Police radar

[Dingo55]

Hi all

Any/all help appreciated 

LSS

Got pulled over by the traffic police yesterday out for a Sunday ride ( 2 min from my icecream stop)

They were travelling towards me, lights on, pull up, they spin around and come in behind me

Shut the bike off, bike up on centre stand, helmet off

They wander up, introduce themselves, inform me that they have their body cams recording, then get to the punch line 

Allegedly clocked me at 123 km ph in a 110 km ph zone   

i suggested (politely) that they may be talking out of their derriere given that I had the cruise control set exactly on 110 km ph by the dash speedo

Didn't have the GPS in place at the time but know that 110 km ph on the dash equates to about 107 km ph on the GPS

So we spent a good few minutes back and forth one suggests I come back to their car to see the numbers for myself, which I do

So these 3 numbers on the dash mount unit

He explains 123 (my supposed speed) 75 ( I think) was their speed 

And a digital clock reading that if I remember correctly was showing about 1.45 elapsed time and counting (when I first saw it)

He explained what that was but I was a bit flustered by this time and didn't grasp what that was about ( any ideas??)

I remember thinking that waaaay more than 2 mins would have elapsed since they first 'clocked' me 

I'm later wondering why there wasn't an actual time that corresponded to the speed displayed 

Back to the bike and spent a good few minutes with some verbal argy bargy (knowing I was wasting oxygen) around the accuracy of their equipment as opposed to mine on the bike

Their continued default position was that me, the vehicle operator was responsible to ensure that the speedo was accurate

Any thoughts on 1. What the countdown clock relates to and

                               2. should there be a time readout that pertains to the actual time of the alleged infraction 

Appreciate any help

Cheers

Mark

PS I guess different radar systems are deployed around the world

This is in WA Oz  

 

 

[Lowndes]

Where??

[wbw6cos]

HERE

[Red]

I think you're going to have to rely on our OZ members to help sort out this one.  While radar operates the same around the globe, the data collected and the hardware that displays the data is likely a whole lot different down under.

[Skywagon]

Im not sure by car, but I can speak a little about the clock measurement in an airplane.  A couple of decades or so ago I was teaching some California Air Patrol how to fly a particular set of airplanes they had purchased.  Cessna 206's.  I learned some things from them too.  There were places on the highway where they had markers that were anywhere from 1/2 mile apart to 1mile apart.  They couldn't accurately shoot radar from the airplane due to cozine angles, but they would start the clock when the vehicle hit the starting marker and hit it again when it hit the end marker.  They knew that distance and would use it to calculate speed.  Clever but highly subjective to the observer to accurately start and finish at exactly the marked spot.  Being off by a few feet on either end could make the difference in calculated speed.  Most of the judges would chunk the ticket if challenged and the speeder knew enough and how to challenge the accuracy of the timing.

 

There are a few Law Enforcement Officers on this site that will probably know the answer to your question.

 

Your predicament is one of the reasons I always ride with my GPS with route tracking turned on.  You can look at the GPS data on your pc with BaseCamp and see your exact speed recorded at any given time.... Another story about that.

 

One of our BMW club members used that data to support his claim he wasn't speeding.  Since he used the GPS data in court, the judge said then all data on your GPS is discoverable.  The member protested but representing himself in court, he lost.  The judge said, well let's look at all your speed captured.  The initial stop was for 85 in a 70.  The judge discovered tracking on the same day and several other days of the member riding in excess of 100mph.  The judge gave the member the option of honoring the original ticket or be subject to past excursions.

[Hati]

Dingo55 you didn't say what bike you are riding. I assume a pre '21 shiftcam as my '21 RT is almost 10 km under indicated speed compared to GPS. I do have a former traffic cop as a riding friend and he told me that the WA cameras (fixed and mobile vehicle based) that take your photo are set 6 km over, irrelevant of the speed zone. I actually tested this earlier in the  year and doing exactly 5 km over the posted limit according to the GPS (and holding it steady for a few hundred meters before it) did not trigger a flash. This unfortunately does not apply to the highway patrol radars and handheld devices, that is discretion only.

