle body

Evening Mike 

 

No,

 

If it hasn't been moved then it runs up under the alternator. If still somewhat stock it will probably have a rubber boot partially covering the connector.

[Michaelr11]

9 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Yeah, i took the fuel tank off is the hess the connector near the right hand side throttle body

 

The connector in your photo is the under-tank electrical connector for the fuel pump and gas gauge.  It looks beat up.

[mike424]

Update, i think the pump was running because not enough fuel in to pressurize the system.  Really hard to tell how much fuel in this very odd shaped plastic fuel tank lol, but fuel was just sputtering out lightly. Im gonna go get a couple gallons of fuel and see if that doesnt solve the fuel pump issue. She also wasnt squirting fuel out of the injector when i tried that to see if they were fireing off. Found the connector for hall, but its mute since....well..."it aint got no gas in it." 

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Update, i think the pump was running because not enough fuel in to pressurize the system.  Really hard to tell how much fuel in this very odd shaped plastic fuel tank lol, but fuel was just sputtering out lightly. Im gonna go get a couple gallons of fuel and see if that doesnt solve the fuel pump issue. She also wasnt squirting fuel out of the injector when i tried that to see if they were fireing off. Found the connector for hall, but its mute since....well..."it aint got no gas in it." 

Evening Mike

 

Your motorcycle doesn't have a fuel system pressure sensor so it has no idea on how much pressure the pump makes. The 2-3 second run time is based on the Motronic internal programming. Then the pump turns on again when it receives a cranking or running signal from the HES.  

 

Basically if it gets a run signal  then the pump will run even with no fuel in the tank, so adding fuel isn't your pump continuous run problem. 

 

No fuel in the tank  can cause a no-start issue.  

[mike424]

Thanks for that info dirtrider. I still got no sparky tho. Im assuming theres a 5 million dollar bmw tester for the HES. Im gonna say its probably the HES just looking here at the harness

[mike424]

One more question...its gonna just be wires right?  Whats to keep me from rewireing the damn thing. Do they fry when they get like this?

[dirtrider]

23 minutes ago, mike424 said:

One more question...its gonna just be wires right?  Whats to keep me from rewireing the damn thing. Do they fry when they get like this?

Evening Mike

 

Yep, usually just the wire insulation degrading.

 

BUT, rewiring is a challenge as the wire is special (expensive) high temperature & new terminals are difficult to find. But it can be done at home if resourceful. 

 

Give GS addict an E-Mail          arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca       he does GREAT WORK in rewiring them at a decent price for the quality that he does.  

[dirtrider]

14 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Thanks for that info dirtrider. I still got no sparky tho. Im assuming theres a 5 million dollar bmw tester for the HES. Im gonna say its probably the HES just looking here at the harness

Evening Mike

 

Even if that isn't your current problem it sure will be next time you ride in the rain. That puppy needs to be rewired. 

 

Did the fuel pump quit running when you disconnected it?  If so then that just tested it as bad. 

[mike424]

Any other reason the fuel pump would stay running?  I unplugged and it still keeps running. Im going to replace the HES and then go from there. 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, mike424 said:

Any other reason the fuel pump would stay running?  I unplugged and it still keeps running. Im going to replace the HES and then go from there. 

Morning Mike

 

That is a good question. A stuck fuel pump relay contact could cause it to continually run.

 

A problem inside the Motronic (fueling computer) could keep the pump running.

 

Or someone could have messed with the motorcycle wiring bypassing the Motronic fuel pump control. 

 

Try removing the fuel pump relay to see if the pump stops running. 

 

Also, try removing fuse #5 for about 10 minutes then reinstall & see if the pump stops after 2-3 seconds at key ON. Once in a while an incorrect HES signal can cause a Motronic lock-out.

 

Also see if the pump quits running when you remove fuse #5, this might tell us something or give us a direction to look in. 

 

If you can post a picture of the inside of your fuse box. 

