2019 RT Rattle/pinging(?) noise

[brorke]

Hey all,

 

Just wanted to get some feedback on a rattle noise my RT has had since around 7-9000 miles.  Under load,  under4000-4200 rpm (depending on incline and or whether 2-up) the engine rattles. Now at 36,000 miles. It hasn't gotten worse. Bike runs excellent. Its been serviced several times. Had 3-different reputable dealers check it out over last few years and they found nothing wrong. Valves have been adjusted and cam timing as well. Top tier premium since day 1. I tried different octane boosters / fuel treatment...NO difference, so I ruled out pinging. Also tried cooler plugs a while back. NO difference

 

I know these engines like to rev, and I'm not easy on it. Above 4200 +/- it runs and sounds perfect. That's usually the range Im in, but find it strange that below that the rattle noise can be a little concerning. If its "normal" I can live with it. My previous boxers (hex heads) also liked to be at 4k +, but just didn't make as much noise when they weren't.

 

Thanks in advance for any input,

 

 

[dirtrider]

33 minutes ago, brorke said:

Hey all,

 

Just wanted to get some feedback on a rattle noise my RT has had since around 7-9000 miles.  Under load,  under4000-4200 rpm (depending on incline and or whether 2-up) the engine rattles. Now at 36,000 miles. It hasn't gotten worse. Bike runs excellent. Its been serviced several times. Had 3-different reputable dealers check it out over last few years and they found nothing wrong. Valves have been adjusted and cam timing as well. Top tier premium since day 1. I tried different octane boosters / fuel treatment...NO difference, so I ruled out pinging. Also tried cooler plugs a while back. NO difference

 

I know these engines like to rev, and I'm not easy on it. Above 4200 +/- it runs and sounds perfect. That's usually the range Im in, but find it strange that below that the rattle noise can be a little concerning. If its "normal" I can live with it. My previous boxers (hex heads) also liked to be at 4k +, but just didn't make as much noise when they weren't.

 

Thanks in advance for any input,

 

 

Afternoon Bill

 

Is it only under load? If so how much load?

 

It would be nice to hear the rattle as sometimes that can help identify it.

 

If you can get a GS-911 on it see if you can trap engine data when the problem is happening (possibly one side is seeing a lot of knock so is then removing spark advance). If you see little if any signs of spark retard & what you see is even side to side then you are probably not looking for a spark knock (ping) type issue. 

 

You might have a cam chain fluttering, this is difficult to pinpoint. In the past when I have suspected cam chain flutter I have removed the chain tensioners then re-installed with no gasket (just a very little dab of sealer to prevent leaking. If this changes the noise then you are probably looking in the correct area.  

 

It might even be piston slap, if it is then try getting the engine hot (like real hot) then see if the noise is reduced or changes. 

 

Or it might be normal as some engines are just noisier than others. 

 

Engine noises are difficult enough to find when working on the motorcycle (hands-on) & WAY more difficult over the internet. 

 

 

[brorke]

30 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Bill

 

Is it only under load? If so how much load?

 

It would be nice to hear the rattle as sometimes that can help identify it.

 

If you can get a GS-911 on it see if you can trap engine data when the problem is happening (possibly one side is seeing a lot of knock so is then removing spark advance). If you see little if any signs of spark retard & what you see is even side to side then you are probably not looking for a spark knock (ping) type issue. 

 

You might have a cam chain fluttering, this is difficult to pinpoint. In the past when I have suspected cam chain flutter I have removed the chain tensioners then re-installed with no gasket (just a very little dab of sealer to prevent leaking. If this changes the noise then you are probably looking in the correct area.  

 

It might even be piston slap, if it is then try getting the engine hot (like real hot) then see if the noise is reduced or changes. 

 

Or it might be normal as some engines are just noisier than others. 

 

Engine noises are difficult enough to find when working on the motorcycle (hands-on) & WAY more difficult over the internet. 

 

 

Hey DR...Thanks for the reply.

 

Load - Any type if incline is where it will be more sensitive to being under 4k. More so if Im 2-up.

