Shiftcam Brake Fluid?

[Paddler]

Anybody know if the BMW stuff is better than other stuff like Pentosin, Brembo, Motul, etc? 

 

Also, it's weird that BMW uses Torx Plus screws for the front brake fluid reservoir.  Anybody change those out to regular Torx?

[6speedTi]

https://www.finepowertools.com/hand-tools/torx-vs-torx-plus/

 

Torx plus were designed for higher torque applications. Interesting to see them on a brake fluid reservoir cover.

[Paddler]

3 hours ago, 6speedTi said:

https://www.finepowertools.com/hand-tools/torx-vs-torx-plus/

 

Torx plus we're designed for higher torque applications. Interesting to see them on a brake fluid reservoir cover.

Thanks for the link.  I didn't know that you can use standard Torx bits on Torx Plus screws.  I hadn't even heard of Torx Plus until a couple of days ago.  I'm not sure which bit I used at the first year change as a T20 bit is loose and the T25 is a no go.  I didn't have a problem, though.  Do you know which Torx Plus bit fits those screws?

[JCtx]

Our bikes require DOT4 brake fluid; just use a quality one. I typically use Prestone synthetic DOT4, since I don't track my bike. And remember the clutch uses mineral fluid, so do NOT use brake fluid there. I don't think there's a need to replace mineral fluid, but haven't checked the manual on this bike. I opened it to check fluid level, and it seemed low, but there's no freaking 'max' line. So topped it off a little, but spilled, so guess it was fine before. So might as well leave it alone.

[MikeB60]

Actually our bikes call for DOT 4 LV (low viscosity). Ford calls for the same spec of brake fluid and I typically use Motorcraft DOT 4 LV in the bikes along with the Mustang and F150. LINK

[6speedTi]

25 minutes ago, MikeB60 said:

Actually our bikes call for DOT 4 LV (low viscosity). Ford calls for the same spec of brake fluid and I typically use Motorcraft DOT 4 LV in the bikes along with the Mustang and F150. LINK

Best DOT 4 LV I've found and use now on all my vehicles is Pentosin. 

[Paddler]

5 minutes ago, 6speedTi said:

Best DOT 4 LV I've found and use now on all my vehicles is Pentosin. 

Are there two Pentosin brake fluids?  One for cold temps, the other for normal?

[6speedTi]

This one is not LV. Not much difference between the two but if your vehicle calls for LV then use the LV. If your vehicle does not call for LV you can still use LV brake fluid. I use the LV on all my vehicles because it is more readily available where I live.

[dirtrider]

8 hours ago, JCtx said:

Our bikes require DOT4 brake fluid; just use a quality one. I typically use Prestone synthetic DOT4, since I don't track my bike. And remember the clutch uses mineral fluid, so do NOT use brake fluid there. I don't think there's a need to replace mineral fluid, but haven't checked the manual on this bike. I opened it to check fluid level, and it seemed low, but there's no freaking 'max' line. So topped it off a little, but spilled, so guess it was fine before. So might as well leave it alone.

Morning  JCtx

 

Do not overfill your clutch reservoir, unlike the brake system (where the fluid level goes down as the brake pads wear) on the hydraulic clutch system the fluid level in the reservoir INCREASES as the clutch wears. 

[JCtx]

14 hours ago, MikeB60 said:

Actually our bikes call for DOT 4 LV (low viscosity).

My 2020 doesn't; it clearly says on the reservoir lid: 'USE ONLY DOT4 FLUID FROM A SEALED CONTAINER'. If LV was required, it'd say there. Newer systems that cycle ABS more quickly, do need LV. Motorcycles typically lag car technology, so didn't know BMW was already requiring LV. Maybe just RTs, since they now have adaptive cruise (especially if it includes emergency braking, like with cars), which needs a more sophisticated ABS system, I guess. But at least my oldish 2020 doesn't. I know the 1250 change came in 2019, but don't know if the ABS/TC was improved too, or it's the same since 2015, when the bike started looking like mine (with the ape a$$ headlight. Ha ha... which finally changed in 2023). Curious if somebody knows how the 'cornering' ABS/TC has been evolving since its debut in 2015. But thank you for the heads up.