 

If the pump quits running when you remove the fuel pump relay then try swapping the horn relay with the fuel pump relay as a quick test. 

 

Horn relay=  3rd relay from the left in front row

Fuel pump relay=  4th relay from left in front row

Motronic relay= 5th relay from left in front row

 

 

 

 

[mike424]

I ordered new hes. Is it really as simple as putting bike at tdc and rotating till fuel pump kicks on?  I ordered the tdc location pin. 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, mike424 said:

I ordered new hes. Is it really as simple as putting bike at tdc and rotating till fuel pump kicks on?  I ordered the tdc location pin. 

Morning Mike

 

That method will get you close. I never use a locating pin as there is usually some slop in the holes & pin. I just turn the crankshaft until the TDC mark lines up with the timing hole. 

 

Mark the front cover where the HES is NOW located. That will get you close when you reinstall the new one & a good double check that you are close & not way off.  

[Jim Moore]

23 hours ago, mike424 said:

I ordered new hes. Is it really as simple as putting bike at tdc and rotating till fuel pump kicks on?  I ordered the tdc location pin. 

The cup has a tendency to move when you install the crank pulley. It's a good idea to glue it to the pulley before you install the pulley.

[dmsantam]

The fuel pump method for lining up the HES works. I built a timing box with info from the attached pdf I found online. 

oilhead_timing_box-1.pdf

[mike424]

Update...thanks everyone she purrs like a kitten. Dirtrider, you tha man!!!  I see how much you post on this forum. So, now im changing oil....not to start an oil debate, but i can use my favorite auto oil in this bike right?  Since it has dry clutch And trans and rear lube seperate. 

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, mike424 said:

Update...thanks everyone she purrs like a kitten. Dirtrider, you tha man!!!  I see how much you post on this forum. So, now im changing oil....not to start an oil debate, but i can use my favorite auto oil in this bike right?  Since it has dry clutch And trans and rear lube seperate. 

Afternoon mike424

 

Can you use car oil? Sure but you need to define the car oil you intend to use. A large number of modern car oils are not quite right for the oil cooled BMW boxer as the oil cooled boxer has larger clearances. 

 

SHOULD you use car oil, probably not as most new car oil is designed for a different type engine.

 

You probably should use a 20w50 or 15w50 or a 15w40 oil with a good ant-wear  additive package.

 

  

[mike424]

Yeah, i live in south texas and its hot. I was gonna use a 20/50 semisynthetic in it. This motor seems like a big ole tractor lol. I wont be doing any short trips. Its 45 miles one way to work. Did i mention its hot down here?  

[Jim Moore]

Mobil -1 15-50 and an M1-102 filter have been working for me on these bikes for over 350,000 combined miles. 

 

Pro tip: when you check the oil, get it hot by riding, then park on the sidestand for a few minutes, then put it on the centerstand and check the oil. If you go right to the centerstand you're likely to get a low reading.

[dmsantam]

13 hours ago, Jim Moore said:

Pro tip: when you check the oil, get it hot by riding, then park on the sidestand for a few minutes, then put it on the centerstand and check the oil. If you go right to the centerstand you're likely to get a low reading.

I respectfully disagree with this approach. I go by the owners manual, which says to get the oil hot and then put it on the centerstand, with no mention of going to the sidestand first. Going to the sidestand first will drain oil from the oil cooler, and result in a higher reading (as Jim mentioned). In my opinion, if you're near the bottom of the oil sightglass with the sidestand method, you're too low.

 

On my 2005 hexhead GS (same oil checking method according to manual, and same claims about sidestand on forums), my oil level on a trip in snowy mountains (Australia) got to the bottom quarter of the sightglass when measured with the sidestand method - this is the method I used to use as well, due to reading on forums. On one start on the sidestand in neutral, the engine clacked loudly at idle  and did not let up until i straightened the bike up quickly and leaned it towards the right side. This was in my opinion due to the right side camchain tensioner not being able to be filled with oil. I topped it up, and never used that method again, and never had another issue. YMMV. 

