Stranded Again!!!!!

[tnsen]

Hello Oilheads......well I have a problem...hope somebody here can give me some input...my beloved 1997 BMW R850r left me stranded again ...I have had this bike 12 years and love it..really never had a real problem with it...things started last fall..left my Doctors office..bike started hard and sputtered  to a stop in about 50 feet...I tried to restart the bike but it was not having it...lights worked...turned over...no fire...ALSO..no fuel pump 2 second humm...wrecker bill 100.00 $...the bike sat home in the garage for a few days and started right up...new fuel pump relay and fuse just for good measure....Enter spring 2023...left work bike went 5 miles  sputtered to a stop...tried to restart..same symptoms..plenty of power...turns over...no fuel pump humm when the sidestand  goes up...wrecker bill 150.00 $..got the bike home...sat for a while...bike starts right up..hmmmm...ok gave the sidestand switch a good checking over...and a new fuel pump (Beemer Boneyard)...4 months later...as in yesterday..after my job, bike starts up rather hard...went 50 feet sputters to an end..same thing..lights, turns over, no start, no humm from fuel pump when the sidestand goes up...ok getting old here....as i said, new fuel pump relay, new pump,new fuse..and yes when I replaced the pump I checked the ground wire for continuity...sooooo what am i missing?...just fyi, the last 2 times bike failed it was really hot here in Michigan, when I got to work this morning (drove my car) I stopped and the bike started right up..purred like a kitten...my plan is to go to my shop Saturday morning when its cooler and try to ride the 16 miles home with the wife following just in case.......so recap, 3 failures in 12 months with the same symptoms...this is killing me...any ideas.....Tom

[John Ranalletta]

Had a Datsun 260Z with same symptoms.  After lots of time & $, discovered a plugged fuel filter.  When left undriven, material inside the filter would "fall away" from the filter element allowing enough fuel to flow to run for a while.  Fuel moving thru the filter sucked the gunk up to the filter element blocking fuel flow.  Hope your issue is this simple.  Good luck.

[Skywagon]

DR will be along soon and will have some expert diagnostics to help you zero in on. 
 

Nothing worse than transportation you can’t trust. 

[Lowndes]

HES on an 850??

 

Dirtrider will know exactly how to sort it.

[Jim Moore]

I'd throw a HES in there if it hasn't been done already. 

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, tnsen said:

Hello Oilheads......well I have a problem...hope somebody here can give me some input...my beloved 1997 BMW R850r left me stranded again ...I have had this bike 12 years and love it..really never had a real problem with it...things started last fall..left my Doctors office..bike started hard and sputtered  to a stop in about 50 feet...I tried to restart the bike but it was not having it...lights worked...turned over...no fire...ALSO..no fuel pump 2 second humm...wrecker bill 100.00 $...the bike sat home in the garage for a few days and started right up...new fuel pump relay and fuse just for good measure....Enter spring 2023...left work bike went 5 miles  sputtered to a stop...tried to restart..same symptoms..plenty of power...turns over...no fuel pump humm when the sidestand  goes up...wrecker bill 150.00 $..got the bike home...sat for a while...bike starts right up..hmmmm...ok gave the sidestand switch a good checking over...and a new fuel pump (Beemer Boneyard)...4 months later...as in yesterday..after my job, bike starts up rather hard...went 50 feet sputters to an end..same thing..lights, turns over, no start, no humm from fuel pump when the sidestand goes up...ok getting old here....as i said, new fuel pump relay, new pump,new fuse..and yes when I replaced the pump I checked the ground wire for continuity...sooooo what am i missing?...just fyi, the last 2 times bike failed it was really hot here in Michigan, when I got to work this morning (drove my car) I stopped and the bike started right up..purred like a kitten...my plan is to go to my shop Saturday morning when its cooler and try to ride the 16 miles home with the wife following just in case.......so recap, 3 failures in 12 months with the same symptoms...this is killing me...any ideas.....Tom

Morning  tnsen

 

Actually I don't know what is wrong without more info from you. 