 

6 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Do not overfill your clutch reservoir, unlike the brake system (where the fluid level goes down as the brake pads wear) on the hydraulic clutch system the fluid level in the reservoir INCREASES as the clutch wears. 

The good news is you cannot overfill it... as long as the membrane is not collapsed. As soon as I dropped the membrane into the reservoir, the excess spilled out, and once it stopped leaking, ended up where it was before. And the 'accordion' membrane is designed to accommodate any expansion. I think BMW considers it lifetime fluid, but it'd be a good idea to change it at some point, no? Do any of you have done that?

[Paddler]

31 minutes ago, JCtx said:

My 2020 doesn't; it clearly says on the reservoir lid: 'USE ONLY DOT4 FLUID FROM A SEALED CONTAINER'. If LV was required, it'd say there. Newer systems that cycle ABS more quickly, do need LV. Motorcycles typically lag car technology, so didn't know BMW was already requiring LV. Maybe just RTs, since they now have adaptive cruise (especially if it includes emergency braking, like with cars), which needs a more sophisticated ABS system, I guess. But at least my oldish 2020 doesn't. I know the 1250 change came in 2019, but don't know if the ABS/TC was improved too, or it's the same since 2015, when the bike started looking like mine (with the ape a$$ headlight. Ha ha... which finally changed in 2023). Curious if somebody knows how the 'cornering' ABS/TC has been evolving since its debut in 2015. But thank you for the heads up.

 

The good news is you cannot overfill it... as long as the membrane is not collapsed. As soon as I dropped the membrane into the reservoir, the excess spilled out, and once it stopped leaking, ended up where it was before. And the 'accordion' membrane is designed to accommodate any expansion. I think BMW considers it lifetime fluid, but it'd be a good idea to change it at some point, no? Do any of you have done that?

 

Yes, my Owner's Manual specifies Dot 4, not LV, on page 162.  Good news!

[MikeB60]

Nevermind!

[dirtrider]

39 minutes ago, Paddler said:

 

Yes, my Owner's Manual specifies Dot 4, not LV, on page 162.  Good news!

Afternoon  Paddler

 

You might check with your BMW dealer, my new BMW parts book calls for Dot 4 LV, my local BMW dealer services the 1250 bikes with Dot 4 LV. You might see if your BMW dealer has a service bulletin on using Dot 4 LV. 

 

If the motorcycle has Traction Control or ASC those typically require the low viscosity brake fluid. 

 

When in doubt I use the LV fluid as you can use Dot 4 LV  in a regular dot 4 system & can probably top the fluid off in an LV system with a little Dot 4 but I sure wouldn't use regular dot 4 in a Dot 4 LV system that has Traction Control or ASC without first seeing if BMW has addressed this with a service bulletin or newer information. 

[Paddler]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  Paddler

 

You might check with your BMW dealer, my new BMW parts book calls for Dot 4 LV, my local BMW dealer services the 1250 bikes with Dot 4 LV. You might see if your BMW dealer has a service bulletin on using Dot 4 LV. 

 

If the motorcycle has Traction Control or ASC those typically require the low viscosity brake fluid. 

 

When in doubt I use the LV fluid as you can use Dot 4 LV  in a regular dot 4 system & can probably top the fluid off in an LV system with a little Dot 4 but I sure wouldn't use regular dot 4 in a Dot 4 LV system that has Traction Control or ASC without first seeing if BMW has addressed this with a service bulletin or newer information. 

Thanks, DR, I'll check with my dealer.

[JCtx]

Did some reading after Dirtrider mentioned you could use DOT4 LV instead of DOT4. The best recommendation is to stick with what the manufacturer recommends. Brembo said if an owner feels the need for better brake system performance, that it'd be okay to switch from DOT4 to DOT4 LV, so guess it should be safe to do so. My only motivation for doing that would be if I rode in the winter, since brake fluid (just like oil), gets more viscous the colder it is... but I don't. The coldest I ride on my naked R1250R is high 50s, since I only ride for the twisties, and grip diminishes with the cold. Plus I don't like putting any wind protection on my bike.

