1999 R1100rt Hard Start

[Tsūkin-sha]

Well, after a successful diagnosis and repair based on knowledge gleaned here, I am back with another conundrum.  After about 8k trouble free miles, this same daily commuter (1999 R1100rt) developed a hard starting symptom about two weeks ago that I thought was a dying starter.  The battery was replaced 8/22 with a BMW agm and seems to charge and hold a charge well.  After looking through some threads here, I went out and checked the voltage drop during starting and found it to go down to 5-6, no bueno.  I bought a new Voleo starter and after bringing the battery up to 13v, attempted a start, with only slightly better results.  I believe this is due to the bike being in my shop, where it’s warmer.  Any idea where I should check next?  

[dirtrider]

13 hours ago, Tsūkin-sha said:

Well, after a successful diagnosis and repair based on knowledge gleaned here, I am back with another conundrum.  After about 8k trouble free miles, this same daily commuter (1999 R1100rt) developed a hard starting symptom about two weeks ago that I thought was a dying starter.  The battery was replaced 8/22 with a BMW agm and seems to charge and hold a charge well.  After looking through some threads here, I went out and checked the voltage drop during starting and found it to go down to 5-6, no bueno.  I bought a new Voleo starter and after bringing the battery up to 13v, attempted a start, with only slightly better results.  I believe this is due to the bike being in my shop, where it’s warmer.  Any idea where I should check next?  

Morning  Tsūkin-sha

 

That isn't a true voltage drop test it is more of a cold cranking battery voltage test. A true voltage drop test measures the voltage drop both sides of the starting circuit,   between starter B+ post & battery (+) post & between starter case & the battery (-) post during engine cranking.  

 

In any case, unless the engine is difficult to turn over, or the ignition timing is way advanced then it sort of points to a low, sulfated, or bad battery.  

 

If you bought a BMW battery then have the battery properly load tested. This would be where, personally, I would start looking anyhow. 

 

Just because the charger shows it is charged doesn't always tell the truth, it could show it at full charge but if sulfated, or on a GEL battery the GEL is bubbled away from the plates it can show fully charged but have very low cold cranking amperage. 

 

You also might try cranking it with the coil disconnected (or spark plug wires pulled off the plugs & shorted to ground) just to eliminate the possibility of having too much spark advance during cold cranking. 

 

 

 

 

[Tsūkin-sha]

Inasmuch as the battery is only a year old, I also suspect it is the culprit.  I have a load tester coming from the Amazons today and will test the CCA’s, and will report back.  While all the tupperware was off, I adjusted her valves, so that was a win.  

[Tsūkin-sha]

Well, the load tester is a nice diagnostic tool for the DIY’r.  I was able to prove the battery was crap and that the charging system was bueno, all with one connection.  Anyone have good luck with the Odyssey batteries sold on the Amazons?  

[Skywagon]

If I had a dollar for every time DR was right on the first swing, I’d be as rich as @Rougarou

 

odysssey is a great battery, but has special charging needs and a  charger for the right voltage.

 

Someone will be along shortly and explain. See @boxflyer for some battery recommendations 

[Rougarou]

10 hours ago, Skywagon said:

If I had a dollar for every time DR was right on the first swing, I’d be as rich as @Rougarou

 

You funny,....not rich, just cheep

 

10 hours ago, Skywagon said:

odysssey is a great battery, but has special charging needs and a  charger for the right voltage.

 

Someone will be along shortly and explain. See @boxflyer for some battery recommendations 

 

On the odyssey, nope, never again will I buy one.  I shouldn't have to buy a specific charger/maintainer just for a battery.  The Odyssey takes something like a 14v charging/maintingin thing 'nother.......Dirtrider can give the technical explanation.

 

My RT, I suppose like most others, has a small parasitic drain, so if I'm off the bike for a month, no starting for me, so it has to go on the maintainer.  I've got the grey block BMW maintainer that came with the 06 when I bought it, a few of battery tender jr that I'd plug in the RT when I first got an Odyssey, well, that battery hiccuped and died.  Couldn't leave the bike more than a couple of days and then it was a no start situation.  Got a warranty replacement, 'cause dumb me didn't read the "maintainer/charger" recommendations from Odyssey, and now I have another maintainer (CTEK) specifically bought for the Odyssey.  I'm coming out my ass with maintainers.  Anyway, a battery shouldn't be that finicky to maintain.

 

I'm prolly gonna go back to Deka

[dirtrider]

Quote

Anyone have good luck with the Odyssey batteries sold on the Amazons?  

Morning Tsūkin-sha

 

Yes, I have had extremely good luck with the Odyssey PC 680 battery.

 

BUT, big BUT here, the Odyssey does take a slightly higher charging voltage & a more defined float charger voltage to not sulfate. 