 

It doesn't sound like a plugged fuel filter but that is not a 100% guarantee, typically plugged fuel filters will not prevent the fuel pump from whirring. In fact they typically get louder as the pump is working harder.

 

It sure could be the HES (Hall Effect Sensor)  as those can at times can act, or cause, a total quit with no restart but can act somewhat normal after the motorcycle sits & dries out.

 

If all your engine quits with no immediate restart involved riding in the rain or washing the motorcycle just before the problem showed up then, yes, the HES would be something look into. 

 

On an HES problem that  will usually show up in the form of an erratic tachometer so that is something to keep in mind (does your 850R have a tachometer?)  The tac will usually start acting erratically just before the total engine quit & can go crazy with just the key-ON engine & not running. 

 

To find your problem you will probably have to ride it until it quits again then quickly check for a spark then if you have a spark use a NOID light & check for a fuel injector pulse. 

 

You might also try wiggling the handlebars back & forth with it idling to see if that effects the engine staying running as the R bikes were somewhat prone to breaking a wire in the wire harness between the handlebars & the frame (right near the steering neck close to a zip tie). 

 

There was an old BMW service bulletin on HES pigtail wire retaining clip (under the front belt cover)  snapping off then allowing the HES pigtail to rub or even contact the belt (I'm not sure if your 850 was included as it was just a small number of motorcycles but might be something to look at)

 

You will probably need to fully verify the fuel pump is not running as being the root of your quit as that helps point a finger on what to look at. Remember the fuel pump ONLY runs for about 2 seconds at key-on then doesn't run again until the engine is cranking or running. In fact the pump won't always run right after an engine stall at next (pre-start)  key-on until it is off for a short while (so pay attention to how this works).  

 

What I have done in the past on similar (hard to find) engine quits is to rig up small 12v panel lights to the  fuel pump 12v & to the fuel injector 12v then see if those are actually involved in the engine quit.

 

I have also seen (but very few) Motronic (fueling computer) issues that acted somewhat like you are experiencing. (this is almost impossible to diagnose without a substitute known-good Motronic to swap in.  

[tnsen]

Morning Gentlemen, I just got the bike home  under its own power, it sat at my workplace since my breakdown and it fired right up (I had a feeling it would)..ok a few tidbits, the fuel filter was replaced when the new pump went in in the spring, No Tachometer however when I tried to restart last Wednesday my emergency flashers came on for a few seconds...its like , ...what the ??..no recent rain or washing of the bike as its always under my carport and under a cover .  I just started the bike and wiggled the handlebars...no hiccup's,. and yes I am familiar  with the fuel pump waiting to have the key cycle back to off b4 a restart humm....thing is, the bike never quits while its conveniently at home where all my tools are..I wish it would just quit and be done with it so I can troubleshoot..... Now...about that  H.E.S...even b4 I started this post that was in the back of my mind, my Manual (Hanes), says nothing about the Hall Effect Sensor,( unless I am missing it)..Somebody on a You Tube video said at about 70,000 miles they go bad  , soo my Beemer has almost exactly 64,000  so its time...question, would the Sensor interrupt power( or ground) to the pump ?.. I have a nice man cave with all the tools and a lift , I wont be able to get to it for a few days, its a beautiful weekend here in West Michigan, and there is a craft beer festival (Burning Foot) today...so ill be busy today..hahah...Sidenote  I really take care of this bike, valve adjust, upgraded cam chain tensioner, regular oil changes , ect ect...I had a beautiful Corbin Seat with nice red accent that matches the color and makes the bike look like a million, a few people have asked me  " is that brand new",?... nope, its 26 years old lol....I have heard about a guy who rewires the sensors anybody know who he is ?...would it be better to just spring for a new 1 ?...ill do whatever is best for the bike and my piece of mind, I think they are about 180.00$ from Beemer Boneyard...whatever happened to Bike Bandit ?....a big thank you for replies...ill update as I progress into this ... Tom 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, tnsen said:

