Camshaft and follower failure

[GrantG]

I have a BMWR 1200 RS

The exhaust camshaft on the right side failed at 159,000 kms, the failure was only on one lobe of that camshaft, and it’s related follower. All 3 other camshafts are still fine. The bike is the last of the 1200’s before the new variable valve model.

Has anyone else suffered a similar failure. To me it looks like a hardening issue.

 

 

[Boxflyer]

@GrantG

This is not a common problem, but it does happen.  It was addressed by BMW as a problem with the DLC (Diamond Like Coating) on the followers as well as a possible issue with the thickness of the hardening of the surface of the cam lobes.

The resolution from BMW was to replace ALL the camshafts and then use a replacement Cam Follower on ALL the followers on the engine.

Here's a reference to the directive.  https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10194314-9999.pdf

 

Whenever you do Valve Clearance checks that allow you to remove the cams, inspection of the contact face of the follower for any sign of loss of the DLC (it's the black coating) is cause for concern.  

Soon after the DLC is gone, typically, the surface of the cam lobe starts to show wear.  The DLC is supposed to act like little mountains that keeps a better film of oil between the face of the cam and the follower, and when it has be worn away, or is flaking off, then the direct metal of the follower face on the cam lobe can easily wear thru the thin hardened surface treatment on the cam lobe.

 

My experience is that on the side with the single cam lobe damage, ALL the cams need to be replaced...along with all the followers and Adjusting Plates (shims).

This is because the metal that has been worn off the lobe on that side circulates within the head more before it gets flushed to the sump and then picked up where it can get filtered out.  I've seen significant wear on ALL the followers and shims, but it's not so obvious on the lobes, but you can usually "catch a fingernail" on the wear pattern on the face of the lobes.

 

If you follow the directive listed above, and only replace the cam followers with the updated followers and DO NOT replace the cams, it will cause accelerated wear on new contacts of both the cam lobe and the followers...not a good situation.

I recommend keeping original wear pattern components together if at all possible...so if you buy a set of salvage heads to harvest the cams, keep the followers in their exact relationship with the lobes they have been in contact with...if you buy NEW cams from BMW, then use the upgraded followers as listed in the BMW directive above.

 

This is not an inexpensive repair.  Just the parts for the direct discussion, not trying to determine labor costs...

The followers are a little more than $150 each...x8= $1200

The Cams are about $650 each...x4=$2600

Then all new shims at about $9.30 each x8=$75

So, just cams, followers, and shims are upwards of $3875

 

I have done this repair on the WetHead by only replacing ALL the components on one side of the engine, because they were all worn by the extra exposure to the metal on that side.  It takes about 2hrs.

I also have a set of salvage heads in hand incase I need to harvest cams again.

 

Now that you do all this component replacement...you get to use the complete set of Cam Timing Tools...

1)8mm TDC Locking Pin

2) Cam Chain Tensioner

3) Cam Alignment Jig

 

Hope this helps.

Brad

 

Edited March 24 by Boxflyer
Removed "WIDER", the OLD and NEW followers are both 8.0mm wide.

[Lemans]

It's been a while since I've read about a cam failure on the various forums. GrantG's bike failed at nearly 100,000 miles. It seems that there is no milage range that will guarantee against the problem. 800 to 100K miles? Seems none of the WC 1200"s are safe. Has BMW stepped up to offer any consideration for out-of-warranty costs? This particular case is at the extreme milage as far as I know, but have others been assisted for earlier failures?

[Boxflyer]

Today I did a full 12k Service on a 2014 RT that was built in the fall of 2013...very early production.  The bike has 118k miles.

The bike has had a tough life, but the cams and followers were almost perfect...they looked better than my 2016RT at 48k miles. (That bike is in the scrap yard somewhere as of 2yrs ago at 78k)

 

As is the case with about 90% of the bikes I do service on, the cams needed timed, the timing reluctor was off, and 3 valves were at the open limit.  7 of the 8 valves got adjusted to my personal target clearance of 0.12mm for the intake and 0.36mm for the exhaust....1 exhaust valve was left at 0.37mm.

