2009 RT not starting

[bimmers]

This is about my old 2009 RT and trying to help friend in a pickle.

He is just south of SAvannah GA and the closest dealers do not work on "over 10 year old bikes" (Nothing new there)

Bike sat for about 2 months and battery died.

Battery replaced with new one.

Upon starting it cranks fine but no life. Fresh gas in tank.

Checked side stand switch, no change up or down but did not the switch itself.

Tried rotating rear wheel in high gear if that would help, no change.

Since it does not have a HES sensor what could be fuel/spark related but neither side says anything, no sputter. So I just believe it could be something simple, but what? 

No symptoms prior to leaving it under cover but in GA coastal humid air.

Has now about 35k miles with no history of issues. Recalls taken care of etc. 

Does have a need for Brake flush and service with brake warning active but functioning brakes. 

 

Hans 

 

 

[dirtrider]

33 minutes ago, bimmers said:

This is about my old 2009 RT and trying to help friend in a pickle.

He is just south of SAvannah GA and the closest dealers do not work on "over 10 year old bikes" (Nothing new there)

Bike sat for about 2 months and battery died.

Battery replaced with new one.

Upon starting it cranks fine but no life. Fresh gas in tank.

Checked side stand switch, no change up or down but did not the switch itself.

Tried rotating rear wheel in high gear if that would help, no change.

Since it does not have a HES sensor what could be fuel/spark related but neither side says anything, no sputter. So I just believe it could be something simple, but what? 

No symptoms prior to leaving it under cover but in GA coastal humid air.

Has now about 35k miles with no history of issues. Recalls taken care of etc. 

Does have a need for Brake flush and service with brake warning active but functioning brakes. 

 

Hans 

 

 

Morning   bimmers

 

A little more info on what is happening when the key is first turned on would help us help you.

 

Can he hear the fuel pump run for a second or two when the key is turned on? 

 

Can you have him check for a spark while cranking?  

 

Have him hold the throttle at about 1/4 throttle while cranking. 

 

I all else fails have him do a new TPS relearn (should be done any time a dead battery is replaced in the hexhead motorcycle). It still should start without doing a TPS reset but a proper calibrated TPS does help starting.

 

TPS re-learn procedure-----

 

*Disconnect the lead to the battery's positive  post for about 3 minutes.

Then 
*Reconnect the positive lead to the battery's positive terminal.

Then
*Switch on the ignition.

Then
*Without starting the engine, fully open/close the throttle once or twice so that the control unit of the BMW engine management system can register the throttle-valve positions.

Then
*Switch off the ignition.

 

That's it__

[bimmers]

Ok he turns key and NO fuel pump. 

Now trying to get plug out to check for spark as well. 

 

Is there a fuse for the fuel pump? Or would it freeze up for some reason?

 

 

[bimmers]

I will see him next week and then do some troubleshooting with him.

he sent a picture of the spark plug "connector" which he cannot get off so I need to help him get to the plug. 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

13 minutes ago, bimmers said:

Ok he turns key and NO fuel pump. 

Now trying to get plug out to check for spark as well. 

 

Is there a fuse for the fuel pump? Or would it freeze up for some reason?

 

 

Morning   bimmers

 

Yes fuel pumps can seize up if the motorcycle is stored with alcohol containing fuel (especially in high moisture areas).

 

The other thing that the 1200 bikes were noted for were FPC (Fuel Pump Controller) failures but the 2009 1200 came from the factory with the latest  (better)  high-fin black FPC. 

 

It might come to this after other things are ruled out__  the FPC can be by-passed as a test by running 12v directly to the fuel pump.   

[bimmers]

I will see him next week and then do some troubleshooting with him.

he sent a picture of the spark plug "connector" which he cannot get off so I need to help him get to the plug. 

Thanks I will review with him and also ask what fuel he uses as he has a marine fuel tank on site which would imply it is ethanol free. 

