Cam chain tensioner and TDC Locking pin interest Europe?

[Tavigdel]

Hi, how is the need for these tools in Europe. I know i need it, and have ordered but not received. So i have started with a friend to make a new tensioner based on the original and with the use of the oem insert. We will also be making the TDC Tool. 

 

So if there is a interest , maybe we could make some more. 

[Hati]

I would definitely be interested in an OEM like tensioning tool with sleeve. Please. Must be identical though as I need it for a cam-head where nothing else fits in on the LHS.

[Tavigdel]

We are not using a sleeve. Have used the oem cam chain tensioner modified with adjustable screw. No need for the sleeve in this part, the 42 mm sleeve used other places is to zero it before taking tension. 

[Hati]

What if you need to use the tensioner without the sleeve? My '21 RT needs it WITH sleeve, the '13 1200R needs it WITHOUT. I have the Boxflyer version of the tensioner replica, made one based on his measurements and it works perfectly for bikes that use the sleeve. However it cannot be used on bikes that require the factory tensioner to be used on its own.

 

You said: 

 

On 2/23/2024 at 2:50 PM, Tavigdel said:

So i have started with a friend to make a new tensioner based on the original

 

This means in English that you want to make an EXACT copy of the original factory tool. Do you not?

[dmsantam]

note that Dan Cata is already making the TDC tool in Romania. 

 

https://www.spankraft.com/product/r1200gs-rt-rs-r-lcliquid-cooled-2013-onwards-series-engine-special-tools/

[RTmutter]

1 hour ago, Tavigdel said:

We are not using a sleeve. Have used the oem cam chain tensioner modified with adjustable screw. No need for the sleeve in this part, the 42 mm sleeve used other places is to zero it before taking tension. 

 

When using the new tensioner tool, is there a defined tension that the timing chain must be set to ? Is the required chain tension achieved by applying a specific torque to the adjustable screw (or some other method)? Trying to picture exactly how the tool is used to achieve the required result.

Also, when tensioning the timing chain, does the gear move enough that you can see some rotation? Wondering how much timing chain play a resting engine typically has. 

[JCtx]

I also wonder if the left and right tension should be the same. My 2020 1250 engine came with 2 identical tensioners (17mm heads), but turns out the left side needs a longer tensioner (makes more clattering noise, especially when hot), so BMW quietly made a longer one with a 19mm head, which I just fitted yesterday. I think it became standard in 2022 (or for sure 2023). But many bikes probably still have dual 17mm tensioners, so maybe the same length tool is fine for purposes of setting timing, right?

[Tavigdel]

10 hours ago, Hati said:

What if you need to use the tensioner without the sleeve? My '21 RT needs it WITH sleeve, the '13 1200R needs it WITHOUT. I have the Boxflyer version of the tensioner replica, made one based on his measurements and it works perfectly for bikes that use the sleeve. However it cannot be used on bikes that require the factory tensioner to be used on its own.

 

You said: 

 

 

This means in English that you want to make an EXACT copy of the original factory tool. Do you not?

Not the factory tool, but the factory cam chain tensioner..

[Hati]

1 hour ago, Tavigdel said:

Not the factory tool, but the factory cam chain tensioner..

 

Well call it "tensioner" not "tool" than. I am off your list than since I have the factory tensioner .

[JCtx]

Forgot to mention I was surprised how much tension even the shorter-than-needed left-side tensioner was under, when I removed it the other day. Was removing it manually for the last couple of turns, and the darn thing shot down the floor with surprising force... that I wasn't expecting. Ha ha. And getting the longer one to engage the threads, took a surprising amount of force too. The spring-loaded 'insert' is quite strong. And oil pressure probably adds a little bit of stroke on top of that, I'd guess. Finally, any reason why you need a different 'tensioner' when doing timing checks than the factory units? Just curious. Thank you.

[Hati]

30 minutes ago, JCtx said:

any reason why you need a different 'tensioner' when doing timing checks than the factory units? Just curious.

 

As per my signature, the two boxers I own are different. The RT has both of the tensioners on the underside of the cylinders (left AND right) so a tensioner replica that is designed to mimic the factory tensioner "wearing" the sleeve can be used got both sides. Boxflyer worked out the tension and I made a tool based on his finding, essentially the same tool he is selling as per the service tools he sells. However, the camhead boxer has the left side tensioner on the top of the cylinder, so you cannot use this replica tool for two reasons. 1. It does not fit, the tensioning bolt sticking out prevents that and 2. it has to be used without the sleeve that is not possible with the replica as it is designed to work like the factory tool WITH the sleeve fitted, so the length is wrong. 

 

That is why I was so specific as to what these guys want to make. Looks like they are producing the same thing as Boxflyer that is great for the watercooled boxers but cannot be used on the older models.

[RTmutter]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:21 PM, Hati said:

 

 Boxflyer worked out the tension and I made a tool based on his finding

What is the tension value that you are working to for your new tool? Are you specifying a specific torque value be applied to the tool to achieve a specific tension on the chain?

[Hati]

5 hours ago, RTmutter said:

What is the tension value that you are working to for your new tool?

 

I don't know. The tool is based on a very specific spring. I bought the exact make/model Boxflyer has, so my tool will behave exactly like his. Because all the parts are identical, I do not need to know the actual value.

 

5 hours ago, RTmutter said:

Are you specifying a specific torque value be applied to the tool to achieve a specific tension on the chain?

 

No, I need to use a specific number of turns on a specific bolt (M 8x1.0 from memory) to get the correct tension.

 

What you need to remember is that the tensioner in the bike works with oil pressure. When you do the adjustment, you will not have that oil pressure. The factory tool is set to produce that pressure (tensioner spring + oil pressure from the running engine) so the chain can be set correctly. This is why is critical to match the factory tool with the tension produced.

[Tavigdel]

When the engine produces 4,5 - 5 bar of oil pressure acc to Boxflyer, this tension just needs to be made by another method.

[Boxflyer]

 

The effect of the oil pressure plus the internal spring during riding operations must be what the engineers used to design the OEM Cam Chain Tension Tool.

Calculations and guesses are all that you can go on using the oil pressure figures published for normal operating tensioning of the cam chain guide rail.

 

What you must have is the actual tool from BMW to exactly replicate the maintenance procedure set forth in the Service DVD.

 

I have 3 of those OEM BMW Cam Chain Tensioner Tools that I used to design my tool so that it exactly replicated what the factory tool does.

 

Sorry, but I'll have to say that I consider it to be intellectual property since you want to go into business selling the tools that I spent hours and hours doing R&D making it work perfectly.

I certainly won't be selling one to you so you can copy it to start cranking them out for sale either.

 

Brad

[Tavigdel]

On 2/28/2024 at 7:11 PM, Boxflyer said:

 

The effect of the oil pressure plus the internal spring during riding operations must be what the engineers used to design the OEM Cam Chain Tension Tool.

Calculations and guesses are all that you can go on using the oil pressure figures published for normal operating tensioning of the cam chain guide rail.

 

What you must have is the actual tool from BMW to exactly replicate the maintenance procedure set forth in the Service DVD.

 

I have 3 of those OEM BMW Cam Chain Tensioner Tools that I used to design my tool so that it exactly replicated what the factory tool does.

 

Sorry, but I'll have to say that I consider it to be intellectual property since you want to go into business selling the tools that I spent hours and hours doing R&D making it work perfectly.

I certainly won't be selling one to you so you can copy it to start cranking them out for sale either.

 

Brad

Ok ,thank you very much.