 

I think oil change interval has a lot to do with the wear on the cams...I'm leaning towards a shorter OCI just for cam lobe and follower life.

 

Brad

[wbw6cos]

Brad, when you say the cams needed timed, the timing reluctor was off, does that mean they were like that in the first place, or over time they get that was out of the norm?  

 

Thanks!!

[Boxflyer]

This is my first look at this bike with these high number of miles...I doubt that the cams have ever been checked for timing...my comments were mostly about some early WetHeads and some high mileage bikes are still doing just fine and not showing much of any cam wear.

[Stiggy]

13 hours ago, Boxflyer said:

Today I did a full 12k Service on a 2014 RT that was built in the fall of 2013...very early production.  The bike has 118k miles.

The bike has had a tough life, but the cams and followers were almost perfect...they looked better than my 2016RT at 48k miles. (That bike is in the scrap yard somewhere as of 2yrs ago at 78k)

 

As is the case with about 90% of the bikes I do service on, the cams needed timed, the timing reluctor was off, and 3 valves were at the open limit.  7 of the 8 valves got adjusted to my personal target clearance of 0.12mm for the intake and 0.36mm for the exhaust....1 exhaust valve was left at 0.37mm.

 

I think oil change interval has a lot to do with the wear on the cams...I'm leaning towards a shorter OCI just for cam lobe and follower life.

 

Brad

 

If the owner of that 2014 is still available, it would be interesting to learn if he followed the 6,000 mile oil change interval, or decided to change it more frequently. (I'm still of the opinion (hunch) that there might  might have been a bad batch of cams and followers produced given the wide mileage range of failures that we're finding, and not oil usage, but it would be good to know.)

[Boxflyer]

He is still available... I need him to return to my shop for wheel bearing/seal/spacer replacement and full SpeedBleeder install along with a Boxflyer Brake Job...(a lot more extensive than pad replacement and line flush).  He needs new front rotors as well, but will see if he wants to do that work.

 

The owner of this bike reported that on the ride home yesterday that the bike ran MUCH smoother than before after Cam Timing/Valve Clearance setting, and Engine Adaptive Value Resets...part of my normal 12k Service.

 

He's the 3rd owner, and says that the BMW service advisor from the selling dealership let him view the service records on the computer (no printed data as evidence) and it showed more frequent Oil Change Intervals, closer to 3k-4k miles.

 

I've been promoting the opinion that it's not that expensive to reduce the OCI (oil change interval) to 3k-4k miles for the sole benefit of Cam Lobe/Follower life.

(120k miles at 6k oil/filter change at owner changed costs of about $60 equals $1200.  So about $1800--$2400 if you changed the oil/filter between 3k-4k miles for the same 120k life of the bike)

 

[92Merc]

1 hour ago, Boxflyer said:

... and Engine Adaptive Value Resets...part of my normal 12k Service.

 

 

Can you elaborate on that one?  I haven't heard of the Engine Adaptive Value resets. 

 

Reason I ask is my 2015 RT has started having some popping on decel.  I had the valves checked and cam chain timing adjusted 6k miles ago.  It just started I'd say in the past 600 miles.  I ran multiple tanks from different stations making sure it wasn't fuel.  It's not horrible, but it never used to do this.

I have a GS911.  I'm assuming that's what you're using.  Thanks for any info.  You're a great asset to the group.

[Boxflyer]

@92Merc Hello,

I go to GS-911/Select Vehicle/R-Series/R12xx/Engine Controller to enter Service Functions.

 

There are 5 choices of procedures to reset prior learned values/data stored in the BMSX Controller.

I DO NOT do anything with the first choice (--Reset DTC/ASC)

I DO select the bold button for each of the next 4 systems on the bike to be Reset/Relearned.

RESET MIXTURE

RESET THROTTLE VALVE

RESET TWIST GRIP

RESET TRANSMISSION

 

Each one of these procedures has clearly written instructions as to the exact steps to be followed to perform the reset of the stored values and EXACT INSTRUCTIONS to be followed after all 4 of these modules are complete.