 

The Odyssey PC 680 typically requires around 14.7 volts @ 70°f battery temperature to FULLY charge. Problem is the old BMW 1100 usually charges in the 13.8 (give or take) charging range. 

 

But a number of riders including myself ran the Odyssey PC 680 battery in the 1100 motorcycle with few issues. But again a qualifier, we rode those motorcycle daily  & almost never put them on a trickle charger. In the BMW 1100 motorcycle with a stock charging system the Odyssey battery  never made it to a full charge.  

 

The big killer of the Odyssey battery is incorrectly charging it with a trickle charger, the PC 680 is an AGM battery, but it is a special AGM battery, as it is both a starting battery & a deep cycle battery. It's that slightly higher charging & specific requirement maintaining thing that usually  kills the PC 680 if the incorrect trickle charger is used. 

 

In looking at the picture of the trickle charger in your first post above it does have an AGM cycle but no snowflake cycle. That charger almost certainly doesn't meet the PC 680's charging requirement.

 

Bottom line, you can just toss an Odyssey PC680 battery into your BMW 1100 but if it isn't ridden regularly and if/or you don't use the correct (approved) battery charger then you probably won't be all that happy with it. 

 

 

On the other hand if you modify your alternator (with new higher output regulator, or just add a diode to your existing regulator) then buy a proper (Odyssey approved) charger/maintainer, then you can get a very long life (I have gotten over 10 years on a PC-680 battery).   

 

Is it worth the effort, to me it is but every case if different. I live in a 4 season state with a number of motorcycles, so the PC-680 is a big help as the internal-self-discharge of the PC 680 is extremely low so I can just disconnect the PC 680 battery for off-season storage then only need to put a charger on it once (if even that) during the entire winter storage period.  

 

If that BMW battery was replaced on 8/22 it m-i-g-h-t still be under BMW warranty (I'm not sure on the BMW battery warranty). Are you sure it is an AGM? A number of the replacement BMW batteries are GEL not AGM. If a GEL and  it was charged as a AGM then that can kill the GEL battery. 

 

If it is in fact an AGM you might be able to disulfate it (it still seems to have decent open circuit voltage just no cranking capacity). If it is in fact a BMW GEL battery then it more than likely has GEL damage from some sort of overcharging issue. A GEL battery (once damaged) is usually not recoverable.

[Tsūkin-sha]

Well, this has been a lesson learned and appreciate the detailed post; very helpful.  I’ve been away for a bit but came home to the new PC680 battery here.  It is installed, the ABS flashy-thing reset, and the tupperware re-installed.  It sounds like I will have to nut-up and get the ultra skookum charger.  I will not be riding from mid-January through the end of May, so I don’t want to trash the battery.  

 

You were correct on the BMW battery being gel, not AGM.  I couldn’t read it while still installed.  I may play around with trying to disulfate.  It’s not like I have anything to lose, right?

[Tsūkin-sha]

The Optimate chargers are on the allowed list Odyssey posts, but not the 4, only the 6 & 7.  My Model 4 does have the snowflake, but time will tell.  I ride it four days a week, so until I leave, it should get plenty of charge.  Maybe not with the Gerbing jacket liner and gloves keeping me toasty.  😆

[dirtrider]

20 hours ago, Tsūkin-sha said:

 

You were correct on the BMW battery being gel, not AGM.  I couldn’t read it while still installed.  I may play around with trying to disulfate.  It’s not like I have anything to lose, right?

Evening Tsūkin-sha

 

The usual failure with the GEL battery is not sulfation but the actual GEL bubbling away from the plates, this decrease the cranking capacity of the battery but the remaining GEL still in contract with the plates still produces a good solid open circuit voltage (just not enough current under engine cranking).

 

If you try to de-sulfate a GEL battery that unusually just bubbles more GEL away from the plates & makes the problem worse.

 

 

When you put the charger on your new PC-680 battery put a voltmeter on the battery during the bulk charging phase, if it shows close to 14.7 volts (@ about 68°f)  then it will probably be OK to use.

 

For your   " mid-January through the end of May " storage period, if your charger doesn't meet the PC 680  charging requirements then you are probably better off to just disconnect the battery from the motorcycle then let it sit in the cool storage. The PC 680 has a very low self discharge rate so they store (open circuit) for a long time. 

[Tsūkin-sha]

Thank you, DR.

[Redfoxx]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:57 PM, Tsūkin-sha said:

The Optimate chargers are on the allowed list Odyssey posts, but not the 4, only the 6 & 7.  My Model 4 does have the snowflake, but time will tell.  I ride it four days a week, so until I leave, it should get plenty of charge.  Maybe not with the Gerbing jacket liner and gloves keeping me toasty.  😆

The Optima 4, only puts out 1amp which is not high power for the Odyssey battery.  the 6-7 are the same just higher amp rating.