 

H

 

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, bimmers said:

I will see him next week and then do some troubleshooting with him.

he sent a picture of the spark plug "connector" which he cannot get off so I need to help him get to the plug. 

 

 

 

Morning   bimmers

 

Looks like he broke the ears off of the coil (using an improper removal method). 

 

The coil can still be removed by looping a STRONG string around the coil cap then using a rod or (something) to pull the coil out. It helps to rotate the coil first to TRY to CAREFULLY break it free.

 

He also has to be really careful as he CAN pull the coil out but if the lower coil boot is stuck tight to the spark plug he will rip the boot right off of that expensive coil. 

 

He can also try a lower coil (bottom of cylinder head).  

[bimmers]

I will see him next week and then do some troubleshooting with him.

he sent a picture of the spark plug "connector" which he cannot get off so I need to help him get to the plug. 

I have the removal tool(s) so we should get it out.

I sent him the instructions for resetting TPS and he did.

After that the engine sputtered a couple of times but did not run. So now he is waiting for me to get there on Friday. I also noticed that hearing the fuel pump running is hard, you have to lean against the fairing to make sure, I will redo it when there to see if it runs or not.

 

Til then

 

H

 

 

[dirtrider]

48 minutes ago, bimmers said:

I will see him next week and then do some troubleshooting with him.

he sent a picture of the spark plug "connector" which he cannot get off so I need to help him get to the plug. 

I have the removal tool(s) so we should get it out.

I sent him the instructions for resetting TPS and he did.

After that the engine sputtered a couple of times but did not run. So now he is waiting for me to get there on Friday. I also noticed that hearing the fuel pump running is hard, you have to lean against the fairing to make sure, I will redo it when there to see if it runs or not.

 

Til then

 

H

 

 

Afternoon bimmers

 

If it sputtered then did he try holding the throttle 1/4 open while trying to start? 

[bimmers]

Ill check when there.

h

[Rougarou]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:14 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning   bimmers

 

Looks like he broke the ears off of the coil (using an improper removal method). 

 

The coil can still be removed by looping a STRONG string around the coil cap then using a rod or (something) to pull the coil out. It helps to rotate the coil first to TRY to CAREFULLY break it free.

 

He also has to be really careful as he CAN pull the coil out but if the lower coil boot is stuck tight to the spark plug he will rip the boot right off of that expensive coil. 

 

He can also try a lower coil (bottom of cylinder head).  

 

I use these curved needlenose pliers to pop those things off.

 

 

Put the tines in the stick coil groves, nice firm grip.  Utilizing the back of the pliers as the fulcrum on head, slowly pry the coil out.

 

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Put the tines in the stick coil groves, nice firm grip.  Utilizing the back of the pliers as the fulcrum on head, slowly pry the coil out.

 

Morning Rougarou

 

Problem is, the grooves are gone as the outer lips of the original grooves are broken off of the coil.

 

He is probably going to have to loop something (like a strong string,  or some sort of strong cord)  around the coil body that allows pulling on both the rear of the connector area and coil body itself.  

[Rougarou]

Ya, looks like there's a wee bit of grip there, but it also looks like the grooves were broken "inward" vice looking like something trying to pull out.

 

Prolly will have to get some cord around it, mebbe a prusik type knot that'll hold the grip as the pull happens.

[bimmers]

Of course my plans changed so never made it to his place. I'll try to first get to know fuel/spark situation but he needs to get the coil off. He can of course take the other side off that should be intact. 

 

H

[dirtrider]

1 minute ago, bimmers said:

Of course my plans changed so never made it to his place. I'll try to first get to know fuel/spark situation but he needs to get the coil off. He can of course take the other side off that should be intact. 

 

H

Afternoon bimmers

 

It will come off using the strong string trick but if it is stuck firm enough that the tool pulled  the ears off of the coil then pulling on it hard enough to break it loose & off of the spark plug could easily pull the coil apart. 

