Oilhead vs. Hexhead vs. Camhead

[DavidR8]

Hi all, not sure if this is the correct area of the forum for this question but I couldn't think of a better spot. Feel to move it to a better place if necessary.

 

I currently own a 2005 Honda ST1300 with 70,000 kms. It's been a good bike but I'm struggling with its 730 lb weight when moving it around. Underway it's mostly fine but its top-heavy nature is still apparent.

It has zero creature comforts or 'modern' features other than an electric screen. The sole safety features are ABS and linked brakes.

 

We've only done two multi-day trips on it. Once down the Oregon coast and once to Edmonton and back from Vancouver Island.

Two-up comfort is a major factor.

I'm looking at replacing it with a Beemer:
Models I'm exploring are:

• An R1100RT, (skipping the R1150s due to the servo brakes though I could be persuaded as I think there are fewer issues than the 05-06)
  • Feels like a like-for-like feature comparison to my ST
  • 621 lbs (approx. 100lbs less than my ST)
  • It's a 23 yr old machine.
• A 2007-2009 R1200RT (skipping the 2005-06 years due to servo brakes)
  • Heated grips and cruise
  • Potential for ESA (not a huge factor for me)
  • 571 lbs (approx. 160 lbs less than my ST)
• A 2010-2013 R1200RT
  • Heated grips and cruise
  • ESA seems to be standard equipment (but not sure)
  • 571 lbs

 

Not approaching the later models because of cost of entry :(

 

I read generally excellent reviews of the 1100's (and 1150's for that matter) the 05-06 RT's scare me because of the brakes and FD issues being more prevalent than prior or later years.

The only issues I read about on the 2010-2013's are the fuel strip and some fuel pump (I think) issues.

 

I do all the maintenance on my bikes so not terribly concerned about valve adjustments or even a clutch change if that comes to pass.

I find myself burning up huge amounts of bandwidth trying to evaluate the choices only to become more and more confused.
 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, DavidR8 said:

Hi all, not sure if this is the correct area of the forum for this question but I couldn't think of a better spot. Feel to move it to a better place if necessary.

 

I currently own a 2005 Honda ST1300 with 70,000 kms. It's been a good bike but I'm struggling with its weight when moving it around. Underway it's mostly fine but its top-heavy nature is still apparent.

It has zero creature comforts or 'modern' features other than an electric screen. The sole safety features are ABS and linked brakes.

 

We've only done two multi-day trips on it. Once down the Oregon coast and once to Edmonton and back from Vancouver Island.

Two-up comfort is a major factor.

I'm looking at replacing it with a Beemer:
Models I'm exploring are:

• An R1100RT, (skipping the R1150s due to the servo brakes though I could be persuaded as I think there are fewer issues than the 05-06)
  • Feels like a like-for-like feature comparison to my ST
  • 621 lbs (approx. 100lbs less than my ST)
  • It's a 23 yr old machine.
• A 2007-2009 R1200RT (skipping the 2005-06 years due to servo brakes)
  • Heated grips and cruise
  • Potential for ESA (not a huge factor for me)
  • 571 lbs (approx. 160 lbs less than my ST)
• A 2010-2013 R1200RT
  • Heated grips and cruise
  • ESA seems to be standard equipment (but not sure)
  • 571 lbs

 

Not approaching the later models because of cost of entry :(

 

I read generally excellent reviews of the 1100's (and 1150's for that matter) the 05-06 RT's scare me because of the brakes and FD issues being more prevalent than prior or later years.

The only issues I read about on the 2010-2013's are the fuel strip and some fuel pump (I think) issues.

 

I do all the maintenance on my bikes so not terribly concerned about valve adjustments or even a clutch change if that comes to pass.

I find myself burning up huge amounts of bandwidth trying to evaluate the choices only to become more and more confused.
 

 

 

 

Evening David

 

Models I'm exploring are:

An R1100RT, (skipping the R1150s due to the servo brakes though I could be persuaded as I think there are fewer issues than the 05-06)

Feels like a like-for-like feature comparison to my ST

621 lbs (approx. 100lbs less than my ST)

It's a 23 yr old machine.  ---------  Wouldn't be my first choice for 2 up but it sure will do it. Only 5 speeds, little low on power 2 up, ABS is very slow & antique so can cause issues on some rough road surfaces. Great 1 up commuter motorcycle though. 

