F35 Mishap

[Twisties]

I'm not a pilot.  But I'm surprised that a pilot would eject from a plane that was apparently capable of flying on autopilot for some distance.  All speculation now, but if you had to speculate:  What would justify the ejection?  How did the transponder fail?  

[Mike]

Any guess at this point would be a guess, but there have been other instances where aircraft have flown considerable distances after the aircrew lost the ability to control them. Sometimes the cause of a crash is apparent almost immediately, but there are also times where it takes months to unravel what actually happened.

[Skywagon]

We probably won't ever know....but...if there was smoke in cockpit, a fire warning, control failure...a couple of things that come to mind.  Heck he may have hit the ejection button by accident.  I'm not sure how many steps and how hard/easy it is to create an eject.  Perhaps he hit a drone

 

Side note..I may have told this story before.  When I was doing my multi-engine check ride with the FAA examiner, on the takeoff roll out of Meacham the cockpit filled almost instantly with white smoke.  Had we been airborne it might not have ended well.  Turns out a map light wire shorted against the frame and literally billowed smoke.  The plane was 24volts so you can produce heat pretty fast.  We slammed the brakes on, shut down the engines and jumped out of the plane on the runway.

 

 

[TEWKS]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

Perhaps he hit a drone

 My drone never left Massachusetts airspace over the weekend! 
 

I’m not a pilot but, I’ve followed aircraft stories such as this throughout the years. Seem like most ejections in those events, the pilots tend to stay with the aircraft probably longer than they should to make sure the wreckage doesn’t harm ground dwellers. 
 

It appears the pilot didn’t do that in this case obviously, but why? We may never know, especially if the pilot had an itchy crotch  and accidentally bumped the handle. Don’t think it works like that but stranger things have happened I’m sure. 

[TSConver]

[Paul De]

The under reported/recognized part of the story was that there was a request for the public to help visually sight the jet.  That suggests that jet was in stealth mode, or is innately stealthy by design and was quite effective at obscuring it’s path even for our own military.  Dang that is some pretty cool technology.  Go team USA!

 

I know almost zero about how stealth is accomplished, but back in 1980 when I was gradumikating from university, one of my friends was matriculating with an EE degree. He had an interview with a defense contractor and got lots of questions about how he might  combine high speed computer processing to manage microwave signals….we figured it had to be something about radar jamming.  Team USA must of been working the stealth challenge for quite a while before it got reduced to practice. I remember that conversation in that dive bar near campus like it was yesterday.

[TSConver]

1 hour ago, Paul De said:

The under reported/recognized part of the story was that there was a request for the public to help visually sight the jet.  That suggests that jet was in stealth mode, or is innately stealthy by design and was quite effective at obscuring it’s path even for our own military.  Dang that is some pretty cool technology.  Go team USA!

 

I know almost zero about how stealth is accomplished, but back in 1980 when I was gradumikating from university, one of my friends was matriculating with an EE degree. He had an interview with a defense contractor and got lots of questions about how he might  combine high speed computer processing to manage microwave signals….we figured it had to be something about radar jamming.  Team USA must of been working the stealth challenge for quite a while before it got reduced to practice. I remember that conversation in that dive bar near campus like it was yesterday.

 

Most stealth is about radar reflecting surfaces and designing the surfaces so they do not reflect it back at the emitter and then radar absorbing materials to reduce the amount of total reflection.  Along with reduce emissions form the plane itself.  If it actively jammed then they would just have to triangulate on the source of the jamming.

[Paul De]

I think the concept they were exploring with my friend at the time was the system would function a little like noise cancelling headphones do. The system would emit a counter wave that would cancel out the radar wave. Essentially the system would nullify the original wave.  Surely it would need supper fast and wide bandwidth processing power.  None of which were really feasible in those days without a room sized Cray Super Computer.  Of course it was just the musings of some young guys with way too many beers between them.

[Twisties]

The plot thickens:

 

Quote

The F-35B is unique compared to other models, said Dan Grazier, a senior defense policy fellow at the Project on Government Oversight, a nonprofit federal watchdog.

"The F-35B has an autoeject function," Grazier said. "I'm curious to know if it ejected him involuntarily."

Quote

J.J. Gertler, a senior analyst at Teal Group, a defense consulting firm, said the rocket motors in the pilot's ejection seat could have been so powerful, they "cooked the electronics, the wires, cut off power to the transponder, among other things" in the cockpit.

Berke said the transponder may not have been turned on in the first place because it was flying with a lead F-35, which would have had its transponder on. The second jet's would be off to prevent extra noise from interfering with the approach controller.

"That's just normal procedure," Berke said.

 

More speculation, but as pointed out in the article, nobody was hurt.  So that's good.