 

I do have a GS-911. No fault codes, but have not tried to capture data.I'll have to look into that.

 

To me, it sounds like a mechanical rattle, like cam chain. I do have the new/updated LH tensioner installed (replaced under warranty). No difference. My bike has always been quiet at idle so that was never an issue.

 

No differences based on temperature.

 

Ive actually stripped off all the bodywork looking for something loose. I've also read it could be the throttle body butterflies rattling. Many people have been told the noise in "normal".  I just thought maybe someone on here has had it and resolved it. Figured worth a shot. A guy in Greece I have been discussing this with has been trying everything. He recently did a Bren Tune, and said the bike is more responsive, but noise still there. He seems to think its the cam timing going out of adjustment.

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, brorke said:

Hey DR...Thanks for the reply.

 

Load - Any type if incline is where it will be more sensitive to being under 4k. More so if Im 2-up.

 

I do have a GS-911. No fault codes, but have not tried to capture data.I'll have to look into that.

 

To me, it sounds like a mechanical rattle, like cam chain. I do have the new/updated LH tensioner installed (replaced under warranty). No difference. My bike has always been quiet at idle so that was never an issue.

 

No differences based on temperature.

 

Ive actually stripped off all the bodywork looking for something loose. I've also read it could be the throttle body butterflies rattling. Many people have been told the noise in "normal".  I just thought maybe someone on here has had it and resolved it. Figured worth a shot. A guy in Greece I have been discussing this with has been trying everything. He recently did a Bren Tune, and said the bike is more responsive, but noise still there. He seems to think its the cam timing going out of adjustment.

Afternoon Bill 

 

If you have GS-911 (the newer red one) then it will trap engine data into it's internal storage (large enough for many hours of data) 

 

I usually set the data trap up with as little extra data as possible (you don't need things like clutch switch, cruise control, neutral switch, etc. The less non-needed data the better as it makes data crunching a LOT easier. 

 

You can PM me a .CSV or Excel data trap if you need help understanding it. 

 

If you don't find any anomalies in the GS-911 data then you can probably quit looking for spark knock type things & move on to mechanical, or other combustion related things. 

 

Things like piston slap is usually much worse cold & decrease as the engine gets hotter (but not always more like usually). 

 

What I have done in the past is put a longer hose on my Mechanics stethoscope (with the stinger & diaphragm removed, ie open hose end) then stuff the open hose end under the tupperware in different locations (open end NOT pointing into the air flow or all you will hear is wind rush). Then riding the motorcycle in the problem-occurring range. This usually won't tell you what it is but can point you to where it is coming from on the engine.  

 

You can buy a cheap Mechanics stethoscope on-line (like E-Bay or Amazon), or most local auto parts stores usually carry them. 

 

[brorke]

40 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Bill 

 

If you have GS-911 (the newer red one) then it will trap engine data into it's internal storage (large enough for many hours of data) 

 

I usually set the data trap up with as little extra data as possible (you don't need things like clutch switch, cruise control, neutral switch, etc. The less non-needed data the better as it makes data crunching a LOT easier. 

 

You can PM me a .CSV or Excel data trap if you need help understanding it. 

 

If you don't find any anomalies in the GS-911 data then you can probably quit looking for spark knock type things & move on to mechanical, or other combustion related things. 

 

Things like piston slap are usually worse cold & decrease as the engine gets hotter (but not always more like usually)

 

What I have done in the past is put a longer hose on my Mechanics stethoscope (with the stinger & diaphragm removed ie open hose) then stuff the open hose end under the tupperware in different locations (open end NOT pointing into the air flow or all you will hear is wind rush). Then riding the motorcycle in the problem-occurring range. This usually won't tell you what it is but can point you to where it is coming from on the engine.  

 

You can buy a cheap Mechanics stethoscope on-line (like E-Bay or Amazon), or most local auto parts stores usually carry them. 