 

Anyway, I'm due for another brake fluid change (first done 10/4/21, with 0 miles, due to 2+ years after build date), and wondering if BMW put out a TSB to use LV even on my oldish 2020. Does anybody know? Curiously, neither of my '23, nor '24 vehicles call for LV fluid. So far, only Ford has called for it, on both of my ex vehicles ('18 F-150 4x4 Platinum 3.5EB, and '20 Mustang Bullitt V8). Finally, does anybody know if DOT4 LV is any more hygroscopic than regular synthetic DOT4? If no TSB, will probably stick with the same Prestone synthetic DOT4 I used last time... or a better one, if I see it at Walmart. It should me perfectly fine if not tracking, no? In fact, I hardly use the brakes, even at the canyons. I run at a fast pace, at full lean angle, but mostly keep the same pace, with moderate acceleration exiting curves, and engine braking before them. Sometimes I pick up the pace a little bit, but not for long. Went on a possible last ride of the season to Gila (hwy 152) on Friday, and just passed 2 cars on 68 miles of twisties. It was awesome.

[Skywagon]

@dirtrider
 

DR.. reading this thread leaves me with a question. My 2014RT manual calls for Dot 4. It says Dot4 only on the front reservoir. It definitely has ASC and ABS. 
 

Has BMW issued something that says use LV or is LV just the better answer for ASC and ABS

 

Ill call the dealer and see if they have a newer service bulletin, but my dealer has gone down hill so much, I will be amazed if they know. 

[Paddler]

1 hour ago, JCtx said:

Did some reading after Dirtrider mentioned you could use DOT4 LV instead of DOT4. The best recommendation is to stick with what the manufacturer recommends. Brembo said if an owner feels the need for better brake system performance, that it'd be okay to switch from DOT4 to DOT4 LV, so guess it should be safe to do so. My only motivation for doing that would be if I rode in the winter, since brake fluid (just like oil), gets more viscous the colder it is... but I don't. The coldest I ride on my naked R1250R is high 50s, since I only ride for the twisties, and grip diminishes with the cold. Plus I don't like putting any wind protection on my bike.

 

Anyway, I'm due for another brake fluid change (first done 10/4/21, with 0 miles, due to 2+ years after build date), and wondering if BMW put out a TSB to use LV even on my oldish 2020. Does anybody know? Curiously, neither of my '23, nor '24 vehicles call for LV fluid. So far, only Ford has called for it, on both of my ex vehicles ('18 F-150 4x4 Platinum 3.5EB, and '20 Mustang Bullitt V8). Finally, does anybody know if DOT4 LV is any more hygroscopic than regular synthetic DOT4? If no TSB, will probably stick with the same Prestone synthetic DOT4 I used last time... or a better one, if I see it at Walmart. It should me perfectly fine if not tracking, no? In fact, I hardly use the brakes, even at the canyons. I run at a fast pace, at full lean angle, but mostly keep the same pace, with moderate acceleration exiting curves, and engine braking before them. Sometimes I pick up the pace a little bit, but not for long. Went on a possible last ride of the season to Gila (hwy 152) on Friday, and just passed 2 cars on 68 miles of twisties. It was awesome.

 

I looked hard at the R1250R before opting for the RS.  Almost wish I'd gone that was as I haven't been able to get clean airflow over my helmet regardless of which of the four positions I have the stock windscreen in.  Plus, by the time I put the small windscreen on R, which cost $600(!), I was very close to the price of the RS.  However, I just bought an new Shoei RF1400, which seems much less subject to air turbulence.  Best helmet I've ever had, except it feels like I'm ging to rip my earlobes off when I take it off.

 

We'll be riding down to southern Utah next week and will be traversing a 10,500' pass.  Maybe LV would be better.

[6speedTi]

Based on my past experience in performing maintenance tasks on all my vehicles it is always best to follow the latest information from the service manual as they get updated often for various reasons. I doubt BMW will change their reservoir covers to read DOT 4 LV after already installed.  My 2012 says DOT 4 on the reservoir but the service manual was updated to DOT 4 LV.  The only comparison I can think of is a 1973 Corvette calls for GR70x15 radial tires with a 24 psi rating. Obviously that size is no longer available. That psi rating is too low by today's standards. 