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/questions-mount-us-fighter-jet-went-missing-rcna105876

[Skywagon]

When flying in formation...you only have the lead plane with transponder on; as the article says it messes with ATC screens even with discreet codes.  I've flown a lot of formation and only the lead bird communicates with ATC unless they actually call on someone other than the lead plane.  No talky to squacky. 

[Rhino]

Whatever the reason ends up being for the pilot ejecting probably won't change one of the consequences.  My beloved USMC infantry just got a new Lt. this week!

[ESokoloff]

On 9/21/2023 at 9:08 AM, Rhino said:

Whatever the reason ends up being for the pilot ejecting probably won't change one of the consequences.  My beloved USMC infantry just got a new Lt. this week!

Maybe, maybe not…

Too early to speculate but Ward gives it a go.   (Long drawn out video alert) 

 

[MT Wallet]

I heard a small snippet of audio of the pilot claiming that the plane stopped responding to controls, i.e. his input wasn't controlling the plane. Plausable? They're all fly by wire aren't they? A little scary if this happens across the whole fleet of aircraft. Would this system be hackable?

[TEWKS]

19 minutes ago, MT Wallet said:

I heard a small snippet of audio of the pilot claiming that the plane stopped responding to controls, i.e. his input wasn't controlling the plane. Plausable? They're all fly by wire aren't they? A little scary if this happens across the whole fleet of aircraft. Would this system be hackable?

I’m not a Navy pilot but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night…  Let’s think about this, the aircraft isn’t on fire, it’s flying straight and level, you have plenty of airspace between you and the ground.  Work the problem a little longer.

 

edit..

my assumptions are just that, so excuse me for not having the facts before posting.

[ESokoloff]

1 hour ago, TEWKS said:

I’m not a Navy pilot but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night…  Let’s think about this, the aircraft isn’t on fire, it’s flying straight and level, you have plenty of airspace between you and the ground.  Work the problem a little longer.

If you had suffered through Wards presentation you would have seen this…

 

 

Its the instrumentation of an F-35B & unlike it’s analog & somewhat mechanical oriented gauges & controls of previous aircraft, this one relies 100% on the flow of electrons to be able to operate. 
Per Ward, sounds plausible that the effected aircraft got hit by lightning & if the screen stopped working & your caught in the weather @ 2,000’ & disoriented (low visibility & no instrumentation) maybe it’s time to part company with the offending party & fend for yourself (bail out). 
Once the pilot bailed, the aircraft auto stabilized & flew till it ran out of fuel (was the theory). 

[Red]

the aircraft also has an auto eject feature.  Just maybe the pilot was not a willing participant in leaving?

[TEWKS]

7 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

If you had suffered through Wards presentation you would have seen this…

 

 

Its the instrumentation of an F-35B & unlike 

Not that unlike… I’ve got this! 

 

[Rougarou]

911 Call

 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2023/09/22/im-not-sure-where-the-airplane-is-hear-f-35-pilots-911-call/?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tw_mct

 

Pilot states that he ejected.

[Twisties]

4 hours ago, Rougarou said:

911 Call

 

https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2023/09/22/im-not-sure-where-the-airplane-is-hear-f-35-pilots-911-call/?utm_campaign=snd-autopilot&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=tw_mct

 

Pilot states that he ejected.

And, he clearly believes the plane would have crashed right away.  Interesting.

[Twisties]

12 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

If you had suffered through Wards presentation you would have seen this…

I made it about 45 seconds.  Could not even believe that droning was gonna go on 48 minutes.  Thank you for summarizing, Eric.

[MikeB60]

14 hours ago, TEWKS said:

I’m not a Navy pilot but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night…  Let’s think about this, the aircraft isn’t on fire, it’s flying straight and level, you have plenty of airspace between you and the ground.  Work the problem a little longer.

 

edit..

my assumptions are just that, so excuse me for not having the facts before posting.

No way is a US Military pilot going to punch out of an aircraft that is capable of flight. Many times they continue to work the emergency procedures past the point of where they should have punched out. We can speculate what happened but rest assured that the Naval Safety Command will get to the bottom of what and why this happened. I always get a chuckle out of the "expert analysis" of Army helicopter mishaps by YouTube contributors on mishaps that my office is investigating. 

[Rougarou]

I don't think 2000ft is alot of airspace at a lawndart's speed.

 

[TEWKS]

58 minutes ago, MikeB60 said:

No way is a US Military pilot going to punch out of an aircraft that is capable of flight. Many times they continue to work the emergency procedures past the point of where they should have punched out. We can speculate what happened but rest assured that the Naval Safety Command will get to the bottom of what and why this happened. I always get a chuckle out of the "expert analysis" of Army helicopter mishaps by YouTube contributors on mishaps that my office is investigating. 