 

The way I see it (and I am no expert, just a keen observer of other similar events with a known outcome) if you are sure you had your cruise set as you said, take it to court. The burden is on them to prove that you did the speed they claim, especially if you have a clean driving record. There is a specific lawyer who specialises in speeding fines here in Perth, but the name escapes me. Some Googling might help. Maybe Shane? I really don't know.

 

I think even without a lawyer you would have a good chance to beat the fine with a clean driving record. If you try this, go and take photos of the location as exact as you can make it from where you were, where they were and noting any obstacles around. On the other hand 13 km over is only 2 points and $200 (IIRC) fine, so may not be worth it. Good luck either way. 

[bimmers]

If it said elapsed time and was counting then it could be seconds from the time they opened and showed it to you, it could be the duration of the catch signal or whatever. Mentioning the data going back in time as forensics is a big risk with all the new Connected BMW rider info stored (in the cloud??) and on your device unless you delete it after each ride. 

 

It could be a nightmare for many if those rides would be obtainable for persecution of someone. 

Stick to safe riding so none of this is necessary to vent about......

[MikeB60]

1 hour ago, bimmers said:

Stick to safe riding so none of this is necessary to vent about.

Not sure how 8mph over the posted speed limit constitutes unsafe riding....

[bimmers]

It doesn't 

[Hati]

1 hour ago, bimmers said:

Mentioning the data going back in time as forensics is a big risk with all the new Connected BMW rider info stored (in the cloud??) and on your device unless you delete it after each ride. 

 

 

Ah, there is an idea... I doubt the existence of the app if I am correct with the bike's age. If I am not and indeed it was a '21 or newer RT, the Connected app could save your ass by showing it to the court, if there is no incriminating segment on it elsewhere.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, MikeB60 said:

Not sure how 8mph over the posted speed limit constitutes unsafe riding....

Evening Mike

 

I sounds like you haven't driven or ridden in Australia?

 

Every time I visit Australia  I have to quickly relearn they take their speed enforcement very seriously. 15 mph over in my area won't even get a look from the LEO's,  24 KM per hour over in AU is darn near a capital offense. 

 

You also learn very quickly to look in the other direction for oncoming traffic because they drive on the wrong side of the darn road.  

[Darbarian]

Valentine One

Don't leave home without it.

I fabricated a custom mount for my R1200RT-P. The only time it failed was the time I didn't turn it on because I was tired and intended a leisurely cruise home.  The hyped-up anti-biker kid-cop had a different idea about cruising speed than mine.  I paid for not turning on my Valentine... aka: being stupid.

 

[Dingo55]

Hi all

Thanks for the replies 

Always good to hear other's perspective on a subject

 

Wasn't intended to come across as a vent

Just some info to then ask a couple of questions

 

Dirtrider is correct about the degree that the force takes speeding seriously

I'll stand corrected on this but I think 30 kms ph over can be 28 days impounded with associated costs

Plus currently I think we are in a period of doubledown or more in that regard given we've had a series of fatal m/c crashes of late

Just recently rider and pillion died (at the scene I think) 

Car turning right across in front of them

Bike slams into the passenger side

Car driver walks away uninjured 

So you know there's a blitz on hence my use of the cruise control

 

  

 

Full respect to the blue family 

Wouldn't do that job for quids

But as we say respect is a two way street so when you have sworn officers standing on the side of the road lying knowing that there's no vision ( I mean before they came up to me with their bodycam on) to challenge their version of events and their word carries far more weight in court than yours then that respect is eroded

I appreciate that this is small fry stuff compared with what happens in other parts of the world and I'm eternally grateful that  I live where I do

 

Not sure about driving on the wrong side of the road but I know from experience that it can get very confusing

 