Most notably, multiple on screen instructions to TURN IGNITION OFF/TURN IGNITION ON.  This is pretty straight forward and is part of flashing the values into the module being worked on.

 

There are a couple of modules that just have some of the physical modules of the bike running full throw, so you will hear some whirring/buzzing...all normal.

 

The TWIST GRIP only needs to follow the instructions closely to OPEN the TWIST GRIP full OPEN until the prompt on the screen instructs you to CLOSE the TWIST GRIP to IDLE.

 

2 of the modules have a NOTE that advise you that for completion after the software has RESET, the RELEARN will require that the engine is run until the FAN CYCLES ON...I let the fan complete the cooling of the radiator and shut off before turning the ignition off so that the CANBUS can timeout properly.

 

Lastly, the RESET TRANSMISSION has a note that informs you that the bike should be run in each gear for 10 SECONDS to complete the RELEARN.  I simply put the bike on the center stand and stand beside the bike selecting gears 1 through 6 while counting to 10 slowly, then counting to 10 again going back down from 6 through to 1...finally going back into Neutral waiting for the engine to warm up to the FAN ON TEMP.

While doing the RESET TRANSMISSION it helps immensely to keep the revs up to about 1500-2000 in each gear to keep the backlash in the driveshaft to the Final Drive to a minimum...the wheel speed should not really ever get over 35MPH, so it's not a speed test!

 

It will take some time for a complete set of parameters to be learned for the bike to run it's best, but maybe only 1 or 2 drive cycles with an accompanying cool down and warm up.

 

The real reason that I feel that these ADAPTIVE VALUE RESETS are so effective is that after doing an adjustment to the Cam Timing and adjusting the Camshaft Timing Trigger, in addition to slightly changing the volumetric efficiency with any Valve Shims, the BMSX Controller is much better at correctly controlling the engine performance.

 

I hope this explanation makes sense...

Brad

 

 

 

[92Merc]

It does make a lot of sense.  I'm off to the Black Hills this week.  I'll be back on Friday, just in time for Labor day weekend.  I'll see if I can get to doing these resets.

 

Thanks again.

[LAF]

Yes, every 6K I run everything except the transmission reset.

 

If I would need to do a SAP reset it is live, on the road.  I have reset at least 7 other bikes this way and all have improved SAP according to the riders.  A back country road where you can cruise all gears, and then cut the engine, let it sit till everything goes off, then restart and enjoy. 

 

It takes some planning to get that last two gears in the proper RPM range.  We hop a highway to get those last two, then have a spot in shade on the exit ramp to chop and let it sit.

 

A GS-911 is worth it's weight in gold for sure.  I have,  but do not use MotorScan, but I would think it can accomplish most of these tasks also?

 

Really nervous about cam issues in the late model 1200's, as I have one!  We don't see a lot compared to bikes sold, but enough.  While others have lived through the ordeal, mentally and financially,  Not sure I would ever trust my bike again.  Thinking about that DLC and flaked cam material running around "polishing" stuff, I would never trust the bike.

[ian408]

On 8/25/2023 at 3:41 AM, Boxflyer said:

@GrantG

This is not a common problem, but it does happen.  It was addressed by BMW as a problem with the DLC (Diamond Like Coating) on the followers as well as a possible issue with the thickness of the hardening of the surface of the cam lobes.

The resolution from BMW was to replace ALL the camshafts and then use a replacement Cam Follower on ALL the followers on the engine.

Here's a reference to the directive.  https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2021/MC-10194314-9999.pdf

 

Whenever you do Valve Clearance checks that allow you to remove the cams, inspection of the contact face of the follower for any sign of loss of the DLC (it's the black coating) is cause for concern.  

Soon after the DLC is gone, typically, the surface of the cam lobe starts to show wear.  The DLC is supposed to act like little mountains that keeps a better film of oil between the face of the cam and the follower, and when it has be worn away, or is flaking off, then the direct metal of the follower face on the cam lobe can easily wear thru the thin hardened surface treatment on the cam lobe.

 

My experience is that on the side with the single cam lobe damage, ALL the cams need to be replaced...along with all the followers and Adjusting Plates (shims).