That’s kinda what I was questioning. From a bystander’s perspective, I mentioned most military pilots tend to stay in the aircraft far too long. 2000 Ft AGL and 60 miles distance gives you a little bit of time.

 

.

48 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I don't think 2000ft is alot of airspace at a lawndart's speed

I would agree with that if the jet was headed for the ground but it few on for sixty more miles. And yeah, I realize it wasn’t flying at typical highway speeds. 

 

Ok, the mathematicians are going to prove me wrong with the numbers. 400 MPH (guess) will move that aircraft 60 miles in a very short time. 

[Skywagon]

To Mike's point no Naval Aviator would eject unless they had to....listen to John Ramstead talk about his scariest moment when he should have ejected and didn't.  I stopped the video where he tells this story.

 

 

[Rougarou]

53 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

 

Ok, the mathematicians are going to prove me wrong with the numbers. 400 MPH (guess) will move that aircraft 60 miles in a very short time. 

 

IF he was only doing 400.  The math says it'd take nine minutes to travel 60 miles at 400mph.

 

I'ma wait until the actual analysis of the event happens.

 

 

[ESokoloff]

1 hour ago, TEWKS said:

I would agree with that if the jet was headed for the ground but it few on for sixty more miles.

If the pilot had no reference to the horizon (lack of visibility &/or instrumentation) how do you expect him to know which way the plane is heading? 
At your estimated speed of 400mph & a last known altitude of 2,000’, how long would it take for that plane to auger in if heading straight down? 

[TEWKS]

6 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

IF he was only doing 400.  The math says it'd take nine minutes to travel 60 miles at 400mph.

 

I'ma wait until the actual analysis of the event happens.

 

 

Then all we’d have to debate is oil viscosities and tire tread depths. Boring! 

[TEWKS]

2 minutes ago, ESokoloff said:

If the pilot had no reference to the horizon (lack of visibility &/or instrumentation) how do you expect him to know which way the plane is heading? 
At your estimated speed of 400mph & a last known altitude of 2,000’, how long would it take for that plane to auger in if heading straight down? 

Those are all unknowns, haven’t heard if they / he was in the clouds. I wholeheartedly agree if he lost reference of the plane’s attitude at that altitude and no stick control it was time to go.

[Skywagon]

I cant tell from reports exactly where he was in airspace.  It was reported as something like 60 miles of Charleston....I think...

 

Interesting on the 400kts...  Maybe Brad or other military can assist on this as I don't know military restrictions in FAA airspace.  It looks like just using a 60nm ring around Charleston he would have been in class E or higher (C,D,B) airspace.  If I am correct he would have been speed limited by the FAA to 250kts in class E, and 200kts in the other type air spaces at his altitude.  Below are a couple of links so you can see approximate airspace in Skyvector and an FAA Chart on airspace.  I still doubt the public will ever know what happened exactly....not sure we need to.  He jumped for a reason.  I doubt he thought he had any other choice.

 

As for possible electrical failure...I can only share my GA experience.  Most sophisticated airplanes/jets have multiple electrical systems/generators, etc.  Most flight instruments have batteries in them to give 30 minutes at least if you were to lose all electrical.  Even if....and I seriously doubt it, the F35 lost 3-4-5, who knows how many electrical sources, the likelihood there was battery sourced power is really high in my uneducated opinion.  Even my little bush plane had battery back up in the gyro's if for some reason I lost all other power.

 

SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts

 

 

Controlled Airspace (faa.gov)

 

[Twisties]

41 minutes ago, TEWKS said:

Then all we’d have to debate is oil viscosities and tire tread depths. Boring! 

We could go back to gas pump dead volumes, ya' know.  :-)

[Twisties]

I have one other observation as a result of the 911 call.  The 911 operator was utterly unprepared for this circumstance.  I would have thought there would be clear protocols for who to call, civilian and/or military and for civilian authorities to be contacting FAA, Military and initiating the appropriate responses.  Pilot is clearly concerned such is not proceeding.  911 Op seems utterly confused, asking the same things she's already been told, and not  grasping the situation.  It's especially concerning given how close to a military airport this occurred. I hope any after-action recommendations address this.   

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, TEWKS said:

Then all we’d have to debate is oil viscosities and tire tread depths. Boring! 

 

17 minutes ago, Twisties said:

We could go back to gas pump dead volumes, ya' know.  :-)

 

Ya, but we absolutely know 32psi is better when running rotella with a Schuberth while breathing nitrogen through a 87AKI soaked balaclava while rolling on Shinko's in the front and Kenda in the rear.

[9Mary7]

21 hours ago, ESokoloff said:

the pilot bailed

Or we could call it "Going Analog"

[Rougarou]