[JCtx]

1 hour ago, Paddler said:

 

I looked hard at the R1250R before opting for the RS.

Hey, I did the opposite. Ha ha. I wanted a naked bike, but I imagined the RS would handle better, so it was going to be a difficult decision. But for some weird reason, turns out the R actually handles better, and feels nimbler, since it has more aggressive steering geometry. Plus the RS has an overly aggressive riding position, so the R was an easy decision for me. Just in case it wasn't sporty enough, I bought the accessory sport handlebar, which basically has the riding position of the RS, but it's perfect as it is, so the sport bar is just gathering dust in my garage, ready for the next owner. Ha ha. It's great for the twisties, as well as 300+ mile days. Oh, and after dozens of bikes, I didn't want a windscreen anymore; I was very tired of the incessant wind noise too (some more than others), even with 33dB earplugs. Now there's ZERO turbulence; just like if I stand on the pegs. And that's AWESOME. Plus you feel the speed more, so I don't want another fairing/windscreen ever again. I could do 85-90 all day without discomfort, so no need for more speed.. which also keeps my driver's license safe as well. But I'm glad BMW makes both. Finally, I envy you going to Utah; that's awesome. I want to do it some day on the bike, and revisit CO too (trailering my bike). Maybe next year. Enjoy it for me too.

 

 

1 hour ago, 6speedTi said:

I doubt BMW will change their reservoir covers to read DOT 4 LV after already installed. My 2012 says DOT 4 on the reservoir but the service manual was updated to DOT 4 LV.

That's true, but on the other hand, if BMW really wanted LV on our bikes, my 2020 would already have LV on the reservoir. Or at least on the owner's manual, and it's not there on neither one (see below). Will wait a few days to see if somebody posts something where it's recommended that my 2020 uses that LV fluid. Otherwise I'd keep using synthetic DOT4.

[Paddler]

42 minutes ago, JCtx said:

Hey, I did the opposite. Ha ha. I wanted a naked bike, but I imagined the RS would handle better, so it was going to be a difficult decision. But for some weird reason, turns out the R actually handles better, and feels nimbler, since it has more aggressive steering geometry. Plus the RS has an overly aggressive riding position, so the R was an easy decision for me. Just in case it wasn't sporty enough, I bought the accessory sport handlebar, which basically has the riding position of the RS, but it's perfect as it is, so the sport bar is just gathering dust in my garage, ready for the next owner. Ha ha. It's great for the twisties, as well as 300+ mile days. Oh, and after dozens of bikes, I didn't want a windscreen anymore; I was very tired of the incessant wind noise too (some more than others), even with 33dB earplugs. Now there's ZERO turbulence; just like if I stand on the pegs. And that's AWESOME. Plus you feel the speed more, so I don't want another fairing/windscreen ever again. I could do 85-90 all day without discomfort, so no need for more speed.. which also keeps my driver's license safe as well. But I'm glad BMW makes both. Finally, I envy you going to Utah; that's awesome. I want to do it some day on the bike, and revisit CO too (trailering my bike). Maybe next year. Enjoy it for me too.

 

The buffeting was so bad I tried riding the RS sans windscreen.  No appreciable difference.  I also have an R1100R, and trmmied down the factory screen. Again, no difference.  I even went down to the dealer looking to maybe buy an R, selling the old bike to make room in the garage and keeping the RS.  But, and it's a big one, with a new pair of Howard Leight earplugs and my new helmet all is good.  Very quiet and no buffeting, 

 

Also, I'm not going to Utah, I live here.  Lots of great riding.