 

A 2007-2009 R1200RT (skipping the 2005-06 years due to servo brakes)

Heated grips and cruise

Potential for ESA (not a huge factor for me)

571 lbs (approx. 160 lbs less than my ST) --------  Personally I would change that to 2008-2009 as those are the best on the hexhead series. Great motorcycles, very good 2 up, very good brakes (unless you have a sticking ABS servo pump motor brush), most have heated grips, cruise control, & a large number have ESA, the fuel strip is the downer on the hexhead but some will live a long life. 

 

A 2010-2013 R1200RT

Heated grips and cruise

ESA seems to be standard equipment (but not sure)

571 lbs ------- Probably the best of what you are looking for. Same features as the above hexhead except the fuel strip problems (later camheads).  Get a late 2013 or 2014 then no fuel strip issues. 

[DavidR8]

Thanks @dirtrider
I was definitely relegating the R1100RT to the bottom of the list.
The fuel strip issue on the 07-09 is not great and would be a drag if it came to pass. I understand there is a new and improved replacement available but the jury is still out as to its longevity.

On a cost/value basis the 08-09's could be the winners :)

Just researching the fuel strip issue and ran across this:

https://www.fuelsensortech.com/en
 

[szurszewski]

I wouldn't let the fuel strip issue keep me from buying one if a good deal came along. It's not that hard to use your trip meter. Or, at least I don't find it that hard and usually go by that anyway - so maybe an issue if you are used to/ have to have a fuel gauge to keep from running out of gas. 

[DavidR8]

8 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

I wouldn't let the fuel strip issue keep me from buying one if a good deal came along. It's not that hard to use your trip meter. Or, at least I don't find it that hard and usually go by that anyway - so maybe an issue if you are used to/ have to have a fuel gauge to keep from running out of gas. 

In truth, on a trip (bike or car) I tend to fill up more frequently than I would around town so I don’t actually think a defective fuel gauge would be a deal breaker for me. 

[Michaelr11]

1 hour ago, DavidR8 said:

was definitely relegating the R1100RT to the bottom of the list.

David, most 1100RT bikes will have heated grips.

 

The 1100 is a very straight forward bike to maintain. R & R the fairing panels is something that newer owners complain about, but it is an acquired skill.  Maintenance on these bikes is extremely well documented with both videos and text files.  I’m amazed at the availability of relatively low mileage examples still getting sold.  I bought mine with 48k miles, and it now has over 258k miles. The only major repairs that I shopped out to someone else, were a transmission rebuild,  at 50k, and a chipped exhaust valve, at somewhere in the 100’s.

 

[DavidR8]

36 minutes ago, Michaelr11 said:

David, most 1100RT bikes will have heated grips.

 

The 1100 is a very straight forward bike to maintain. R & R the fairing panels is something that newer owners complain about, but it is an acquired skill.  Maintenance on these bikes is extremely well documented with both videos and text files.  I’m amazed at the availability of relatively low mileage examples still getting sold.  I bought mine with 48k miles, and it now has over 258k miles. The only major repairs that I shopped out to someone else, were a transmission rebuild,  at 50k, and a chipped exhaust valve, at somewhere in the 100’s.

 

There are two near me. 

A 1998 with 83,000 kms for $3k

A 2000 with 56,000 kms for $5k

the latter seems way overpriced. 
I will be honest and say that I love the look of the 1100’s

 

 

[szurszewski]

My wife and I put a lot of two up miles on our R1100RT (sold it with 102k I think- not all our miles, but lots and lots were) - but we were coming from an R60/7, so the 1100 was much roomier etc.  I haven't ridden with a passenger on an ST1300 so I can't really say how an of these compare in that regard. If you really like the look of the 1100...maybe not a terrible choice. 

 

Is it feasible to import a US bike into Canada? My understanding is the reverse is a pain, so probably it would not be easy. I ask because I'm sure you could find lower mile bikes in the US for similar price points. 
 

