Camhead throttle blip choke?

[Hadabadachada]

2013 R1200R 

since I got the bike I notice here and there, when I blip the throttle or am about to take off from a stop and move, the bike almost dies, sometimes does. It happened at a green light the other day. Letting out the clutch and start twisting the gas and it choked and died. I’m usually able to pull the clutch and stop it before it dies. 

 

I didn’t know if that was something with these bikes or not. Maybe it’s just the fuel map. 

have done the valves, balanced TBs have been running injector cleaner in it every so often, still the same, hasn’t changed.

 

gotta be a fuel issue. It seems like it would be clogged injectors, first twist of the throttle, butterfly starts opening but no/not enough fuel and stutter. 
 

anyone ever notice this on their bike?

[Hosstage]

Do you get fuel from the same station all the time, or is it from multiple stations, multiple brands?

[dirtrider]

20 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

2013 R1200R 

since I got the bike I notice here and there, when I blip the throttle or am about to take off from a stop and move, the bike almost dies, sometimes does. It happened at a green light the other day. Letting out the clutch and start twisting the gas and it choked and died. I’m usually able to pull the clutch and stop it before it dies. 

 

I didn’t know if that was something with these bikes or not. Maybe it’s just the fuel map. 

have done the valves, balanced TBs have been running injector cleaner in it every so often, still the same, hasn’t changed.

 

gotta be a fuel issue. It seems like it would be clogged injectors, first twist of the throttle, butterfly starts opening but no/not enough fuel and stutter. 
 

anyone ever notice this on their bike?

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

I have heard of a couple complaints on the camhead bikes doing that but it isn't normal.

 

If it otherwise runs good under power & at speed then most likely not an injector or fuel flow problem. The place I would start looking is that the TPS output is smooth & linear with no dip in output in the problem range. You will probably need a (newer) GS-911 then set it up to trap engine data while riding. Then go through the data after the ride looking at all the data  but especially the TPS data string.

 

Other places to look is at the o2 sensor voltage data.

 

If you have a lot of miles on your spark plugs then possibly replace those.   

 

 

[Hosstage]

Not sure what is recommended on your particular model, but has the throttle body itself been cleaned?

[Hosstage]

I am certainly not trying to step on dr's toes here, he is the one to follow. I go for the simple stuff, dr is the true technician.

[Hadabadachada]

Okay, I’ll have to see about doing that with the GS911, maybe I can throw the laptop in my backpack or something while i ride to get data. 
 

sparkplugs are new. 
 

And I forget what else I was gonna say after I reopen this at work

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Hadabadachada said:

Okay, I’ll have to see about doing that with the GS911, maybe I can throw the laptop in my backpack or something while i ride to get data. 
 

sparkplugs are new. 
 

And I forget what else I was gonna say after I reopen this at work

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

What GS-911 do you have?  If the red wi-fi version then no laptop while riding needed as you can pre-set it up to trap the data into the GS-911 itself (they hold a LOT of internal data).  

[Hadabadachada]

Nope, I have the wired one 

[lkraus]

I stumbled across a thread reporting a similar problem.  Turned out to be the TPS, diagnosed with an ohmmeter that showed the TPS returned inconsistent values.  See https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/camhead-low-speed-stumbling.1595411/page-2#post-45993481 and following posts and video.  This might be easier to check than riding around with a GS-911 hooked up.

[Hadabadachada]

Nice, thanks. 
I was going to post today and ask, how do I check the TPS, like, what values am I looking for and where to set?

 

I’ve done the process on my 04 1100S. 
it was like 300 or 250 or whatever number you have to set the TPM at for zero. 
 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Hadabadachada said:

Nice, thanks. 
I was going to post today and ask, how do I check the TPS, like, what values am I looking for and where to set?

 

I’ve done the process on my 04 1100S. 
it was like 300 or 250 or whatever number you have to set the TPM at for zero. 
 

 

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

The newer BMW bikes have a fixed position TPS so there is no manual setting or re-setting. 