[JCtx]

Oh, nice!!! I live in the middle of nowhere, so that's why I never ride here... unless I'm heading to the mountains (like last Friday). And I've had the quietest (or less noisy, rather) helmets with my previous bikes, and the wind noise (and in some cases buffeting) was tiring after a few hours. I've had several RFxxx helmets, then Arais, and now GT Airs, which are probably the least noisy. I don't want to use 'quietest', because if I forget to put my earplugs on, wind noise is deafening above 50 mph, even in clean air. I also use Howard Leight (Max Lites, which are 30 NRR, not 33. Sorry), which are the only ones that I can tolerate. Need to look into more comfortable silicon ones, especially for multi days. Finally, I could make my helmet a little quieter by blocking all air from the neck, but it's super hot here, so not an option for me. That's why even if the Schuberth helmets fit me (they don't), I wouldn't buy one. They're probably nice for winter, but I don't ride in winter. I bought my ex-2014 RT to block the wind, which it did, but felt like a furnace, so that experiment didn't work. Ha ha. Fortunately, BMW issued a recall, and offer to buy it back, so I accepted, and they paid me every penny I put on the bike, including the Akra, navigator, and all taxes. Just a minimal adjustment for mileage, but it was only fair.

[dirtrider]

16 hours ago, Paddler said:

The buffeting was so bad I tried riding the RS sans windscreen.  No appreciable difference.  I also have an R1100R, and trmmied down the factory screen. Again, no difference.  I even went down to the dealer looking to maybe buy an R, selling the old bike to make room in the garage and keeping the RS.  But, and it's a big one, with a new pair of Howard Leight earplugs and my new helmet all is good.  Very quiet and no buffeting, 

 

Also, I'm not going to Utah, I live here.  Lots of great riding.

Morning Paddler

 

You probably need to use nothing (no windscreen at all) so you get a strong but smooth Air flow over your helmet, or try a wind deflector to get most of the air to deflect up & over your helmet. 

 

I use a Puig adjustable wind deflector on some of my dirt bikes & while not totally smooth at all speeds & wind directions the improvement is dramatic. 

 

There are a number of adjustable wind deflectors on the market but from what I have experienced Puig makes the best. The problem is in finding the exact Puig that actually works IN YOUR SITUATION. Sometimes you need to get as much of the air flow as you can to go over your helmet and other times you may need get  more air flow lower down to prevent buffeting (buffeting is usually caused by separate air flows meeting or converging behind the windscreen then buffeting in the mating zone). 

 

Sometimes even adding lower air blocks or under cowling air deflectors can make a big difference. From my past experience of removing or at least lowering buffeting it my take a number of tries plus a number of strategically placed deflectors to make a confrontable air pocket to ride in. 

 

Click link below for what I am talking about, this isn't THE recommended just a basic  design that is recommended to try.

 

https://www.cyclegear.com/parts/puig-windscreen-visor-kit?gclid=CjwKCAjwyY6pBhA9EiwAMzmfwd3uNV3qeengnJBK1up33VghSKzgCHfz6EtRdojKdTBXdnJFpvV-KBoC5mQQAvD_BwE

 

 

[Paddler]

Thanks, DR.  I read a technical article a couple of years ago about windscreens that said basically you either need to have a screen tall enough to push the air up over your helmet or no windscreen at all.  It was an extensive article, comparing windscreens at 90*, 45* at different heights and speeds compared to no windscreen at all.

 

I've been around and around on this issue for a long time.  Not crazy about really tall windscreens or the add-on visors for aesthetic reasons.  And as I said above, riding the RS without the windscreen isn't much better than with the windscreen in any of the possible four positions.  Ideally I'd like to have wind protection for my torso but have my helmet in clean air, but that doesn't appear to be possible.  I thought a mini fairing such as the one on the old R90S would be good but I haven't found one for the RS.

 

But for now it looks like a pair of fresh earplugs combined with the new helmet works well.  The new RF1400 is narrower from side to side than the Arai, so seems more aerodynamic.  We'll see if that holds up on or next trip.

[JCtx]

2 hours ago, Paddler said:

I read a technical article a couple of years ago about windscreens that said basically you either need to have a screen tall enough to push the air up over your helmet, or no windscreen at all.