This is because the metal that has been worn off the lobe on that side circulates within the head more before it gets flushed to the sump and then picked up where it can get filtered out.  I've seen significant wear on ALL the followers and shims, but it's not so obvious on the lobes, but you can usually "catch a fingernail" on the wear pattern on the face of the lobes.

 

If you follow the directive listed above, and only replace the cam followers with the updated and WIDER contact face followers and DO NOT replace the cams, it will cause accelerated wear on new contacts of both the cam lobe and the followers...not a good situation.

I recommend keeping original wear pattern components together if at all possible...so if you buy a set of salvage heads to harvest the cams, keep the followers in their exact relationship with the lobes they have been in contact with...if you buy NEW cams from BMW, then use the upgraded followers as listed in the BMW directive above.

 

This is not an inexpensive repair.  Just the parts for the direct discussion, not trying to determine labor costs...

The followers are a little more than $150 each...x8= $1200

The Cams are about $650 each...x4=$2600

Then all new shims at about $9.30 each x8=$75

So, just cams, followers, and shims are upwards of $3875

 

I have done this repair on the WetHead by only replacing ALL the components on one side of the engine, because they were all worn by the extra exposure to the metal on that side.  It takes about 2hrs.

I also have a set of salvage heads in hand incase I need to harvest cams again.

 

Now that you do all this component replacement...you get to use the complete set of Cam Timing Tools...

1)8mm TDC Locking Pin

2) Cam Chain Tensioner

3) Cam Alignment Jig

 

Hope this helps.

Brad

 

I wouldn't call it uncommon. We ran through a bunch of bikes with DLC issues. Early on, BMW denied claims calling it a "wear  issue". One customer sent the cams back to a metallurgist for testing then submitted the results to BMW. It was enough to get them to pay for the repair and cover the testing. As far as model year, hard to say because a lot depended on where the engine parts came from.

 

My advice would be to replace all of them. 

[dmsantam]

Great thread on this issue. I have one question - why is it that the worn cam lobes cause a ticking sound, that gets louder as the cam lobe wears? Since the wear is all on the "pointed" side of the lobe, because that's when there is spring pressure pressing the cam against the follower, what is causing this ticking? I can't figure that out. cheers

[Boxflyer]

The "ticking" sound with a worn cam is not really from the high lift point of the cam lobe itself, but the concurrent wear of the follower.

This is now the same sound you hear from normal cams and followers that have larger than "optimum" clearance.

 

The transition from the base circle to the flat face of the cam lobe where the lift starts is where the "tick" sound comes from, and if the follower is worn away as with a worn lobe peak, that transition is pretty large and the increase in sound is there...subtle, but still it sounds like a slightly loose clearance normal cam/follower.

 

Hope I described that OK...it's hard to do without pictures.

Brad 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon dmsantam

 

To add a bit more detail to what Brad posted above___ 

 

Mechanical lifter camshafts have what are called clearance ramps on both the lift side & the closing side of the cam lobes.

 

Those clearance ramps gradually allow the lifter to take up the valve lash clearance between the cam base circle & the actual start of the cam lobe lift flank. (think of pushing a moving vehicle with another, you don't just run up & slam into it but you gradually decrease the distance until light contact, then you give it a good hearty push).

 

Mechanical lifter camshafts with properly designed clearance ramps (take-up ramps) allows the valve lash to be smoothly taken up, then once it gets to zero clearance it THEN gives the lifter a good hearty push (lift).

 

Same on the closing side, a properly designed mechanical-lifter cam lobe allows the valve to close without allowing the valve spring to slam it closed with the possibility of valve bounce.

 

Hydraulic lifter cam lobes do not have that gradual lift or closing clearance ramp as the valve lifter runs at zero clearance so no lash to smoothly remove before the actual lift starts.  

 

 

The factory mechanical-lifter valve lash clearance is specified to have the lifter be at zero clearance when the aggressive-lift part of the cam lobe hits it.

 

Now if you have camshaft wear that alters the base circle, or alters the clearance ramp, or doesn't allow the valve lash to be smoothly taken up before the actual aggressive lift starts then you get valve train noise.