 

Thanks DR.....I'll keep in touch. And good idea re: stethoscope

[JCtx]

At those elevated rpm, it's not going to be piston-slap. If you had it, it'd be pretty bad when cold. If you don't hear it cold, then it doesn't have any. Now, may I ask you if you ride with earplugs or not? I suspect without, since the RT is pretty isolating, and that 'cocoon' also helps to amplify engine noises quite a bit. I feel an inherent harmonic vibration on my 1250 around those rpm, which I can also tell by my mirrors blurring a little bit. But I don't hear anything different... although I ride with earplugs, and my bike is a naked R. One thing I noticed on my last ride, when I didn't put my earplugs at the gas station near my house, was the left cylinder was noisier than the right (although still acceptably quiet), and I learned BMW quietly upgraded that tensioner, so I'll buy it this week. My local dealer, and even both Max and Bob's said they haven't  heard of a new tensioner (which was strange to me), and both also said there are no TSBs about that, so will buy it out of pocket. Anyway, since you already replaced it, that's not your issue. What I recommend is offering a forum member with another 1250 to swap rides for a few miles, so both of you could assess if your bike has a problem or not, before wasting any more time and energy on that 'issue'. My guess is it's just the nature of the beast (boxers are noisier than other engines), but better to make sure with another bike. Good luck.

[brorke]

1 hour ago, JCtx said:

At those elevated rpm, it's not going to be piston-slap. If you had it, it'd be pretty bad when cold. If you don't hear it cold, then it doesn't have any. Now, may I ask you if you ride with earplugs or not? I suspect without, since the RT is pretty isolating, and that 'cocoon' also helps to amplify engine noises quite a bit. I feel an inherent harmonic vibration on my 1250 around those rpm, which I can also tell by my mirrors blurring a little bit. But I don't hear anything different... although I ride with earplugs, and my bike is a naked R. One thing I noticed on my last ride, when I didn't put my earplugs at the gas station near my house, was the left cylinder was noisier than the right (although still acceptably quiet), and I learned BMW quietly upgraded that tensioner, so I'll buy it this week. My local dealer, and even both Max and Bob's said they haven't  heard of a new tensioner (which was strange to me), and both also said there are no TSBs about that, so will buy it out of pocket. Anyway, since you already replaced it, that's not your issue. What I recommend is offering a forum member with another 1250 to swap rides for a few miles, so both of you could assess if your bike has a problem or not, before wasting any more time and energy on that 'issue'. My guess is it's just the nature of the beast (boxers are noisier than other engines), but better to make sure with another bike. Good luck.

Hey JC,

 

Guilty as charged. I do not wear earplugs on the RT. And I have heard that the fairing (with lack of wind noise) + the Werks Quiet Ride windshield will amplify engine noise. My engine is very smooth, especially for a boxer. Seems to REALLY have smoothed out once I hit 30,000 miles. Im assuming this rattle is somewhat normal...And searching forums, its actually not just 1250 owners that claim to have it.

 

Im just enjoying the bike. BMW customer service and 3 dealers have it on record that I've mentioned it over the last few years.. Hopefully that helps if the engine quits....lol. I'll have to swap bikes with a buddy of mine that rides a 2023. Funny, he rode mine a few months back and was surprised at how much better mine runs. I was on his RS. Couldn't hear anything with the wind noise.

 

Here's the part number to the updated LH tensioner - 11317108586

 

Thanks for the feedback

 

[Hati]

@brorke did you compare it to an other RTs of the same vintage? That would be the ultimate decider IMHO if it was "normal" noise or an issue. Although my money is on "normal" noises since 28-30 k miles later is still runs like a dream.

[Bernie]

I don't ride any BMW without ear plugs. They all sound like they will fall apart at any time, even after 100,000+ miles.

Turn the radio up. 

[dirtrider]

34 minutes ago, Hati said:

@brorke did you compare it to an other RTs of the same vintage? That would be the ultimate decider IMHO if it was "normal" noise or an issue. Although my money is on "normal" noises since 28-30 k miles later is still runs like a dream.

Afternoon Hati

 

Define normal? 

 

Maybe more like accepted, but in todays motorcycle engines they shouldn't make mechanical noises that sound abnormal, bothersome, or terminal. 