 

 

[bimmers]

Fuel pump runs when turning key and spark is there when cranking, still not starting??

So given that bike was running, then sat for a month and battery died? And now it wont start. Throttle bodies would be next on fuel distribution list but why would both go simultaneously?? Not likely also they would have given notice during last ride (legal requirement😷)I assume.

This leads me to side stand switch once again, what else could it be that prevents a start, but he said it does have spark..... and plugs were clean and in good order, and cranking in neutral should leave ss switch out??

I also checked on mine that the emergency cut off does not allow to crank at all. I'm lost and we may have to get it to someone with a diagnostic 911. Worst case I can get it here to me in Jupiter and have Joe Taffuri look it over here. 

 

H

 

[beemer chuck]

I would take a look thru the filler cap to see if there is splashing or spraying of fuel when the fuel pump runs. You might have a cracked or loose nylon hose on the pump. 
I have seen this happen on an f650cs from 2003. If that looks ok, I would try a 1 or 2 second shot of starting fluid in the air inlet snorkel. Don’t overdo the starting fluid.

That should tell you if it is fueling or not..

If you have a fuel pressure gage available, you could tee into the fuel pump line under  the left fairing panel. Should be ~50psi and hold for a minute or so.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, bimmers said:

Fuel pump runs when turning key and spark is there when cranking, still not starting??

So given that bike was running, then sat for a month and battery died? And now it wont start. Throttle bodies would be next on fuel distribution list but why would both go simultaneously?? Not likely also they would have given notice during last ride (legal requirement😷)I assume.

This leads me to side stand switch once again, what else could it be that prevents a start, but he said it does have spark..... and plugs were clean and in good order, and cranking in neutral should leave ss switch out??

I also checked on mine that the emergency cut off does not allow to crank at all. I'm lost and we may have to get it to someone with a diagnostic 911. Worst case I can get it here to me in Jupiter and have Joe Taffuri look it over here. 

 

H

 

Evening bimmers

 

If the fuel pump runs  & you have spark then it should run (if the fuel is good with no water in it).

 

Your next move is going to depend on what you have available. You could try a fuel return hose test to see if the pump is actually pumping fuel.  Or remove a fuel injector (with wire pigtail & fuel line hooked up) then point the fuel injector into a container & crank the engine to see if you are actually getting a fuel spray from the injector. 

 

How many miles ago was the fuel tank filled?  Or put another way is there actually fuel in the tank? The fuel gauge on the BMW 1200RT is known to fail & lie so make sure that it actually has fuel in the tank. 

 

A GS-911 is a good diagnostic tool but won't show you if you have bad fuel or a fuel pump that is running but not pumping. 

 

 

[Hosstage]

Funny you mention checking for fuel in the tank. Just went thru that with a friend.  He did all kinds of troubleshooting, even swapped ignition with another friend's bike.

Yup, out of gas.

[Skywagon]

 

[bimmers]

I will check the fuel level but he said it was at least 1/4 tank. He fills it up at home with non-ethanol marine fuel. 

The starting fuel idea could work but so far the fairing is still on the bike so that has to come off.

 

Injector removal is also a good idea but why would both sides go?? It should run on one cylinder or at least ignite. 

 

He was talking about slightly pressurizing the tank.

 

Since we are fiddling with boats and water as well one thought I just had is if there somehow could be an airlock in the fuel system, U know how you have to purge diesels after changing fuel filter etc.. because of air in the lines. That is not at high pressure end though. 

 

Eventually we will find that it was a simple thing and we all are overthinking it...................like no fuel.

 

h

[dirtrider]

I will check the fuel level but he said it was at least 1/4 tank. He fills it up at home with non-ethanol marine fuel. 

The starting fuel idea could work but so far the fairing is still on the bike so that has to come off.--- Is he going by the fuel gauge or from what he has actually put in it? 