 

If the cam wear is on the base circle or on the early part of the clearance ramp then the valve can start opening too early on the clearance ramp & that allows valve leakage before the actual lift starts but not enough lift to flow much (this more effects exhaust valve due to the high heat involved)

 

I don’t know if this is what is happening on the BMW valve train  but cam lobe wear on mechanical lifter automotive engines can become very loud if cam lobe wear effects the base circle just prior to the clearance ramp, or effects the actual clearance ramp profile, or changes the profile of the lifting flank as then the lifter isn’t at zero clearance at the start of the aggressive point of the lobe lift.

 

If cam lobe wear allows valve opening on the clearance ramp you can eventually get valve burning/leaking. If cam lobe wear allows the lifter to still have some lash when the aggressive part of the cam lobe contacts it then you can have noisy valve operation.

[dmsantam]

great description boxflyer and dirtrider. thanks to you both for explaining. my dad's 2015 1200rs had noisy valves and I thought the clearance may be way out. turned out that the left hand intake camshaft (and likely the followers although haven't confirmed yet) is worn slightly, with about 1mm of wear. the other cams have no wear that can be caught with a fingernail. 

 

I am just now trying to source parts to fix it and the tools required. 

 

cheers

[Boxflyer]

My point is that it's not the cam lobe wear on the peak of the lobe that causes the excess clearance, it's the worn follower that can't smoothly conform from the base circle to the lift of the cam.

 

If there was a way that the lobe was the only thing that got a wear groove in it, it would remain quiet...but that damage almost always results in lost material from the contact point of the follower...that's where the noise is coming from.

 

 

[dmsantam]

I guess the only way to find out for sure whether the noise is from the ramp down wear of the cam lobe or the follower wear is to change one and not the other temporarily and start it up 😁

[Boxflyer]

I don't think it's worth the effort.

 

Once you get the new parts, install everything and get it set correctly, then ride and enjoy.

[Bernie]

Here are a few pictures that show the wear on the followers.

The excess noises did keep the deer from crossing over in front of my bike. But my dealer and his tech thought the noises were Normal. 

[dmsantam]

1 minute ago, Bernie said:

Here are a few pictures that show the wear on the followers.

The excess noises did keep the deer from crossing over in front of my bike. But my dealer and his tech thought the noises were Normal. 

 

Great photos, thanks. The dealers always say the noises are "normal". My dad's sounded terrible, and they said the same thing. 

 

 

[dmsantam]

I have ordered a new intake camshaft left hand side, 2 new followers (called rockers on the parts diagram), and the tools required to time the camshafts. 

Once i remove the other camshafts (which are not damaged) I will check the wear on the followers, and if there is any wear, replace them too. 

 

The cam and followers are available in stock locally, but unfortunately the tools are all backordered from Germany, except for the tool to lock in TDC. Stuff from Germany generally takes 4-6 weeks according to the dealer. I am in Australia. 

[wbw6cos]

Dang, Bernie.  If they looked like that on my bike, I would probably trade it in, or something.   

[Stiggy]

1 hour ago, dmsantam said:

I have ordered a new intake camshaft left hand side, 2 new followers (called rockers on the parts diagram), and the tools required to time the camshafts. 

Once i remove the other camshafts (which are not damaged) I will check the wear on the followers, and if there is any wear, replace them too. 

 

The cam and followers are available in stock locally, but unfortunately the tools are all backordered from Germany, except for the tool to lock in TDC. Stuff from Germany generally takes 4-6 weeks according to the dealer. I am in Australia. 

 

Excessive wear on one side but not the other indicates a metallurgical failure, not anything caused by operating the motorcycle. Luck of the draw as to what batch of cams and followers we might get on our bikes is not acceptable. (Not that we can do much about it.)

 

I'm betting that the vast percentage of motors out there will never see that kind of wear as above.

[Bernie]

Most likely the excess wear was caused by me using the wrong body position while cornering. 

I have been told from a highly respected authority that’s the reason for the wear. 

Happy Turkey Day!