Morning Gentlemen, I just got the bike home  under its own power, it sat at my workplace since my breakdown and it fired right up (I had a feeling it would)..ok a few tidbits, the fuel filter was replaced when the new pump went in in the spring, No Tachometer however when I tried to restart last Wednesday my emergency flashers came on for a few seconds...its like , ...what the ??..no recent rain or washing of the bike as its always under my carport and under a cover .  I just started the bike and wiggled the handlebars...no hiccup's,. and yes I am familiar  with the fuel pump waiting to have the key cycle back to off b4 a restart humm....thing is, the bike never quits while its conveniently at home where all my tools are..I wish it would just quit and be done with it so I can troubleshoot..... Now...about that  H.E.S...even b4 I started this post that was in the back of my mind, my Manual (Hanes), says nothing about the Hall Effect Sensor,( unless I am missing it)..Somebody on a You Tube video said at about 70,000 miles they go bad  , soo my Beemer has almost exactly 64,000  so its time...question, would the Sensor interrupt power( or ground) to the pump ?.. I have a nice man cave with all the tools and a lift , I wont be able to get to it for a few days, its a beautiful weekend here in West Michigan, and there is a craft beer festival (Burning Foot) today...so ill be busy today..hahah...Sidenote  I really take care of this bike, valve adjust, upgraded cam chain tensioner, regular oil changes , ect ect...I had a beautiful Corbin Seat with nice red accent that matches the color and makes the bike look like a million, a few people have asked me  " is that brand new",?... nope, its 26 years old lol....I have heard about a guy who rewires the sensors anybody know who he is ?...would it be better to just spring for a new 1 ?...ill do whatever is best for the bike and my piece of mind, I think they are about 180.00$ from Beemer Boneyard...whatever happened to Bike Bandit ?....a big thank you for replies...ill update as I progress into this ... Tom 

Afternoon Tom 

 

I'm not sure what the Haynes manual calls it but BMW technically calls it an "ignition sensor".

 

The HES (IGNITION SENSOR) doesn't mysteriously go bad at 70,000 miles, actually the sensor itself seldom if ever goes bad. It is the wiring pigtail that goes bad, after a lot of heat cycles & time the HES pigtail wire insulation degrades then falls off the wires exposing bare wiring, or at least the insulation cracks enough to allow moisture to get in & allow cross-talk between the wires. 

 

Actually the 1150 bikes were a lot better then than the earlier 1100 bikes as far a HES failures go. 

 

If your bike wasn't washed or ridden in the rain then a failed HES would move down my list of probabilities. Not that it couldn't fail dry but not nearly as likely as if it failed wet. 

 

The HES repair guy you want is GS Addict, he does a superb job (    arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca  ) give him an E-Mail. He is in Canada so follow his instructions (exactly) on how to mail it to him without paying duty or import tax. 

 

 

The HES does effect fuel pump run (after initial key-on pump run)---  When you first turn the key ON the Motronic (fueling computer) controls the fuel pump relay & runs the pump for about 2 seconds, then the pump shuts down.  THEN, when the starter  actually starts cranking the HES starts sending both injection & ignition pulses (signals) to the Motronic, once the Motronic sees the HES pulses it turns the fuel pump back on.

Once the engine is actually running the continuous HES pulses tell the Motronic to keep the fuel pump on. 

 

Anybody installed a new alternator belt lately? If so was the bottom of the alternator pried on to help attain belt tension? If so it is easy to crush the HES wires.

 

Do you get any type of whooshing sound, or a difficult to open fuel filler cap after riding the motorcycle for distance? If so then suspect a plugged fuel tank vent, or more likely a plugged emission Evap canister if that hasn't been removed already.