 

[Jim Moore]

11 hours ago, dmsantam said:

I respectfully disagree with this approach. I go by the owners manual, which says to get the oil hot and then put it on the centerstand, with no mention of going to the sidestand first. Going to the sidestand first will drain oil from the oil cooler, and result in a higher reading (as Jim mentioned). In my opinion, if you're near the bottom of the oil sightglass with the sidestand method, you're too low.

 

The problem is that on the centerstand sometimes it will drain out of the oil cooler, sometimes it won't. You will get inconsistent readings. the internet is rife with stories of people who thought they were low on oil and poured some in to bring it to the center of the sight glass, only to find themselves WAY over the top next time they checked. It happened to me.

 

That being said, I think DR agrees with you. The rest of the internet agrees with me. Normally I'd go with DR over the rest of the internet, but my personal experience tells me otherwise.

[46nto]

1 hour ago, Jim Moore said:

The problem is that on the centerstand sometimes it will drain out of the oil cooler, sometimes it won't. You will get inconsistent readings. the internet is rife with stories of people who thought they were low on oil and poured some in to bring it to the center of the sight glass, only to find themselves WAY over the top next time they checked. It happened to me.

 

That being said, I think DR agrees with you. The rest of the internet agrees with me. Normally I'd go with DR over the rest of the internet, but my personal experience tells me otherwise.

I’ve overfilled in the same manner more than once so for consistency’s sake, I now let it rest on the side stand for a bit before putting it up on the center stand. Haven’t mistakenly overfilled since adopting this approach. It may not be the right way but it’s worked better for me. 

[dirtrider]

Morning  dmsantam, Jim

 

Both methods will work, it is just a common sense thing as to how the oil level is read vs the amount of oil drain back. 

 

The main player here is "Common Sense". The oil MUST be hot enough to flow back into the crankcase easily & the engine/oil must be hot enough for the oil thermostat to be open & the engine case must be hot enough to expand. If the oil thermostat is not open (& stay open through the drain-back)then neither way will work correctly. 

 

I am a believer in the BMW riders manual method as that is the way BMW set up the correct oil level vs sight glass. 

 

The oil level in the engine case is based on oil cooler drain back so either on the side stand first or just the center stand will give oil cooler drain back. The side stand first will just give a little more oil cooler drain back than the center stand only. Not a lot so if you are the "see-oil-in-the-sight-glass OK to ride"  type rider then either way is OK. 

 

If you are the anal type that fiddles for 20 minutes getting your oil level to within .5 ounce then do not use the side stand method as it is wrong. 

 

The biggest mistake most riders make is not the side stand first or only center stand, it is not having the oil  AND engine case) hot enough, & not allowing enough time for oil drain back. 

 

The next biggest mistake is in not allowing enough time between pouring new (cold thick) oil in then reading sight glass. Most over-fills are due to not allowing enough time for the newly poured in oil to get from the valve cover into the crankcase & raise the oil level reading. BMW addressed this a little on the newer boxer bikes by putting the oil fill on the opposite side of the sight glass as the oil has more time to get to the crankcase as it takes longer to move around the motorcycle to read it. 

 

The other thing that MUST be kept in mind is that the BMW boxer crankcase is not symmetrical. Once you get the oil level close to the bottom of the sight glass the oil space in the crankcase gets smaller so less oil added raises the oil level more & quicker.

 

BMW did a study (long ago) on (I believe) the 1100 boxer on how much the engine case temperature (JUST the case temperature alone)  effected the engine oil level & it was way more than most of us would have guessed it would. 

 

Per BMW ___

"At an ambient temperature/engine temperature of minus 10°C (14°F), the oil level is about 10 mm lower than at operating temperature. This is due to the different coefficients of thermal expansion of engine oil and materials of the engine as well as the gas solubility of oil, which in turn is influenced by other factors." 