 

Injector removal is also a good idea but why would both sides go?? It should run on one cylinder or at least ignite.--- The fuel injector removal (then cranking) is to verify the fuel pump & fuel system is working. If one side sprays fuel then the other side should also be spraying. If the test side doesn't spray any fuel then he has a fuel delivery or an injector command issue.  

 

He was talking about slightly pressurizing the tank.-- Won't help as the fuel system takes at least 40 psi at the injectors to spray enough fuel to start & run the engine. He will blow the plastic fuel tank up it he tries to get any where near that pressure.

 

Since we are fiddling with boats and water as well one thought I just had is if there somehow could be an airlock in the fuel system, U know how you have to purge diesels after changing fuel filter etc.. because of air in the lines. That is not at high pressure end though. -- Fuel system is a pressure/return (dual line) system so it self purges with fuel pump running. 

 

Eventually we will find that it was a simple thing and we all are overthinking it...................like no fuel.-- Definitely  check for fuel or at least add some more. 

 

 

 

 

[bimmers]

Joe got the bike, found out that fuel pump was faulty. Now it runs fine.

Odd issue has appeared, "Brake failure" warning stays on at times and not at other times. Tried it when on and brakes were not linked and seemed like ABS was not working on rear wheel. So guidance is to now use brakes as in old times front and rear separated and only front when rear is not needed.

 

Joe noticed this but when on his jack the light went off just like what I have experienced now. No fault codes appeared with 911. 

 

New tires were also added and I was horrified by new tire pricing Ab. $600 for installed pair of Michelin Road6. That is more than for my "high performance" car. 

 

All said bike works and owner is happy to have it back and starting.

 

H

[bimmers]

Not Again!!!!!!!

He ran 40 miles all find stop for 15 min, starts fine rides 10 miles sputtered a little but runs and stops a while later. Sits for 1 hour would not start, then starts and runs for 3 miles sputters like starved of fuel and finally stops. Did not start again. Now its been sitting over night and nothing done to it so far.

 

So it has a new fuel pump, could it be a loose connection on top of pump? Could it be a crimped hose? Or just plain the fuel pump not being good??

I first thought of the fuel filter but since it is really just a screen and nothing changed inside tank except fuel pump assembly removed and pump replaced and put back I don't think the filter would be so dramatically clogged. 

 

I  do not know any details after he got it home so will try to again remotely troubleshoot with him by first removing fairing and inspect top of tank/pump connections.

And I will order a GS-911 if they have some offers this week. (With dongle for the 10 pin connector) 

 

H

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, bimmers said:

Not Again!!!!!!!

He ran 40 miles all find stop for 15 min, starts fine rides 10 miles sputtered a little but runs and stops a while later. Sits for 1 hour would not start, then starts and runs for 3 miles sputters like starved of fuel and finally stops. Did not start again. Now its been sitting over night and nothing done to it so far.

 

So it has a new fuel pump, could it be a loose connection on top of pump? Could it be a crimped hose? Or just plain the fuel pump not being good??

I first thought of the fuel filter but since it is really just a screen and nothing changed inside tank except fuel pump assembly removed and pump replaced and put back I don't think the filter would be so dramatically clogged. 

 

I  do not know any details after he got it home so will try to again remotely troubleshoot with him by first removing fairing and inspect top of tank/pump connections.

And I will order a GS-911 if they have some offers this week. (With dongle for the 10 pin connector) 

 

H

Morning bimmers

 

It actually does have a real fuel filter but unfortunately it isn't designed for field replacement. The fuel filter is part of the fuel pump assembly so if a fuel pump assembly was installed then it should now have a new fuel filter.

 

Was the FPC (fuel pump controller) replaced? That is the finned device on top of the fuel pump assembly that the wires plug into. Those are somewhat noted to fail but not so much on the 2009 1200 as the late 1200 bikes already have the updated black high fin  FPC.

 

You can jumper around the FPC with 12 volts direct to the fuel pump to by-pass the FPC for testing purposes. 