 

Checking the TPS with an ohmmeter is most likely not going to show you the problem as that doesn't show the TPS output as the fueling computer sees it. 

 

You really should set up your GS-911 then ride the motorcycle as you trap real-time data as you ride it. If/when you get the glitch then quickly open the throttle a little  3 times right after the glitch happens (this makes it SO MUCH easier to find the problem area in the GS-911 data as you just need to look for the 3 throttle blips). You want to see what the fueling computer is seeing & showing when the problem is happening. 

 

If your problem started happening AFTER you did the throttle balance then make darn sure you don't have a tight throttle cable at hot engine curb idle. This can cause an erratic TPS voltage at throttle return to curb idle.  

[Hadabadachada]

I’ll have to give this a go.

 

the issue has always been there since I got the bike. I only did all of these things to try and remedy the problem. 
 

it almost felt like it went away when the temps got cooler the last few days. As well as this fuel injector cleaner I added, gave me the feeling it may have cleared itself, but it still happens, must be the TPS. 
 

so there is no adjusting the position like would be done on the oilhead?

so it would have to be an internal/wear issue as mentioned in the adv rider post. 
 

shucks. I’ll just keep riding, I’ve become mostly used to it. Doesn’t seem to effect anything else, tho I suppose it is.

[dirtrider]

30 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I’ll have to give this a go.

 

the issue has always been there since I got the bike. I only did all of these things to try and remedy the problem. 
 

it almost felt like it went away when the temps got cooler the last few days. As well as this fuel injector cleaner I added, gave me the feeling it may have cleared itself, but it still happens, must be the TPS. 
 

so there is no adjusting the position like would be done on the oilhead?

so it would have to be an internal/wear issue as mentioned in the adv rider post. 
 

shucks. I’ll just keep riding, I’ve become mostly used to it. Doesn’t seem to effect anything else, tho I suppose it is.

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

The TPS automatically adjusts (or is supposed to anyhow). The 1200 hexhead had a manual TPS relearn procedure. That isn't listed for the camhead but I always do it anyhow as there isn't much if any difference between the hexhead & the camhead fueling control.

 

You might try it just to see____________

 

TPS re-learn procedure-----

 

*Disconnect the lead to the battery's positive  post for about 3 minutes.
Then 
*Reconnect the positive lead to the battery's positive terminal.
Then
*Switch on the ignition.
Then
*Without starting the engine, fully open/close the throttle once or twice so that the control unit of the BMW engine management system can register the throttle-valve open/closed positions.
Then
*Switch off the ignition.

That's it__
 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

More___

 

If the TPS relearn doesn't help & you have a GS-911 then USE IT!!!! You paid good money for it so might as well get your money's worth from it. 

 

Set it up to trap engine data then ride it until it acts up (right after it acts up blip the throttle about 3 times, or press the brake pedal 3 times, or turn the cruise control off & on 3 times. Any of those will be very notable in the trapped data so should make it easier to find the area in the (extensive) data that pertains to the problem.  

 

If you don't understand the trapped data then just PM it to me in Excel format, or in .CSV format. 

[Hadabadachada]

I guess I don’t even need to ride, as I can just sit there and flick the throttle and eventually it’ll do it. 

[dirtrider]

More yet__

 

Even if you don't want to ride it with the GS-911 hooked up you can at least check the TPS operation at home. This will allow you to do about the same (actually better) than removing the tupperware, forcing probes into the sealed TPS terminals.

 

Just hook the GS-911 up then watch the TPS data as you slowly open & close the throttle.  

 

[dirtrider]

1 minute ago, Hadabadachada said:

I guess I don’t even need to ride, as I can just sit there and flick the throttle and eventually it’ll do it. 

Afternoon  Hadabadachada

 

I just posted about that above. Don't flick it slowly & purposely move the throttle like you are riding it. 