Just recently a local(ish) lad has ended up in the slammer in the States

As I understand it he's travelled through some single lane road works but failed to return to the correct side of the road for a considerable distance  (over 2kms I think) afterwards

Had a collision 

2 people died if I remember correctly 

I think he's currently out on bail 

Not sure how that will pan out

 

You see that all the time over here 

Tourists  turn off the main roads to visit a tourist spot 

4 hours later come back to the main road intersection and blissfully unawares turn onto the wrong side of the highway 

Cheers

Stay safe

Mark

 

 

 

[JCtx]

I never ride with anything on my bike (it's a naked one), and will keep it that way... but sometimes I wonder if my V1 would be better off on the bike, than sitting in my garage. Ha ha. But I'd have to find a solution to see or hear it in my helmet, which seems like a lot of work, so will just keep paying attention like I always do, and hope for the best. The last time I got pulled over was over a decade and a half ago. Hope it stays that way. Ha ha. But if not, I'd apply for defensive driving again, so ticket is expunge from my record. You can do that once a year, I believe.

[Hati]

11 hours ago, dirtrider said:

they drive on the wrong side of the darn road

 

 

Well, that is debateable. Just think about this for a  minute: every driving side in the world, be it left or right hand drive, has right hand rule (give way to your right), correct?

 

It is only the right hand drive areas where you can look to your right unobstructed You guys on the left side need to look past your passengers. That on its own justifies why right hand drive makes more sense. I have lived in both jurisdictions, although did spend more time on the right side of the road.

 

 

9 hours ago, Darbarian said:

Valentine One

Don't leave home without it.

 

Um yeah, you would be dragged through the courts for that. It is now illegal to have detectors in every state down here.

[Dingo55]

Hi all

 

Hati  my bikes are a 2015 1200rt and a 2020 1250rt

I haven't experienced anything like the discrepancy between the GPS and the speedo that you have 

3 kms ph max

 

If you still have contact with your ex traffic officer and you feel to I would love to know what the readings I was shown actually mean as in my two original questions

 

These guys said that they had a clear 'hit' on me as there were no other vehicles between them and me 

That is pure bollocks 

Not that I can prove it but there was a vehicle in front of the police car (oh for a camera)

This happened on a long straight stretch of road 

When I first saw the line of  3 or 4 cars coming towards me my first instinct was to move to the left as it appeared that the second car (white police car ) was coming out to overtake the car in front of them 

Maybe they needed to come out to get a 'clean hit' on the oncoming vehicle (does that sound feasible?)   

Can't explain why the police car was only doing 75 kms ph on their readout travelling in a110kms ph zone

 

All opinions appreciated 

Cheers

Mark

 

[9Mary7]

With moving Speed Radar, a vehicle traveling in front of the patrol vehicle can cause a reflection, although it is rare. The radar operator is supposed to verify their displayed speed against the vehicle's speedometer to eliminate locking an erroneous target reading. That might explain why they pulled out slightly to get a clearer view of your m/c.

I do not know what equipment they were using so I can't comment on the timing display; I can only speculate that it is part of a Time/Distance calculator unrelated to the moving radar.

The issue with why they were going below the limit probably has to due with the other traffics' "cop" paranoia.

[JCtx]

If they were behind another vehicle, they were obviously limited by that vehicle's speed. It's not uncommon for people to slow WAY down when they see a police car behind them, although I don't do that (I just set cruise to the speed limit). If you have a similar option to the US, which is taking 'defensive driving', I'd just do that, which is what I do (if it's an option). Not worth trying to fight it if there are cheaper and less time-consuming alternatives IMO. But if you want to fight it, it'd probably be best to hire a lawyer, also a widely done practice here, where the lawyer's first approach is to postpone and postpone hearings, until cop doesn't show up, and ticket is dismissed. And if that doesn't work, they try to make a deal on your behalf, by asking for equipment calibration, and other tactics like that, to put doubt on the accuracy of the alleged speed. But it's hard to win when it's just your word against the cop's in there. Best of luck.