 

Just because they run good for a lots of miles doesn't make an engine noise normal. It might not be an engine killer but it sure isn't right either. 

 

I have a friend with an old BMW 700 GS that now has over 100,000 miles on it. This motorcycle has had piston rattle almost all it's life, real bad cold, still there warm, & both pistons rattle all the way to about 3500 RPM's under moderate engine load or on about any quick-throttle-up load. He overheated it pretty bad when new so possibly that seized the piston skirt alloy & scored the skirts.  

 

He rides it bare (no windshield) with a full face helmet so it doesn't bother him but even with my bad hearing I can hear it when riding next to him. 

 

To him the noise is accepted but to me it is still not normal. If the BMW 700 wasn't such a pain to put new pistons in I would have fixed it for him long ago but he will probably ride it until it eventually dies. 

 

 

[brorke]

34 minutes ago, Hati said:

@brorke did you compare it to an other RTs of the same vintage? That would be the ultimate decider IMHO if it was "normal" noise or an issue. Although my money is on "normal" noises since 28-30 k miles later is still runs like a dream.

I have to take a ride on my buddy's 2023. Now that its getting cooler he'll be riding his RT more

[Bernie]

I think I know what DirtRider is trying to say. Everyone always had a strange look on their faces when I pulled into the parking lot with my 2018 RT, but I always was told by the dealers that the noise was “Normal”. Of course changing the worn intake cams didn't really make it any quieter. 

But I do have to say the 2023 RT is a lot nicer sounding.

[brorke]

19 minutes ago, Bernie said:

I think I know what DirtRider is trying to say. Everyone always had a strange look on their faces when I pulled into the parking lot with my 2018 RT, but I always was told by the dealers that the noise was “Normal”. Of course changing the worn intake cams didn't really make it any quieter. 

But I do have to say the 2023 RT is a lot nicer sounding.

I get it too.......And I was a little pissed off how the first dealer dismissed it. This is a thread about the noise. First video at about 25 sec. in is what I experience. Mine is always brief and not very often. A little throttle and it goes right away...Its just strange.

 

https://www.ukgser.com/community/threads/r1250gs-rattling-noise.368797/

[dirtrider]

14 minutes ago, Bernie said:

I think I know what DirtRider is trying to say. Everyone always had a strange look on their faces when I pulled into the parking lot with my 2018 RT, but I always was told by the dealers that the noise was “Normal”. Of course changing the worn intake cams didn't really make it any quieter. 

But I do have to say the 2023 RT is a lot nicer sounding.

Evening Bernie

 

I know that feeling as I own a dry clutch Ducati. You can hear that clutch hammering from 200 feet away. When I pull into places  it gets some mighty curious stares. I even had a young boy once ask me "Mister, is that going to blow up?" 

 

Long ago I spent a couple of hours restacking worn & new clutch plates & a shim spacer to quiet it down. Rode it like that for 3 days & it just didn't feel right having a quite clutch on a Ducati so I put it all back the way it was. 

 

The downside is, it was wasted work, the upside is, the clutch noise no longer bothers me.  

[Hati]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Define normal? 

 

Maybe more like accepted, but in todays motorcycle engines they shouldn't make mechanical noises that sound abnormal, bothersome, or terminal. 

 

Normal for the model.

 

On one hand we all know these boxer engines are not the quietest, nor the smoothest (compared to an inline 6 for example), often described as tractors. 

 

On the other hand we have a first time owner of a boxer in brorke, so the most likely outcome is that he is not aware/used to the noises this particular range of bikes make. Hence my suggestion to compare to another RT of the same vintage.

 

Nowhere did I say that there is no chance of anything being wrong, simply an exercise in probability given the situation. 

 

Happy with that?

[Bernie]

Is it possible, this noise happens when the cam shaft shifts from the high cam to the low cam? The noise happens after a upshift (drop in rpm's) and then stops when the revs increase. 

[duckhawk64]

My 2019 1250rt with 16k miles has a similar, minor gravelly rattling,  sound at low rpms  as the 2014 1209rt with 40k I previously owned.  I tried 105 octane racing fuel in the 2014 and it made no difference.  