Yep; I've confirmed that myself the hard way. Ha ha. And just removing the windscreen doesn't eliminate turbulence, like you found out the hard way too. Anyway, I came to the conclusion I'm a naked bike rider. I truly enjoy riding with nothing in front of me, clean wind in my 'face' (or helmet), and on a sporty bike capable of having fun in the twisties, while being able to ride all day. I preferred something lighter, but I don't want a chain anymore, so my current R is the absolute best compromise I found, since it also has every imaginable feature you could want on a bike, including a center stand, cornering ABS, cruise, TFT, shaft drive, adjustable suspension, single-sided swingarm, etc. And you can make it a quasi-touring bike, if you want.

[Paddler]

35 minutes ago, JCtx said:

Yep; I've confirmed that myself the hard way. Ha ha. And just removing the windscreen doesn't eliminate turbulence, like you found out the hard way too. Anyway, I came to the conclusion I'm a naked bike rider. I truly enjoy riding with nothing in front of me, clean wind in my 'face' (or helmet), and on a sporty bike capable of having fun in the twisties, while being able to ride all day. I preferred something lighter, but I don't want a chain anymore, so my current R is the absolute best compromise I found, since it also has every imaginable feature you could want on a bike, including a center stand, cornering ABS, cruise, TFT, shaft drive, adjustable suspension, single-sided swingarm, etc. And you can make it a quasi-touring bike, if you want.

 

We tour on both my bikes, my buddy rides the R1100R while I'm on the RS.  We do a 1700-2200 mile tour each year.  The R is a great touring bike and does everything the RS will do, just a bit slower on top.  That said, I like a bit of bug protection.

[Hosstage]

I run one bike with no shield, my favorite, and one bike full fairing and shield, sometimes also my favorite, especially in rain or cold weather.

I rarely wear a helmet, cuz someone has to set a bad example. No shield, bugs hurt, but I still like it.

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, Paddler said:

Thanks, DR.  I read a technical article a couple of years ago about windscreens that said basically you either need to have a screen tall enough to push the air up over your helmet or no windscreen at all.  It was an extensive article, comparing windscreens at 90*, 45* at different heights and speeds compared to no windscreen at all.

 

I've been around and around on this issue for a long time.  Not crazy about really tall windscreens or the add-on visors for aesthetic reasons.  And as I said above, riding the RS without the windscreen isn't much better than with the windscreen in any of the possible four positions.  Ideally I'd like to have wind protection for my torso but have my helmet in clean air, but that doesn't appear to be possible.  I thought a mini fairing such as the one on the old R90S would be good but I haven't found one for the RS.

 

But for now it looks like a pair of fresh earplugs combined with the new helmet works well.  The new RF1400 is narrower from side to side than the Arai, so seems more aerodynamic.  We'll see if that holds up on or next trip.

Evening Paddler

 

You might play around with bent plastic tabs & some tape or 2 sided tape. If you can't get clean air with the windshield removed then the air that is causing the buffeting is probably coming around sides or up from the fork area.

 

When chasing buffeting issues I have some cut off broom handles with different shape plastic pieces on the end. Anything from credit card size to 8"x10".  I ride one handed then move the plastic pieces around to see if I can effect the buffeting. 

 

Even something simple like taping some 6" pieces of yarn to the sides of the windshield, turn signals, top of fuel tank, lower parts under the dash, etc can show you what the air flow is actually doing. Once you understand the air flow then you can try small plastic tabs or similar to see if you can effect the air flow & make it smoother. 

 

Before I found a windshield that actually worked at 85+ on my 800GS I bought a used (but scratched) stock windshield off of E-Bay then cut a slot in in the center just above the bottom.   That let just enough air in through the lower windshield filling the negative-pressure area directly behind the windshield. It wasn't perfect but made a whale of a difference. 

 

If you work at it you can probably find something that helps as sometimes all it takes is a couple of bent credit card tabs to make a noticeable difference. 

[Paddler]

Clearly I get some wicked turbulence. How else do you explain bugs smashed on the back side of the wind screen?  Weird.

[Hosstage]

1 minute ago, Paddler said:

Clearly I get some wicked turbulence. How else do you explain bugs smashed on the back side of the wind screen?  Weird.

That is weird. Not seen that before.