[Twisties]

I suspect the elapsed time is the period over which your speed was monitored.  In other words, 123 kph over a 1.45 s period.  

 

Is it possible they clocked another vehicle?  

[Hati]

11 hours ago, Dingo55 said:

Hati  my bikes are a 2015 1200rt and a 2020 1250rt

I haven't experienced anything like the discrepancy between the GPS and the speedo that you have 

3 kms ph max

 

That's why I asked. My '13 1200R is like that, almost spot on right through the range.

 

11 hours ago, Dingo55 said:

If you still have contact with your ex traffic officer and you feel to I would love to know what the readings I was shown actually mean as in my two original questions

 

Sure. I'll text him as he lives down in Pinjarra and I live NoR.  He did most of his traffic time on a bike, no idea if he spent time in the patrol car, but I'll ask.

[Wayne Johnson]

A Quote on FB Officer : Do you know why i pulled you over? Motorcyclist: Because I let you!! Try that procedure next time!        

[profbodryak]

On 10/4/2023 at 5:46 AM, Dingo55 said:

Hi all

 

Hati  my bikes are a 2015 1200rt and a 2020 1250rt

I haven't experienced anything like the discrepancy between the GPS and the speedo that you have 

3 kms ph max

 

If you still have contact with your ex traffic officer and you feel to I would love to know what the readings I was shown actually mean as in my two original questions

 

These guys said that they had a clear 'hit' on me as there were no other vehicles between them and me 

That is pure bollocks 

Not that I can prove it but there was a vehicle in front of the police car (oh for a camera)

This happened on a long straight stretch of road 

When I first saw the line of  3 or 4 cars coming towards me my first instinct was to move to the left as it appeared that the second car (white police car ) was coming out to overtake the car in front of them 

Maybe they needed to come out to get a 'clean hit' on the oncoming vehicle (does that sound feasible?)   

Can't explain why the police car was only doing 75 kms ph on their readout travelling in a110kms ph zone

 

All opinions appreciated 

Cheers

Mark

 

They advised you that you were being recorded on their bodycams. Did their cameras capture a vehicle that was in front of you? You won't find out until you take it to court but just a thought. 

 

That time can't be from the moment they first clocked you because I would imagine it took them longer to turn around, get out of the car, have a conversation with you and then you walked to their car. 

[Hati]

6 hours ago, profbodryak said:

Did their cameras capture a vehicle that was in front of you?

 

They recorded the out of car conversation, not in-car footage.

 

On 10/4/2023 at 5:46 PM, Dingo55 said:

If you still have contact with your ex traffic officer and you feel to I would love to know what the readings I was shown actually mean as in my two original questions

 

I did ask. Unfortunately he is out for longer than these radars have been used for, so could not give me any info on them. He was as puzzled about the timer you speak of as I was.

[Dingo55]

Hi all  

Appreciate the help

Guess I'll just chalk this one up to the GFC's having to get their monthly quotas up ( yes it is a thing)

 

Hati

Thanks for chasing that up

Some years back an officer from traffic came to moonlight for the company i was then working for (two up interstate express coach driving)

He had ended up in traffic after being thrown under a bus after an incident that got a fair bit of publicity at the time (Today it would be known as going viral)

Dealing with a little toerag but in the words from a Bob Dylan song

" I guess he used a little too much force"

Should have been given a medal in my book

 

Anyhow I guess you could say he was more than a little disgruntled so was more than happy to spill the beans on how things worked in regard to speed infringements

How the police could get whatever speed they wanted to hit the next driver with to display up on the machine, how to potentially talk your way out of a ticket or if you got one how to deal with it 

And the name of a lawyer who only dealt with speeding tickets who had an over 80% success rate

 

Intend to run with the GPS on permanently from here on and looking at a camera to continually record the dash/ GPS readout ( ideas appreciated)

Cheers

Mark