If you really want this to be a comfortable 2up bike it would be great if you could do some test rides the two of you - if not that, at least maybe you can sit on some to get an idea of the ergos? My wife is very particular about how much her knees need to bend - other than that she's game to ride on the back of anything (well, she's game regardless, but she's not going to be happy very long if her knees aren't happy). 

 

The 1200 bikes not only drop a good bit of weight over the 1100s, but I feel like you sit lower -  more "in the bike" than "on the bike". 

[DavidR8]

@szurszewski importing is an option for sure. I’ve not done it but I know that lots of folks have imported vehicles from Japan into Canada. 
The killer element is the currency exchange. Our dollar is pretty weak against the US dollar but for the right bike it could be an option. 
 

[Michaelr11]

2 hours ago, DavidR8 said:

A 1998 with 83,000 kms for $3k

........
I will be honest and say that I love the look of the 1100’s

 

I agree.  $5k is overpriced.  The 1100RT is probably near the bottom of it's price curve.  Good condition, well maintained 1100RT bikes are selling for $2-3k. High mileage bikes for less.

Yes, still good looking bikes.

 

[szurszewski]

1 hour ago, DavidR8 said:

@szurszewski importing is an option for sure. I’ve not done it but I know that lots of folks have imported vehicles from Japan into Canada. 
The killer element is the currency exchange. Our dollar is pretty weak against the US dollar but for the right bike it could be an option. 
 

 

well, if it’s an option that works for you and you see something advertised on the west side of WA or OR I’d be happy to take a look for you. I’m up and down I5 between Seattle and Portland every week. 

[DavidR8]

3 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

 

well, if it’s an option that works for you and you see something advertised on the west side of WA or OR I’d be happy to take a look for you. I’m up and down I5 between Seattle and Portland every week. 

Wow, that's very kind of you! I really appreciate the offer.
Pickings are somewhat slim here on Vancouver Island, somewhat better on the mainland but going to see something is a full day commitment with ferries involved.

[szurszewski]

Just now, DavidR8 said:

Wow, that's very kind of you! I really appreciate the offer.
Pickings are somewhat slim here on Vancouver Island, somewhat better on the mainland but going to see something is a full day commitment with ferries involved.

Understood - I used to live on an even less convenient but equally beautiful island a little north of you (which is actually where I first saw an 1100rt, if you can believe it). 

[ST and RT]

I've got a brilliant R1200ST for sale that I'm sure you'd love. The honest reason I'm selling it is because I found a great deal on a 2009 1200RT (got for 4k in 2019).  The RT is that great.  Not exactly a winning sales pitch for the ST. The RT was so good that I then upgraded to the last air cooled RT 2013 model (got for 8k last spring).  The ST is still great and no matter what the masses may say the servo brakes are quite addictive and amazing.  

Yup, i bought the RT on a whim just because it was a good price and even came with a Russell DayLong seat that i knew nothing about at the time. The ST never stood a chance after that, same fun performance with added comfort.  So much comfort. 

[DavidR8]

2 minutes ago, ST and RT said:

I've got a brilliant R1200ST for sale that I'm sure you'd love. The honest reason I'm selling it is because I found a great deal on a 2009 1200RT (got for 4k in 2019).  The RT is that great.  Not exactly a winning sales pitch for the ST. The RT was so good that I then upgraded to the last air cooled RT 2013 model (got for 8k last spring).  The ST is still great and no matter what the masses may say the servo brakes are quite addictive and amazing.  

Yup, i bought the RT on a whim just because it was a good price and even came with a Russell DayLong seat that i knew nothing about at the time. The ST never stood a chance after that, same fun performance with added comfort.  So much comfort. 

Like this?
 

[ST and RT]

Yes! Plus luggage, stock windscreen.

[DavidR8]

Dropped by my local BMW dealer and they had this sitting on the lot. 
2013, 92,000 kms fully loaded. 
Was a trade in on a 2023 RT. 

[terryofperry]

Camhead without the fuel strip in my opinion.

 

Terry

[9Mary7]

Camhead all the way.....

[DavidR8]

Sitting on the 2013 this afternoon reconfirmed just how much lighter the RT is compared to my ST1300. Picking the RT off the sidestand was so easy. The ST is actually a lift.