[Wooster]

I have a well behaved R1200R. W/O any throttle issues. While in my younger years I did basic tunes e. g tb balance, valve adjust presently in my dotage I recently paid the dealer for a tune and. new tires. The smoother motor and new tires are worth the $ imo. 
Hope you get it sorted out. Otoh a good dealer/tech done tune solves a lot. 
Wooster. 

[Hadabadachada]

I’ve contacted the local dealers about other things, they say they don’t work on bikes 10 years or older, lol pretty wild IMO.

 

I did the reset thing, and the fueling felt better, I haven’t noticed the little choke for a couple days, but there’s been a couple times it has happened.

 

I gotta hook up the GS911 to see

[Wooster]

In southern New England we benefit from Max BMW, a net work of four (I think) dealers where  they pride themselves on serving beemers of all ages. At the same time my ride is a 2014 dark white r1200r. 
Wooster

[pwillikers]

Wooster, what the heck is your avatar?

[Hadabadachada]

Yeah these dealers down here are crap, I never go to them, take my chances on my own.

 

there’s also John Long’s motorcycles.

classic Miami racer garage. I’d trust them with old but I don’t know if they are super up on the new.

[Wooster]

Pwillikers,

Fair question. Some time ago I attended a wedding reception in an art gallery. The bride in a moment of jubilation placed her vail on a bronze statue of a young girl. Later some one stuck a cigarette in the statue’s mouth. I was photographed trying to light the bronze’s smoke. Truly I should rethink the image as I donot condone under age smoking. 
wooster

[Hadabadachada]

What kinda cigarette?

 

[Wooster]

Wasn’t wacky weed. Funny the gallery had a showing during the wedding reception. One condition was hiring an undercover guard to safe guard the art. We played a game trying to spot the guard yet with bride’s family from New Jersey, several future in laws looked the part. 
Wooster whose r1200r got out today

[Hadabadachada]

So I have not dug out my computer yet. I don’t typically use one really at all since I stopped working at Apple. 
 

but I’m thinking it’s the TPS, reason being is because when I’m coming off the throttle, slowing down with traffic, and reach a certain position in the revs, sometimes it’ll feel like I let off the throttle. Usually in the area around 3000 revs. 
Not always, but sometimes. Kinda like the going on the throttle or blipping. 
 

Seems like a similar kinda deal to me.
 

Something loose in there 

 

 

what say you?

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

So I have not dug out my computer yet. I don’t typically use one really at all since I stopped working at Apple. 
 

but I’m thinking it’s the TPS, reason being is because when I’m coming off the throttle, slowing down with traffic, and reach a certain position in the revs, sometimes it’ll feel like I let off the throttle. Usually in the area around 3000 revs. 
Not always, but sometimes. Kinda like the going on the throttle or blipping. 
 

Seems like a similar kinda deal to me.
 

Something loose in there 

 

 

what say you?

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

Is this happening (only) at "closed throttle"? If so then seeing as your motorcycle is fuel injected there is a closed-throttle fuel cut-off built into the fueling system electronics. 

 

Hook your GS-911 up then watch the TPS output as you slowly &  smoothly work the throttle to verify the TPS throttle-valve-position (%) starts at 0 (closed throttle) then goes up & down in a predictable way with no jumps, gaps, or odd behavior. 

 

I'm not sure if your older GS-911 gives you a TPS relearn option on the camhead but if so then do a new TPS relearn. If your GS-911 doesn't  offer TPS option then do a battery (+) cable disconnect for about 3 minutes, then reconnect  the (+) cable, then turn the key on (do not start engine), then fully open/close the throttle a couple of times to re-teach the TPS positions. 

[Hadabadachada]

On a warm engine I presume, or is this irrelevant?

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

On a warm engine I presume, or is this irrelevant?

Morning  Hadabadachada

 

Usually it doesn't matter but in your case the closer you can get the engine temperature to the temperature that it was at when the problem occurred the better chance you have of discovering something.  