@dmsantam the recommended procedure is to replace all 4 camshafts and all 8 rocker arms. The rocker arms have a black coating. If the coating comes off, the rocker arm starts to wear. After that change replace engine oil and filter. I had one the right side replaced. 8K miles later when I checked everything again, the left side did the same thing. 

[dmsantam]

Hi Bernie, 

 

Quote

the recommended procedure is to replace all 4 camshafts and all 8 rocker arms

 

My dad doesn't ride much, and I'm hoping to keep costs to a minimum for him. He does around 3,000km a year! So I'm going to replace the 2 rockers and worn camshaft, remove the other non-worn camshafts and check those rockers. if those rockers show any signs of wear, i will replace them.

 

Is there any issue in keeping the existing unworn camshafts with new rockers if those rockers are worn? 

 

cheers,

[Boxflyer]

14 hours ago, dmsantam said:

Is there any issue in keeping the existing unworn camshafts with new rockers if those rockers are worn? 

 

Parts that have constant direct contact with another, will develop a pattern with each other...therefore it's standard "best practice" to keep these parts in their original assembly positions if at all possible.

If you either mix up the position of worn parts, or introduce a new surface to an existing worn surface, it will accelerate wear on one or both of the parts until they achieve some kind of parity with regard to the contact faces.

 

At some point, you have to accept a degree of dissimilar wear patterns, even if you replace ALL the CAMS and ALL the FOLLOWERS.  That new back side of the follower will now most likely be pressing on a new "Adjusting Plate" (shim), but the shim itself will be face to face with whatever wear pattern is on the tip of the valve itself.  

 

What I have found in doing several of these CAM/FOLLOWER replacements is that if you only have obvious visual wear (failure) of one lobe, that because of the excess metal introduced into that valve cover, the other components on that side of the head will ALL show accelerated wear.

This is because the metal slurry caused by the wear of both the Cam Lobe and the Follower, now take a long, long time to flush from the valve cover back down into the sump where it can be drawn into the pump, then run thru the oil filter.

 

Trying to reduce repair costs by only replacing a few components might work for a number of miles, but will ultimately reveal the continued damage caused by the exposure to the metal generated from the first worn lobe/follower combination.

 

Good Luck!

Brad 

 

[dmsantam]

The BMW directive (posted earlier by Boxflyer) is to replace all the followers with the new design and to only change the camshafts if they are damaged. Why would BMW recommend this course of action if mating the new followers to the existing unworn camshaft was a problem? I spoke to a couple of BMW mechanics and they both recommend changing ALL the followers to the new design, and replacing the camshafts if they have any damage that can be caught with a fingernail.

 

That is the approach I am taking, so I guess I shall be somewhat of a guinea pig with my dad's bike, and will report back in the future. I expect to have all the tools in a couple of weeks (it's been a long wait!)

 

I also discovered that Dan Cata is producing the cam timing tool and TDC tool, and has plenty of stock. He doesn't produce the CCT tool though, so you still need to go through BMW for that. 

 

https://www.spankraft.com/product/r1200gs-rt-rs-r-lcliquid-cooled-2013-onwards-series-engine-special-tools/

 

Dan Cata also recommended replacing all the followers, and only damaged camshafts. 

 

cheers

[JCtx]

I'm a bit confused by this issue, since I read reports of even the new follower design also causing cam wear, so not sure how much of the problem is solved by that. Aren't the cams supposed to be the stronger part vs the followers? At least that's what BMW should have done, to only have defective followers to worry about. Now is BOTH parts, and the cams are much more expensive. Anyway, the changeover to the new followers supposedly happen back in 2019, for what I read, so that means my early 2020 R1250R could still have old ones, since it was built 6/19. So need to open up the valve covers to check which followers it has, and if there's any damage to the cams/followers, before warranty expires at the end of September. Apparently there are no parts to replace (gaskets, etc), so might do it pretty soon. Only have 4K miles, so probably not likely to find damage, even if parts are defective. We'll see. The followers should be all black, even where they're hit by the cams, right? And lobes obviously perfectly smooth all over, especially the tallest area. Thank you.