[Hati]

8 hours ago, Hosstage said:

That is weird. Not seen that before.

 

Not really. On my '21 RT I regularly get bugs on that "good" side of the screen. Most often (that I have seen) they come up around the forks and smash into the screen. Grasshoppers can come through there if they hop off the surface as the bike passes. Had many of them hit me like that.

[Paddler]

I just called my dealer, they said they have no service bulletin recommending DOT4 LV and said to just use regular DOT 4.  Now, if they'd just use regular Torx screws rather than Torx Plus...

[JCtx]

Thank you for posting that info. I'll do the brake bleed job this weekend with synthetic DOT4 then. And will try to kill off my tires in Cloudcroft either tomorrow or Friday.

[Paddler]

On 10/8/2023 at 6:48 PM, JCtx said:

Hey, I did the opposite. Ha ha. I wanted a naked bike, but I imagined the RS would handle better, so it was going to be a difficult decision. But for some weird reason, turns out the R actually handles better, and feels nimbler, since it has more aggressive steering geometry. Plus the RS has an overly aggressive riding position, so the R was an easy decision for me. Just in case it wasn't sporty enough, I bought the accessory sport handlebar, which basically has the riding position of the RS, but it's perfect as it is, so the sport bar is just gathering dust in my garage, ready for the next owner. Ha ha. It's great for the twisties, as well as 300+ mile days. Oh, and after dozens of bikes, I didn't want a windscreen anymore; I was very tired of the incessant wind noise too (some more than others), even with 33dB earplugs. Now there's ZERO turbulence; just like if I stand on the pegs. And that's AWESOME. Plus you feel the speed more, so I don't want another fairing/windscreen ever again. I could do 85-90 all day without discomfort, so no need for more speed.. which also keeps my driver's license safe as well. But I'm glad BMW makes both. Finally, I envy you going to Utah; that's awesome. I want to do it some day on the bike, and revisit CO too (trailering my bike). Maybe next year. Enjoy it for me too.

I was curious about this, so I looked it up.  The rake on the two bikes is the same, 27.7*.  The trail is actually greater on the R, 4.9", as opposed to 4.4" on the RS.  I think that's because the fairing on the RS adds stability, but I'm not sure about that.  The wheelbase on the R may be slightly shorter, it's listed as 59.6", as the RS has been quoted at both 59.6" and 60.2".

 

Our ride to southern Utah was nice, at least the first couple of days.  We rode over Gooseberry Road, which heads south off of I-70 a few miles east of Salina.  It was ablaze with Fall colors.  Amazing road and highly recommended any time, but late September/early October is prime time.  We stayed at the Parry Lodge in Kanab, which hosted tons of movie stars and crews filming westerns back in the day.  It has literally hundreds of photos of these folks on the walls.  Second day we rode down to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon and back.  The Lefevre Overlook is very cool, south of Jacob Lake on 89A, climbing up onto the Kaibab Plateau.  You look back to the north, viewing the Grand Staircase NM.  The last day was unpleasant as a storm moved in overnight.  We rode the 300 miles home in ~45F weather, which yields a wind chill of ~30F, with light rain as we got further north.  It just wasn't that much fun, I much prefer back roads to Interstates.

 

Oh, and I bought Prestone Synthetic DOT 4 today.

[6speedTi]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:19 PM, JCtx said:

Thank you for posting that info. I'll do the brake bleed job this weekend with synthetic DOT4 then. And will try to kill off my tires in Cloudcroft either tomorrow or Friday.

DOT 4 is not synthetic based fluid.

Glycol-based (DOT 3, 4, 5.1) Do not mistaken DOT 5 for DOT 5.1 because they are a different base. 

 

https:/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

[6speedTi]

[Paddler]

22 minutes ago, 6speedTi said:

DOT 4 is not synthetic based fluid.

Glycol-based (DOT 3, 4, 5.1) Do not mistaken DOT 5 for DOT 5.1 because they are a different base. 

 

https:/en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

 

I was skeptical of the "synthetic" labelling on the Prestone fluid.  In a sense, all glycol-based brake fluid is synthetic.  It's nothing like the synthetic motor oils vs regular oil.