[dduelin]

I put 180,000 miles on my 2005 ST1300 before I bought a sort-of-project 2007 RT in 2017. I loved my ST1300 and thought I always have one in the stable but the RT was much lighter, handled better, better brakes, better wind management and did not have engine heat like the ST does. Cruise control and heated seats are nice features. That first RT had 188,000 miles and needed a transmission repair which I knew about when I bought it. Otherwise it ran great and looked great but miles are miles so I sold it 4 ,000 miles after sourcing a used transmission and sorting the bike out. The love affair with the ST was strained by the dalliance with the RT but I kept it another year before coming across another 2007 RT for sale locally with 89,000 miles under a doting owner. I sold the ST some 51,000 RT miles ago and never looked back. Oh yes sometimes I miss the V4 of the Honda but I would never go back. The fuel strip on my bike went out maybe two years ago. I installed a $60 dongle that fools the gauge into reading full and just use a trip meter to record distance from fill up. The onboard computer still figures average mpg and calculates tank range based on avg mpg X 7.1 gallon capacity so I routinely see 320-350 miles to empty on the instrument panel multifunction display and compare that to the trip meter distance on tank. Fuel gauges are never that accurate to begin with…. I don’t miss the fuel gauge at all. Good luck with your search. 

[DavidR8]

11 hours ago, dduelin said:

I put 180,000 miles on my 2005 ST1300 before I bought a sort-of-project 2007 RT in 2017. I loved my ST1300 and thought I always have one in the stable but the RT was much lighter, handled better, better brakes, better wind management and did not have engine heat like the ST does. Cruise control and heated seats are nice features. That first RT had 188,000 miles and needed a transmission repair which I knew about when I bought it. Otherwise it ran great and looked great but miles are miles so I sold it 4 ,000 miles after sourcing a used transmission and sorting the bike out. The love affair with the ST was strained by the dalliance with the RT but I kept it another year before coming across another 2007 RT for sale locally with 89,000 miles under a doting owner. I sold the ST some 51,000 RT miles ago and never looked back. Oh yes sometimes I miss the V4 of the Honda but I would never go back. The fuel strip on my bike went out maybe two years ago. I installed a $60 dongle that fools the gauge into reading full and just use a trip meter to record distance from fill up. The onboard computer still figures average mpg and calculates tank range based on avg mpg X 7.1 gallon capacity so I routinely see 320-350 miles to empty on the instrument panel multifunction display and compare that to the trip meter distance on tank. Fuel gauges are never that accurate to begin with…. I don’t miss the fuel gauge at all. Good luck with your search. 

Thanks Dave, I know you from the ST-Owners forum, I use the same handle there. 
We’ve enjoyed our ST and it’s been dead reliable but we want more creature comforts; better wind protection, heated seats, grips and cruise control and I want less weight to move around. 
Realistically I think I’d be happy with any RT newer than 2007 up to about 2013 when they start to get pretty expensive. 
I appreciate the info about the trip computer calculating tank range. For some retinas it in my mind that it needs to know the amount of fuel remaining to do that. 
I loved the 2013 I saw today. It felt like the 2015 we rented in CA and rode for a week and were completely impressed with. 
 I’m sure that I would take a bit of a beating on my ST as a trade but I’m also thinking about the hassle factor of a private sale. Realistically, it’s an 18 year old bike so getting a lot more then $3000 for it privately is probably not going to happen. Being able to ride to the dealer in the ST and ride home on the RT is appealing. 

[9Mary7]

8 hours ago, DavidR8 said:

Realistically, it’s an 18 year old bike so getting a lot more then $3000 for it privately is probably not going to happen.

Agreed. The used market is very soft right now, everyone is holding on to their pennies. That 13 Camhead is a great bike!