[dmsantam]

7 minutes ago, JCtx said:

I'm a bit confused by this issue, since I read reports of even the new follower design also causing cam wear, so not sure how much of the problem is solved by that. Aren't the cams supposed to be the stronger part vs the followers? At least that's what BMW should have done, to only have defective followers to worry about. Now is BOTH parts, and the cams are much more expensive. Anyway, the changeover to the new followers supposedly happen back in 2019, for what I read, so that means my early 2020 R1250R could be affected, since it was built 6/19. So need to open up the valve covers to check which followers my bike has, and if there's any damage to the cams, before warranty expires at the end of September. Apparently there are no parts to replace (gaskets, etc), so might do it pretty soon. Only have 4K miles, so probably not likely to find damage, even if parts are defective. We'll see.

 

I haven't heard of the new followers causing cam wear. But maybe I'm misinformed about that. 

 

The cams are hardened, but it is the diamond coating (DLC) on the followers that apparently has little "mountains" and keeps the oil on it that ensures the cams aren't damaged. 

 

Checking which followers your bike has is a good idea. You may need the one oring that sits behind the cam holder if you remove the Cams. But I think you can tell without removing the cams: 

 

[JCtx]

Thank you. Need to check on that, to order them first, if needed. Remember reading that nothing was needed for my bike, but that was before I found out it potentially has the older followers, so didn't pay too much attention. Ha ha. And same thing with the old vs new follower cam damage. It was for sure a 1250, but could have been one with old followers, so you still might be correct...and I hope you are. Ha ha. Finally, 1250s came out in 2019 here, so it's possible all 2020s already have the new followers, but I'll find out soon enough. Or is it possible to find out which followers I have with my VIN? And if they're bad, would I find any damage with less than 4K miles? If not, then no sense in opening it up now. Oh, and followers need to remain black even where cams hit them to be good, correct? Thanks again for your help.

[dmsantam]

3 minutes ago, JCtx said:

Thank you. Need to check on that, to order them first, if needed. Remember reading that nothing was needed for my bike, but that was before I found out it potentially has the older followers, so didn't pay too much attention. Ha ha. And same thing with the old vs new follower cam damage. It was for sure a 1250, but could have been one with old followers, so you still might be correct...and I hope you are. Ha ha. Finally, 1250s came out in 2019 here, so it's possible all 2020s already have the new followers, but I'll find out soon enough. Or is it possible to find out which followers I have with my VIN? And if they're bad, would I find any damage with less than 4K miles? If not, then no sense in opening it up now. Oh, and followers need to remain black even where cams hit them to be good, correct? Thanks again for your help.

 

I don't know if you can find out by VIN. Perhaps BMW can tell. You can find damage at all kinds of miles it seems, but lower mileage is less likely. I believe that the less cold starts you have, the longer miles you can go, but that's just my opinion based on the few I've seen. 

 

Yes, the followers will be black if they're not damaged. Boxflyer posted some great pictures above of worn followers. The black is the DLC that wears off, and then the cams get damaged in short order. 

[GrantG]

I tried to get BMW to supply parts.

That was a waste of time as if BMW had really cared they would have recalled all the possible faulty bikes and had them checked. But no they didn’t recall and what is worse they never notified new owners. On that basis why would I want to deal with a shit company like BMW.

I sold my bike and vowed NEVER to buy from a Company who don’t give a shit about their customers.

[JCtx]

23 hours ago, dmsantam said:

 

I don't know if you can find out by VIN. Perhaps BMW can tell.

Asked MAXbmw, and the parts guy said no. So why do they bother to ask for your VIN, when ordering parts? Hmmm. Since I couldn't check the followers for wear unless I remove the cams (which I wouldn't do), I could only check if I have the new or old type followers, and possibly cam damage (if lobes are pointing the right way). But at only 3K+ miles, and very few cold starts, since my riding trips are 200 to 300 miles each day, it'd be very unlikely to find any damage, so not sure if I should bother opening up my engine. Thoughts?