[JCtx]

2 hours ago, Paddler said:

The trail is actually greater on the R, 4.9", as opposed to 4.4" on the RS. RS has been quoted at both 59.6" and 60.2".  Oh, and I bought Prestone Synthetic DOT 4 today.

The wheelbase on the RS is longer, for better stability at high speeds... but at the cost of nimbleness, due to its lazier steering. No free lunch.  Ha ha. And that's a pretty good fluid, with higher boiling  point, and less hygroscopic than regular DOT4 fluid. And glad to hear you had a great trip in Utah. But yes, with the weather, you never know, but glad it was at least just one day:).

 

1 hour ago, 6speedTi said:

DOT 4 is not synthetic based fluid.

Yes, it is... but basically all brake fluids are synthetic, if you get technical. But the synthetic version is better(synthesized more), and a little less hygroscopic, while still fully compatible with regular DOT4 fluid, so the better option. You might be confusing silicon with synthetic, which is what the DOT5 is, like you mentioned.

[Paddler]

2 minutes ago, JCtx said:

The wheelbase on the RS is longer, for better stability at high speeds... but at the cost of nimbleness, due to its lazier steering. No free lunch.  Ha ha. And that's a pretty good fluid, with higher boiling  point, and less hygroscopic than regular DOT4 fluid. And glad to hear you had a great trip in Utah. But yes, with the weather, you never know, but glad it was at least just one day:).

 

Yes, it is. As I mentioned above, it has a higher boiling point and it's less hygroscopic than regular DOT4 fluid, so a bit better option. And it's fully compatible with regular DOT4 fluid. You might be confusing the DOT5 fluid which is silicon-based. And like you said, not compatible at all with DOT3, DOT4, and  DOT5.1.

It's not clear to me that 0.6" longer wheelbase makes all that much difference.  Also, the steering geometry of the RS is actually more aggressive than on the R, as stated above.  The question I have is whether the slightly longer wheelbase on the RS slows the steering more than the 0.5" longer trail on the R does.  I was told the reason my R1100R had a steering damper while other models didn't was because the models with fairings were more stable at speed.

[JCtx]

You got it wrong: The bike with the shorter wheelbase has more aggressive steering, and that's the R. And anybody who has ridden both will tell you it's noticeable, even though it doesn't look like much. But no sense in keep arguing this; just go ride one, and make your own judgment (if interested). And my bike has a factory Brembo steering damper (same  as front and rear brakes).

 

By the way, BMW has a 25% off on accessories going on now, with code 'PREBF23'. Can't access my emails now, but expires Nov  12, I believe. I'm thinking of ordering the touring cases, in case I ever need them, before they're not made for my bike anymore. And in white, to match my HP. Take care.

[Paddler]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I understand that a shorter wheelbase means more responsive steering.  And we know that less trail also increases responsiveness.  Given the RS has both a longer wheelbase but less trail it's not clear to me which factor dominates, if either. 

 

I won't be riding the R now, as I don't intend to buy one.  If I do in the future I'll wait for the R1300R.

[JCtx]

The numbers BMW throws make no sense, so I'm sure there's an error somewhere. If rake is the same (and I have my doubts it is), the shorter trail would have the shorter wheelbase... but that's NOT the case. So who knows what the real numbers are, but the R has the shorter wheelbase, and more aggressive steering, and that's the only fact we know for certain. It's immediately felt, but you'd only know it if you ride them back to back. Since there's no free lunch, the R has to be less stable than the RS, but at the modest speeds the Rs are capable of, I don't think it's a problem, especially since even the R already has a relatively long wheelbase, and both are fitted with a steering damper. And the R is simply not a high-speed bike by design. I don't know what's the top speed on both in the US, but I think the platform is limited to 143 mph. I got mine up to 120 or so, got there quickly, and felt rock stable (even in windy conditions), but don't have any intention of getting it any higher that that again. Ha ha. I like it feels a lot faster than you're actually going, and that was part of the reason I like nakeds (also zero turbulence/buffeting on my helmet). Both are great bikes, so glad BMW makes both.