[dduelin]

15 hours ago, DavidR8 said:

Thanks Dave, I know you from the ST-Owners forum, I use the same handle there. 
We’ve enjoyed our ST and it’s been dead reliable but we want more creature comforts; better wind protection, heated seats, grips and cruise control and I want less weight to move around. 
Realistically I think I’d be happy with any RT newer than 2007 up to about 2013 when they start to get pretty expensive. 
I appreciate the info about the trip computer calculating tank range. For some retinas it in my mind that it needs to know the amount of fuel remaining to do that. 
I loved the 2013 I saw today. It felt like the 2015 we rented in CA and rode for a week and were completely impressed with. 
 I’m sure that I would take a bit of a beating on my ST as a trade but I’m also thinking about the hassle factor of a private sale. Realistically, it’s an 18 year old bike so getting a lot more then $3000 for it privately is probably not going to happen. Being able to ride to the dealer in the ST and ride home on the RT is appealing. 

Good Afternoon David.

 

I don't know how it does it but this is my theory. It calculates average mpg in real time and thinks the tank is always full because the gauge indication is always full. Therefore if the current average in the onboard BMW computer is 46.7 mpg then 46.7 times the fuel capacity of 7.1 gallons is 331 and that is what the miles to empty will read - 331 or very close to that. However it doesn't count down like it did when the fuel strip worked. I set trip meter B to zero at fill up and reset the avg mpg to - - and let it calculate each tank in conditions ridden then monitor the trip odometer and do the math in my head or ask Siri. Hey Siri, what is 46 times 7? .... 322. Tank range at 46 mpg is close to 322. At 50 mpg tank range is 355 and the computer will show 320 to 350 depending on the current tank mpg. I use Fuelly and track most every tank I remember enter in the app and currently my Fuelly dashboard reads 47,617 miles tracked for this bike so I pretty much know what kind of mileage it gets depending on riding conditions and I trust the indicated mpg and displayed tank range, still I hold to an estimated 50 mile reserve and fill up with at least that remaining, most of the time I never go past 250 on the trip B. Today I rode it 269 miles to get the Central FL Tag on ST-O. At 285 miles on trip meter B I stopped for gas. It took 5.776 gallons to fill. 49.3 mpg calculated.

 

Will you be happy with a 2007 to 2013 RT? I can't say. I know I am. I bought mine four years ago for $3500 and put $1300 in YSS shocks on it right away. I looked for a non-ESA bike as I knew I would replace the OEM shocks with aftermarket and the ESA shock upgrades are spendy if you want to keep ESA functionality. The market was $4500 to $6500 at the time depending on mileage, ESA, top box, etc.  I think the 89K mileage scared people off. It was farkled close to what I would have added and that was a saved expense. Meyer low seat, risers, painted to match topbox, and lowered pegs.

 

I have ridden a camhead enough to know the power difference is negligible and the valve adjustments are easier on the hexheads. Mine needs one or two valves adjusted about every other 6000 mile check. Screw and lock nut adjustment, if it takes an hour after I remove the fairing I'm going slow.  There are other upgrades BMW made 2008-2009 and I'll have to let others comment on that. I bought a complete 2008 swing arm and final drive a year or so into my bike in order to get the FD drain plug the 2005-2007s don't have. It was an easy swap. BMW supports older bikes to a much greater degree than Honda does. Parts are generally available for legacy bikes. My wife only rides on the Goldwing so I solo the RT as I did my ST so I cannot speak to two up riding. Compared to an ST1300 these RTs have something like 150 lbs more payload capacity. I kind of have to say there is an air of exclusivity with BMWs that does not exist with Honda. You might enjoy it. Done wrong it translates to snobbery but I enjoy the boxer experience as well as owning and riding my Hondas. I enjoy all my bikes but I can't recall someone ever walking up to me in a parking lot and complimenting me on my Honda but it's not uncommon with a BMW boxer. They always have been sort of rare and instantly recognizable and I have had strangers come up and tell me a story about a dad or uncle that had one that they remember. These are enjoyable memories for them and we part friends. Good luck with your decision.

[Twisties]

IMHO, the 2005-2009 hexheads were all equally subject to final drive failure.  I'm not clear precisely when BMW fixed the issue.... they always said it never existed to begin with.  I'm pretty confident it was not completely gone with the camheads, but I do consider it resolved with the wetheads.  