[jjpen]

I have thought long and hard about what I am about to say, but I will say it anyway.  I had similar issues with a r1200rt 2012 and started using a product called Startron in the fuel.  It ran better right away and after a few tanks of treated fuel, it is running as well as a well-tuned carbureator.  It might be a coincidence that it runs better but I buy the marine grade at Walmart in the quart size and use it all the time.  Expect to pay about $20 but it only takes one-half ounce per tank.  This product will not help a perfectly running engine to run better but I have had improvement several times.  Try at your own risk.

[Hosstage]

2 hours ago, jjpen said:

I have thought long and hard about what I am about to say, but I will say it anyway.  I had similar issues with a r1200rt 2012 and started using a product called Startron in the fuel.  It ran better right away and after a few tanks of treated fuel, it is running as well as a well-tuned carbureator.  It might be a coincidence that it runs better but I buy the marine grade at Walmart in the quart size and use it all the time.  Expect to pay about $20 but it only takes one-half ounce per tank.  This product will not help a perfectly running engine to run better but I have had improvement several times.  Try at your own risk.

This is one reason I asked early on if different brands of fuel from different stations had been used, or if it is consistently filled at the same station all the time. I always like to start with simple things.

[Hadabadachada]

I typically always fill up at shells, most of the time by my house but not all the time.

I sell the startron and have used that before, as well as Techron and a few others, doesn’t change my issue.

 

I’ve done the battery disconnect thing before and it felt better for a little but the issue is still there. 
 

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, Hadabadachada said:

I typically always fill up at shells, most of the time by my house but not all the time.

I sell the startron and have used that before, as well as Techron and a few others, doesn’t change my issue.

 

I’ve done the battery disconnect thing before and it felt better for a little but the issue is still there. 
 

Afternoon Hadabadachada

 

Problem with those fuel additives, & even different types of gasoline, is sometimes you will see a difference in engine runability (but only for a short time). The fuel additive, or different gasoline, can change the o2 sensor output so the engine fueling can actually be a bit different but this is short lived as the engine fueling  (learned adaptives) quickly learn the new adaptives so it goes right back to where it was before.    

[jjpen]

I might try not using the Startron in the future but for right now I am so glad to have an engine run as smooothly as my old airheads I am afraid to change anything.

[Hadabadachada]

I was wondering if maybe the exhaust flapper could have anything to do with anything. 
 

was thinking about unhooking the cables to keep it open. Assuming the flapper is open by default and the cables help close it…

Don’t want to spend money on the little pipe adapter.

the cable sheaths are getting worn through and grimy now anyway.

 

I hooked the GS911 up and worked the throttle on and off. Seems to be a delay when looking at the % when twisting the throttle, very inconclusive, though maybe the log picks it up more detailed. 
 

Just seems like the very beginning inputs on the throttle are not as smooth as they should be.

 

[6speedTi]

23 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

I was wondering if maybe the exhaust flapper could have anything to do with anything. 
 

was thinking about unhooking the cables to keep it open. Assuming the flapper is open by default and the cables help close it…

Don’t want to spend money on the little pipe adapter.

the cable sheaths are getting worn through and grimy now anyway.

 

I hooked the GS911 up and worked the throttle on and off. Seems to be a delay when looking at the % when twisting the throttle, very inconclusive, though maybe the log picks it up more detailed. 
 

Just seems like the very beginning inputs on the throttle are not as smooth as they should be.

 

Yes their is a delay in the TPS reading. It is probably a slow refresh rate. You can try to deselect all the parameters except the TPS and see if that gives you a closer reading to real time. 

[Hadabadachada]

I guess I have not looked to see if any of these parameters would show up with the engine off.

be nicer to twist the throttle and check percentages with the engine off. Can’t really check to hold 100% binging off the limiter.

 

I haven’t tried, but the GS911 wants the engine on to get the info right?

[Hati]

2 hours ago, Hadabadachada said:

I haven’t tried, but the GS911 wants the engine on to get the info right?

 

Ignition on, yes, not necessarily engine running.