 

You might also check the fuel that is in your fuel tank, if there is water in the fuel it can sometimes allow a cold start & a ride but you can get a sudden stall if it gets a big gulp of gasoline/water. They usually won't restart but after sitting for a while the spark plugs dry off from engine heat  & the  water separates from the gasoline then drops to the bottom of the fuel tank. That then allow another cold start then runs until a hard stop or hard lean, then it gets another gulp of gasoline water then stalls again.      

 

 

   

 

[SDCRJohn]

On 8/25/2023 at 7:52 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning  tnsen

 

Actually I don't know what is wrong without more info from you. 

 

It doesn't sound like a plugged fuel filter but that is not a 100% guarantee, typically plugged fuel filters will not prevent the fuel pump from whirring. In fact they typically get louder as the pump is working harder.

 

It sure could be the HES (Hall Effect Sensor)  as those can at times can act, or cause, a total quit with no restart but can act somewhat normal after the motorcycle sits & dries out.

 

If all your engine quits with no immediate restart involved riding in the rain or washing the motorcycle just before the problem showed up then, yes, the HES would be something look into. 

 

On an HES problem that  will usually show up in the form of an erratic tachometer so that is something to keep in mind (does your 850R have a tachometer?)  The tac will usually start acting erratically just before the total engine quit & can go crazy with just the key-ON engine & not running. 

 

To find your problem you will probably have to ride it until it quits again then quickly check for a spark then if you have a spark use a NOID light & check for a fuel injector pulse. 

 

You might also try wiggling the handlebars back & forth with it idling to see if that effects the engine staying running as the R bikes were somewhat prone to breaking a wire in the wire harness between the handlebars & the frame (right near the steering neck close to a zip tie). 

 

There was an old BMW service bulletin on HES pigtail wire retaining clip (under the front belt cover)  snapping off then allowing the HES pigtail to rub or even contact the belt (I'm not sure if your 850 was included as it was just a small number of motorcycles but might be something to look at)

 

You will probably need to fully verify the fuel pump is not running as being the root of your quit as that helps point a finger on what to look at. Remember the fuel pump ONLY runs for about 2 seconds at key-on then doesn't run again until the engine is cranking or running. In fact the pump won't always run right after an engine stall at next (pre-start)  key-on until it is off for a short while (so pay attention to how this works).  

 

What I have done in the past on similar (hard to find) engine quits is to rig up small 12v panel lights to the  fuel pump 12v & to the fuel injector 12v then see if those are actually involved in the engine quit.

 

I have also seen (but very few) Motronic (fueling computer) issues that acted somewhat like you are experiencing. (this is almost impossible to diagnose without a substitute known-good Motronic to swap in.  
 

my money is on a break in the ignition wire, under the steering head. Mine broke on my 1100, due to tight wrap, and symptoms were identival. The wires are hear each other when they break, and make sporadic contact. New BMW sub harness was about $110., ten years ago. Have no idea what they charge today. Some folks just solder the existing wires.

 

[tnsen]

well ok then....Here is what i have, my Beloved Beemer is up on the lift, tank off, front alternator cover off, I gave the wiring pigtail from my Hall Effect a good eyeball .. the OUTER wiring insulating is in great shape all the way to the big plug connector, question , could the inner wires all be corroded up and split ? I find  this hard to believe, but if I have to pull it and slice it open I will,  I am pretty confident there is no water in the tank (this would not prevent power to my fuel pump anyway) as I have been using Ethanol free (Rec Fuel) since my new pump install this spring, and my tank vent  is not plugged, soooo shall I  yank the Hall Effect anyway and have it rewired ? giving the bikes age and mileage this sounds like a good idea 64,000...in the next few days I am going to give my sidestand switch a good looking at again....I did this last stranding so i am confident it will cycle ok...maybe I should just button it back all up and hope for the best or .. hope it fails for good so I can troubleshoot ....Tom 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, tnsen said:

well ok then....Here is what i have, my Beloved Beemer is up on the lift, tank off, front alternator cover off, I gave the wiring pigtail from my Hall Effect a good eyeball .. the OUTER wiring insulating is in great shape all the way to the big plug connector, question , could the inner wires all be corroded up and split ? I find  this hard to believe, but if I have to pull it and slice it open I will,  I am pretty confident there is no water in the tank (this would not prevent power to my fuel pump anyway) as I have been using Ethanol free (Rec Fuel) since my new pump install this spring, and my tank vent  is not plugged, soooo shall I  yank the Hall Effect anyway and have it rewired ? giving the bikes age and mileage this sounds like a good idea 64,000...in the next few days I am going to give my sidestand switch a good looking at again....I did this last stranding so i am confident it will cycle ok...maybe I should just button it back all up and hope for the best or .. hope it fails for good so I can troubleshoot ....Tom 

Afternoon tnsen

 

It doesn't sound like your HES wiring is bad but you can't always tell by the outer ends. It is probably a good idea to have your HES rewired as the HES wiring does degrade over time with heat cycles so if not now than probably later anyhow. 

 

As for the "Ethanol free (Rec Fuel)", that is worse for purging water than E-10 as the alcohol in the E-10 absorbs water then you burn it with the gasoline.  As long as there isn't more water than the alcohol can absorb it will usually just burn it, if too much water then about the same as Ethanol free (Rec Fuel). (you just don't want to store the motorcycle with an E-10/water mix as that is BAD with a capital B).

 

With Ethanol free (Rec Fuel) the water in the fuel typically drops to the bottom of the tank & stays there until it gets sucked into the fuel pump intake, that usually gives you an engine stall.  

[RK Ryder]

Had a similar problem years ago with my ‘98R1100RT. The wiring on the side stand was the problem. The HES was ruled out as I had previously had It rewired by GS Addict. 

[Lowndes]

Tnsen - As Dirtrider said above, the outer sheath will look perfect and the individual wires inside will look like this - see below.  The plastic insulation just crumbles at the slightest touch.  All the softeners in the plastic have been cooked out by the engine heat.  This connector (other end of the pigtail) was inside a formerly soft plastic shroud under the tank.  I had to cut the shroud open to release the connector.

 

Like RK Ryder above, I sent my HES to GSAddict in Canada.  He does EXCELLENT work, new heat tolerant wire, new connector, new sheath, new grommets, perfect solder joints, quick turnaround, and uses your HES sensors (they are bulletproof) and plate.  Use a scratch mark to index the plate before you remove it from the engine and follow his instructions EXACTLY to send the HES to him.  USPS is the best and least $ way and the PO will have the little form to fill out.  Canadian customs can be VERY picky.

 

His contact info is: Reto Camenisch, 

arbcon@sunshinecoast.ca - or - r259reto@gmail.com

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

My index mark (red circle), his green check marks checking and verifying the work:

 

Back side.  VERY nice work with the shrink tube:

 

[tnsen]

WELL OK THEN... I didn't  send out my H.E.S. to GS Addict as advised...(prolly should of done that)...anyway, I opted to buy a new one from Euro Motolectrics...I watched all the you tube videos..read my manual...followed the instructions exactly...new HES is installed, I also purchased the L.E.D pigtail that you plug in ...problem..key on...light on (test light)..the light will stay on wherever I rotate the plate.....all the way CCW..or CW....now if I turn key off...and rotate plate all the way CCW...key on ... light will be off...until I rotate plate CW...a small amount CW...light will come on...but will not go off when I rotate it back CCW...light stays on...unless I  key off..then rotate plate back CCW...then key back on...light is off...soooo whats up with that ??...unless somebody has a an easy solution I think I will just key off and on until find the spot where it is on the cusp of being off....bike is on the lift...engine is locked at top dead center...Thoughts....Tom 

[tnsen]

FYI..the wires on my Sensor did not look real bad...a few cracks...it was time 

[dirtrider]