 

Initially aftermarket shocks for the hexheads did not come with an ESA option, so many of us ditched the early esa when our oem shocks were replaced.  Eventually the aftermarket began to support ESA, but for me, the aftermarket shocks were so very much better than the oem that I never missed the esa at all.  It was 1st generation esa and fairly primitive, nothing like the current ride modes which adjust suspension, braking, engine management etc.  

As the hexheads have aged we've seen more drive shaft failures.  These can take out the housing and the final drive and more, and are potentially quite expensive.  I think there is some ongoing concern over cracking in the throttle mechanism.  When my driveshaft failed I managed to get it stopped before damaging anything else, and I did the work myself using an aftermarket drive shaft.  Still $700.  I've heard tales of north of $2000 for a dealer replacement with BMW parts.

 

I never had an oilhead, but Hall effect sensor and spline failures in the drive line are the things I've heard of perennially.  You still see them on the road, of course.

 

We finally upgraded from our hexheads last year to shiftcams, and all I can say is that the degree of refinement in every aspect of the machines vs our hexheads is simply astonishing.  I understand that a shiftcam is not in your budget, but I would close by suggesting to get the newest and lowest mileage bike you can afford.  

[DavidR8]

41 minutes ago, Twisties said:

IMHO, the 2005-2009 hexheads were all equally subject to final drive failure.  I'm not clear precisely when BMW fixed the issue.... they always said it never existed to begin with.  I'm pretty confident it was not completely gone with the camheads, but I do consider it resolved with the wetheads.  

 

Initially aftermarket shocks for the hexheads did not come with an ESA option, so many of us ditched the early esa when our oem shocks were replaced.  Eventually the aftermarket began to support ESA, but for me, the aftermarket shocks were so very much better than the oem that I never missed the esa at all.  It was 1st generation esa and fairly primitive, nothing like the current ride modes which adjust suspension, braking, engine management etc.  

As the hexheads have aged we've seen more drive shaft failures.  These can take out the housing and the final drive and more, and are potentially quite expensive.  I think there is some ongoing concern over cracking in the throttle mechanism.  When my driveshaft failed I managed to get it stopped before damaging anything else, and I did the work myself using an aftermarket drive shaft.  Still $700.  I've heard tales of north of $2000 for a dealer replacement with BMW parts.

 

I never had an oilhead, but Hall effect sensor and spline failures in the drive line are the things I've heard of perennially.  You still see them on the road, of course.

 

We finally upgraded from our hexheads last year to shiftcams, and all I can say is that the degree of refinement in every aspect of the machines vs our hexheads is simply astonishing.  I understand that a shiftcam is not in your budget, but I would close by suggesting to get the newest and lowest mileage bike you can afford.  

Thanks, I have to say that I’m super impressed by the amount of sharing of experience here. 

It’s looking good on the 2013 I posted above :)

[DavidR8]

What are the service intervals for heaxheads?
A 2009 with 40,000 kms has come up nearby. Asking 5200. New tires, ESA, cruise, no heated seats. I suspect that's because it has a set of Rich's seats on it.

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, DavidR8 said:

What are the service intervals for heaxheads?
A 2009 with 40,000 kms has come up nearby. Asking 5200. New tires, ESA, cruise, no heated seats. I suspect that's because it has a set of Rich's seats on it.

Evening  David

 

These service sheets will give you some idea on services required.  Just click on each link.

 

https://www.ascycles.com/ServiceSchedules/R1200RT-Annual-motorcycle-service-schedule

 

https://www.ascycles.com/ServiceSchedules/R1200RT-6K-motorcycle-service-schedule

 

https://www.ascycles.com/ServiceSchedules/R1200RT-12K-motorcycle-service-schedule

 

https://www.ascycles.com/ServiceSchedules/R1200RT-12K-and-Annual-motorcycle-service-schedule

[DavidR8]

Thanks @dirtrider those are very helpful.

[RTinNC]

Agree on what many others have said .... get the latest CamHead you can.  I had a 2006 RT that I loved.  I would not worry about the servo brakes if they are serviced on time.  Never had an issue.  Had one fuel strip replaced under warranty.  All that being said I would still go with the newest you can find.  BUT ... if you can I would jump one year to a 2014 WetHead.  They really improved with the new design.   I loved my 2006 but when I went to the 2016 I was really happy. 

 

Good luck!