[dmsantam]

14 minutes ago, JCtx said:

Asked MAXbmw, and the parts guy said no. So why do they bother to ask for your VIN, when ordering parts? Hmmm. Since I couldn't check the followers for wear unless I remove the cams (which I wouldn't do), I could only check if I have the new or old type followers, and possibly cam damage (if lobes are pointing the right way). But at only 3K+ miles, and very few cold starts, since my riding trips are 200 to 300 miles each day, it'd be very unlikely to find any damage, so not sure if I should bother opening up my engine. Thoughts?

 

I would put the bike on the side stand, open up the right side valve cover and have a quick look to see which followers you have. And then regardless of the answer, ride more and worry less :-)

[Bernie]

The new style followers where installed on 2019 and newer boxer motors, including the Shiftcam motors, so if you have a R or RS or a GS or a GSA or a RT Shfitcam boxer motor, you will have the newer cam followers and you should immediately go and ride the bike and stop worrying about nothing. 

[JCtx]

Hey, I'm not worried. Somebody reported a 1250 shiftcam with old followers, but based on your comments, it was probably an early 2019, meaning my early 2020 should have the new ones for sure then. I just wanted to check it if it was possible to have old followers, since my warranty is expiring soon. But I'm not going to bother with that anymore. And yes, I plan to ride my bike more this year, but unfortunately cancer has its own plans, and some times they don't line up with mine. Ha ha. But I've been able to ride my cousin's bike at the dragon and other places, so at least I've been riding more than the mileage on my bike suggests.

[Crando]

I have a 2016 R1200 GSA that I just bought Dec 23 and then started reading about the followers and the DLC coating issue.  This thread is one of the best threads I have read on the issue so far.  I completed my 25k mile service last month and the cams were fine....thought I was in the clear....then started reading about failures at 60k, 80k, etc.  NOTE:  I am riding my bike and enjoying it.  In parallel to my joy, I wanted to make sure I am being a good steward of this information.  I am trying to see if there is a reasonable mitigation.

I have read some white papers on DLC coatings, and the tribological properties of DLC coatings.  The DLC coating is not only for hardening properties but also the friction reduction (tribological properties)...I am just reading this stuff, trying to understand it.

https://www.intechopen.com/chapters/74304

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334094215_FAILURE_OF_DIAMOND-LIKE_CARBON_DLC_COATINGS_IN_AUTOMOBILE_ENGINES_-A_REVIEW

 

Seems one recommendation is to change the oil every 3k miles.  That seems like a plan for now.  I wish we had an exact root cause from BMW on the OTC failure...coating thickness, bad bond with the substrate, chemical incompatibility that started breaking down the DLC tribological properties, insufficient lubrication of followers...filling the oil to mid-glass window vs fill to the top of the site glass...not rocking the bike side to side before starting the bike....

 

Then the precursor to this event is a ticking sound....aren't boxer engines known for being noisy.  What is an acceptable dBa level ticking for my bike?  Anywhoo...can't wait to ride my ticking time bomb this weekend.

[Stiggy]

My 2017 RT sounds and runs the same as when I bought the bike at 6,000 miles 18 months ago. I checked valve lash and adjusted cam timing at 12,000 and everything looked good.

Now approaching 18,000, I'm due for fresh oil and since it's a 10 minute 'peek' I'll pull the valve cover and take a look when I dump the oil.

As this is (still) a rare occurrence, I anticipate no issues. Optimism, right?

 

(As I'm a Blackstone Lab fan, I suppose I could send a sample of oil out for a $35 analysis and see if I've got any metal floating around in there, but for now I will wait for symptoms first.)

[Geekmaster]

@Stiggy, yes optimism is in order.  I just did nearly the exact same thing with my 2014 RT.  Valve clearances checked just before 12k and when I changed the oil, etc. at 17+k last month I pulled the left valve cover to check for wear and all was good. I picked the left one since that one sounded louder than the right one.  It's a fairly quick check for peace of mind.

[Johnyyvee]

Messaged deleted by me. Johnnyvee 

Edited March 24 by Johnyyvee
Question answered in previous discussions

[Boxflyer]

You need to read this thread from the beginning, both opinions as to replacing just followers, or cams and followers has been repeatedly debated...

 

I'm not picking on you, but this happens all the time with any subject across just about every forum on the WWW.

 

Brad