 

 

 

Oil drain back difference between side stand & just center stand (picture below) but not for the boxer bikes with twin coolers or side mounted oil coolers.

 

Mostly bottom corner of right oil cooler tank & just a very little in the 2 lower side flow cross tubes. Plus just a little more from the R/H valve cover.  

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

15 hours ago, dmsantam said:

On my 2005 hexhead GS (same oil checking method according to manual, and same claims about sidestand on forums), my oil level on a trip in snowy mountains (Australia) got to the bottom quarter of the sightglass when measured with the sidestand method - this is the method I used to use as well, due to reading on forums. On one start on the sidestand in neutral, the engine clacked loudly at idle  and did not let up until i straightened the bike up quickly and leaned it towards the right side. This was in my opinion due to the right side camchain tensioner not being able to be filled with oil. I topped it up, and never used that method again, and never had another issue. 

 

Morning  dmsantam

 

You had something else going on with the engine starting issue. 

 

The right hand chain tensioner is mounted differently than on the L/H side so it stays full of oil even after engine shut down. Plus it is WAY above the crankcase oil level even with a very full crankcase.  

 

But even if the R/H tensioner bleeds down it is on the SLACK side of the cam chain so once the engine starts spinning the drive side of the cam chain goes somewhat tight. It is just the slack side or non drive side that isn't supported. 

 

A limp R/H tensioner isn't a good thing as it can allow the spinning chain to break the end of the chain guide & does make a lot of noise but they still run start & run OK. 

 

But some will say, "what about the oil level being low effecting the oil pumps intake" sure will but it would be obvious as the oil light would be on & the oil level would have to be at least 2 quarts low & possibly even 3 quarts low to be below either pumps intake at startup (even on side stand).  The pump intake screens are really low as BMW didn't want a slightly low oil level to effect the engine oiling in a long full lean (way/way farther over than on the side stand) in either direction.  Even the empty oil cooler is not a factor as the oil thermostat is closed on cold engine start up.

 

Unless a person has had a BMW boxer oilhead/camhead/hexhead apart they usually have no idea on how far it is between the oil sight glass & the bottom of the oil pump intakes. 

 

 

[dmsantam]

7 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  dmsantam

 

You had something else going on with the engine starting issue. 

 

The right hand chain tensioner is mounted differently than on the L/H side so it stays full of oil even after engine shut down. Plus it is WAY above the crankcase oil level even with a very full crankcase.  

 

But even if the R/H tensioner bleeds down it is on the SLACK side of the cam chain so once the engine starts spinning the drive side of the cam chain goes somewhat tight. It is just the slack side or non drive side that isn't supported. 

 

A limp R/H tensioner isn't a good thing as it can allow the spinning chain to break the end of the chain guide & does make a lot of noise but they still run start & run OK. 

 

But some will say, "what about the oil level being low effecting the oil pumps intake" sure will but it would be obvious as the oil light would be on & the oil level would have to be at least 2 quarts low & possibly even 3 quarts low to be below either pumps intake at startup (even on side stand).  The pump intake screens are really low as BMW didn't want a slightly low oil level to effect the engine oiling in a long full lean (way/way farther over than on the side stand) in either direction.  Even the empty oil cooler is not a factor as the oil thermostat is closed on cold engine start up.

 

Unless a person has had a BMW boxer oilhead/camhead/hexhead apart they usually have no idea on how far it is between the oil sight glass & the bottom of the oil pump intakes. 

 

 

Great info as usual DR. I believe my oil light was on when this happened. but it only took 500ml of oil top up. It was also a hot start, after a 10-15 minute stop with the bike on the side stand. 

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, dmsantam said:

Great info as usual DR. I believe my oil light was on when this happened. but it only took 500ml of oil top up. It was also a hot start, after a 10-15 minute stop with the bike on the side stand. 

Afternoon  dmsantam

 

That is only about 1/2 of a US quart so your oil level was no where near low enough to cause either the oil pressure light on or lack of oil to either of the oil pumps.