14 hours ago, tnsen said:

WELL OK THEN... I didn't  send out my H.E.S. to GS Addict as advised...(prolly should of done that)...anyway, I opted to buy a new one from Euro Motolectrics...I watched all the you tube videos..read my manual...followed the instructions exactly...new HES is installed, I also purchased the L.E.D pigtail that you plug in ...problem..key on...light on (test light)..the light will stay on wherever I rotate the plate.....all the way CCW..or CW....now if I turn key off...and rotate plate all the way CCW...key on ... light will be off...until I rotate plate CW...a small amount CW...light will come on...but will not go off when I rotate it back CCW...light stays on...unless I  key off..then rotate plate back CCW...then key back on...light is off...soooo whats up with that ??...unless somebody has a an easy solution I think I will just key off and on until find the spot where it is on the cusp of being off....bike is on the lift...engine is locked at top dead center...Thoughts....Tom 

Afternoon tnsen

 

Did you get the notched cup back on correctly? Manual says to glue the cup to the pulley before installation. 

 

On your LED tester, I have no idea on what you bought so I don't know how it reads but if it is triggering on the leading edge of the timing cup then once it triggers it needs to go past the solid part again before it will trigger again. 

 

You can also turn the key on (do not start) then turn the crankshaft & listen for the fuel pump to trigger on. (it only triggers on for about 2 seconds) 

 

When the timing cup window opens, the output signal changes from high to low, the 1100 ECU triggers the fuel pump on the high to low transition. 

 

Here's the kicker, on the 1150 you spin the crankshaft one way & on the 1100 you turn it the other way. Problem is I time them using a timing light so its been years since I have done one statically.  Long enough that I  can't remember the 1100 direction. I have it written down in my shop but I am a long ways from my shop this weekend. 

 

So turn the crankshaft one direction & see if it triggers somewhat  close, if it doesn't then turn the crankshaft the other direction then see if triggers somewhat  close (assuming you have the new sensor somewhat close to where it was before removal) 

 

 

[tnsen]

this is the hall tester Iam using.......Mini Hall Sensor Tester BMW R1100 ; 12 11 2 306 137 / EnDuraLast (euromotoelectrics.com)

[dirtrider]

On 9/17/2023 at 11:27 AM, tnsen said:

this is the hall tester Iam using.......Mini Hall Sensor Tester BMW R1100 ; 12 11 2 306 137 / EnDuraLast (euromotoelectrics.com)

Afternoon tnsen

 

As I mentioned, I time them dynamically using a timing light on the 2 cycle setting.    (BMW 1100 boxer is a lost spark system so sparks as  EVERY piston up) 

 

In any case, I would try to get it close then use their "  Ensure that the flywheel is at just before TDC. The tester light will come on precisely at the correct ignition point before TDC when you rotate the engine counter clockwise  "  to verify the setting. 

[tnsen]

well ok then Oil Heads....I cant believe its been 3 months , but any way I just thought I would follow up, my New Hall sensor went in without a hitch, got it timed using the method I mentioned earlier...also checked with my old school timing light that came over on the Mayflower...the bike started instantly, and rode fine  (short ride only) leading up to this ,the bike started harder and harder.so I feel the problem was with my sensor....I Have not had a chance to give the bike a good test ride, (my bad)....truth of the matter,2 vacations back to back...now its..Burrrrrrr season here in Michigan...I will be retiring within a week...that right I am an old guy..lol...so if I am stranded again....I'll be back...otherwise ...No News is good news...thank you all.....Tom

[Dave P]

Tn- would it be crazy to get a couple of big ass fans (or 3?) and let it run on the center stand for a while? Hook a hose up to the exhaust and vent outside so you don't poison yourself. You could simulate a decent test ride right in your man cave.
 

I had the GSAddict do my HES about 4 years ago after my RT crapped out in the rain on the NY Thruway. Dave