 

Otherwise a GS-911 m-i-g-h-t show you something but in a lot of cases, unless it is a monitored system, the GS-911 might turn up nothing. 

 

Unfortunately, without more specific info from you/or/him  it is a crapshoot diagnosing over the internet as even the dealer having it hands-on  didn't seem to be able to find the problem. 

 

You are probably going to have to (first) figure out if it is lacking spark, or fuel/flow pressure, or fuel injector command before narrowing in or where to look for the problem. 

 

If the FPC wasn't replaced that would be a good first thing to look at.

 

Is there any type of warning on the dash when it won't start (like EWS?)

 

Can he hear the fuel pump run for a couple of seconds at key-on?

[lkraus]

I think you need to bypass the FPC, if only to rule it out.  I don't think a GS-911 will tell you if the FPS is faulty.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, lkraus said:

I think you need to bypass the FPC, if only to rule it out.  I don't think a GS-911 will tell you if the FPS is faulty.

Afternoon Larry

 

A GS-911 can tell you if the FPS is bad but I don't know if that assessment by the GS-911 is 100% reliable as I have heard of a few that didn't show a current failure code & I'm not sure if they checked for a stored code.

 

It's been a while so I can't remember the failure code for the older 1200RT's but it usually says something like (Electric fuel pump faulty).  It might also show something like (Output Stage to Electric Fuel Pump Faulty) or (fuel pump electronics).

 

The later 1200 bikes (at least camhead's) will usually say something like   (Electric Fuel Pump System faulty) and/or (Fuse activated for electric Fuel-pump), this usually points to a bad FPC.

[bimmers]

Thanks good advice as usual.

 

H

[dirtrider]

25 minutes ago, bimmers said:

Thanks good advice as usual.

 

H

Afternoon bimmers

 

You can make an FPC by-pass cable but they are (at least were) fairly cheap to buy). A BMW 1200 rider should probably carry an FPC by-pass cable (or at least ride with someone that carries one). 

 

Burns moto  carries a FPC by-pass cable          https://burnsmoto.com/collections/frontpage     that a lot of riders carry, it mostly works BUT!, it plugs into the factory power outlet. On the early 1200 bikes the factory power outlet port is only 5 amps so that isn't high enough to run the fuel pump. 

 

In the later 1200 bikes the power port is 10 amps and that is right on the edge of being high enough to run the pump at full power so it can cause the power outlet port to shut down to auto protect itself. 

 

My personal FPC by-pass cable is made with the same FPC end connector but is inline fused at 15 amps & hooks directly to the battery posts.  

 

You can also put ( BMW 1200 FUEL PUMP CONTROLLER BYPASS CABLE )  into E-Bay search & probably find a few for sale. With that search you can usually also find the FPC end connector to make you own FPC by-pass cable. 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon bimmers

 

More FPC info:

 

If the fuel pump runs for a couple of seconds at key-on then the FPC is at least partially working. The fuel pump might not run again at a quick re-key-on (some need a bit of time between key-on's to run the pump again). Hearing it run isn't 100% but if it does run at key-on then they usually will at least  try to start for a couple of cylinder fires anyway. 

 

Look at the FPC, if it is silver then just replace it.  If it is black (high fin) then those seldom fail (but that doesn't mean that it can't fail, I just haven't seen one fail).

 

If the FPC is silver then have your VIN handy then call your BMW dealer, BMW offered a free replacement on the silver ones under some sort of recall/good will recall/ etc, that was even for out of factory warranty 1200 bikes but I really don't know the details on if they will still cover it for WAY out of warranty 1200 bikes.  Do push a little on this as most dealers first response is to say they never heard of that so have them check with BMW then get back to you.  

 

If it has a silver FPC then they really should have replaced that when installing a new fuel pump.

 

 

 

[bimmers]

I will have to check this on my 2006 as well. So far has been running well anyway. The 2009 is the one where I got gas leaks and it was covered under the recalls. The 06 I believe has always behaved well.

 

H