I am just chalking my gravelly sound to...normal enough.

[Wayne Johnson]

I would circle back to the valve clearances. Did you check them or did your dealer? If they are "in spec" they will not adjust them. mine were barely in spec and very loud. Not sure my rattle was the same as yours but after Boxflyer did his magic my valve train was quieter than when I purchased it new. He likes to be on the tighter side of tolerance

[brorke]

33 minutes ago, Wayne Johnson said:

I would circle back to the valve clearances. Did you check them or did your dealer? If they are "in spec" they will not adjust them. mine were barely in spec and very loud. Not sure my rattle was the same as yours but after Boxflyer did his magic my valve train was quieter than when I purchased it new. He likes to be on the tighter side of tolerance

I've had the valves checked and adjusted by 2 different dealers. Both also checked cam timing. Now that my bike is no longer in warranty, I'd like to learn to do both myself. I did everything on my previous hex heads.

 

Both dealers I've used are very good. Tech I use now is meticulous. My bike always sounded quiet at idle. Always fires right up, cold or hot. Not ruling anything out, but the bike is running excellent.  Was serviced about 4k miles ago. I've heard Boxflyer is very knowledgeable. I'll keep watching for a tech day.

[brorke]

2 hours ago, duckhawk64 said:

My 2019 1250rt with 16k miles has a similar, minor gravelly rattling,  sound at low rpms  as the 2014 1209rt with 40k I previously owned.  I tried 105 octane racing fuel in the 2014 and it made no difference.  

I am just chalking my gravelly sound to...normal enough.

"Gravelly" is a good description. Thanks for the feedback

[Daveyator]

My 2020 1250RS was my first shift cam. It definitely made a “noise” that my 2015 1200RT simply didn’t. You might actually call it a rattle of sorts. My 2023 1250RT makes the exact same noise.

[JCtx]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:05 PM, brorke said:

First video at about 25 sec. in is what I experience.

I've never heard that noise before. It doesn't sound 'normal' to me... but might not be abnormal either. Hard to tell, but doesn't sound like an engine noise to me; it's completely arrhythmic, so I really doubt it's coming from the valves, or anywhere else inside the engine. It's more like a harmonic vibration, possibly coming from the transmission. Or it could even be something external vibrating, like the cat, or some other metal shield somewhere. It's really weird. It doesn't sound quite like a grinding noise (which would be really concerning), but I'd also be a bit concerned about it, especially if it wasn't there since new. Hope you can find what it is. Or at least where exactly it's coming from. Good luck.

[brorke]

8 hours ago, JCtx said:

I've never heard that noise before. It doesn't sound 'normal' to me... but might not be abnormal either. Hard to tell, but doesn't sound like an engine noise to me; it's completely arrhythmic, so I really doubt it's coming from the valves, or anywhere else inside the engine. It's more like a harmonic vibration, possibly coming from the transmission. Or it could even be something external vibrating, like the cat, or some other metal shield somewhere. It's really weird. It doesn't sound quite like a grinding noise (which would be really concerning), but I'd also be a bit concerned about it, especially if it wasn't there since new. Hope you can find what it is. Or at least where exactly it's coming from. Good luck.

Its like something is loose rattling around. Mine isn't nowhere near as bad as the video. Mine is very brief, but the same noise. Doesn't seem to sound low in the engine/trans. Almost like its coming from under the tank, but its hard to tell. I've checked / tightened everything.  One master tech did hear it very briefly when he rode my bike. He said its nothing to worry about. On a Euro forum, techs are saying its from the throttle bodies rattling at certain RPM's. And when I switch the ign. on (not starting the bike) there's a noise at the throttle bodies that resembles the noise I hear...but at a lower volume. And that noise is considered normal

 

Eh...who knows.I have learned that the 1250 engine prefers to rev more that my previous hex heads. And the RT is geared higher than my old GSA. So I had to adjust to the RT a bit at first. I've just learned to live with the occasional noise because the bike is just so good besides that. But next service Ill bring it up again.