R1100R Fuel Pump issue

[Scoobisteve]

Hey guys (or girls), I am working on my little brothers R1100R, trying to get him back on the road, and after putting a new battery in and changing the final drive oil, all of the sudden it won't start. It started after I put the battery in, so I pulled it out to work on my 1200gs(just bought it), went back and topped off his final drive oil, got on it and nothing. Just spins. I do not hear any fuel pump when I turn on the key, the kill switch seems to work the way it should, I have the kickstand up...new to working on Beemers, not sure what attack to take. I did look at his oil site glass, and think he has too much oil in it (solid black), but I may be wrong...Suggestions are appreciated, glad to join the club.70995096181__FB374397-4BB9-4C50-9819-236782745401.heic

[Scoobisteve]

Referring to the manual...

 

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, Scoobisteve said:

Referring to the manual...

 

Afternoon Scoobisteve

 

You didn't have the key turned on when you re-installed battery did you? You might have locked the Motronic out. Try removing the #5 fuse for about 30 minutes, then reinstall the fuse, hold the twist grip about  1/8  open then try starting it.

 

If no start then check for spark, if you have spark then you will have to check for fuel return hose fuel flow while cranking.  

[Scoobisteve]

Thank you Dirtrider, I don't think the keys were even in the bike, but I will try that...#5 fuse, is that labeled on the cap or is it the 5th one from the bottom (driver side toward passenger side)? Thinking it sat up so long gas might have gone bad...maybe dump it all out and start with fresh gas.(Premium?) And is there a way to apply voltage to the pump while the tank is off to see if it spins? did I mention he has a 1150GS tank on it? may not matter, but details are important. Thanks again

 

[dirtrider]

10 minutes ago, Scoobisteve said:

Thank you Dirtrider, I don't think the keys were even in the bike, but I will try that...#5 fuse, is that labeled on the cap or is it the 5th one from the bottom (driver side toward passenger side)? Thinking it sat up so long gas might have gone bad...maybe dump it all out and start with fresh gas.(Premium?) And is there a way to apply voltage to the pump while the tank is off to see if it spins? did I mention he has a 1150GS tank on it? may not matter, but details are important. Thanks again

 

Afternoon Scoobisteve

 

5th fuse in from the shifter side. 

 

You can power the pump but you really should have it in liquid as the fuel both cools the pump & lubricates the pump. At the pump pigtail connector -  yellow wire = 12v   brown wire =  ground (assuming your pump is an 1150 GS)

[Scoobisteve]

Thanks, I just wanted to see if it was locked up, or burnt up. maybe apply voltage to it while gas still in the tank? Hazardous? Maybe a little): (Long jumper wire)

[Scoobisteve]

So...I have a brown wire that goes to ground, a yellow wire that looks like it goes back to the fuel pump relay, and a white wire that winds up back at the fuel warning light (after going through "dial needle damping"...can I apply 12 volts to the yellow wire and ground the brown wire to activate the pump?

 

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, Scoobisteve said:

maybe apply voltage to it while gas still in the tank? Hazardous? Maybe a little): 

Afternoon Scoobisteve

 

With pump in the tank not dangerous, the inside of the tank is safe. Remember that fuel actually flows through the fuel pump armature while running so if that won't blow it up then you providing 12v to the pump won't blow it up either. 

[Scoobisteve]

 

OK, ground to the brown, Hot to the yellow...silence. Guess I'll order a pump.

 

[dirtrider]

13 hours ago, Scoobisteve said:

 

OK, ground to the brown, Hot to the yellow...silence. Guess I'll order a pump.

 

Morning  Scoobisteve

 

Before ordering anything you might want to remove the entire pump & pump pass-through plate. If the pump is seized up you will probably find a LOT more that needs attention inside the fuel tank. Probably at least a fuel filter, pump intake sock (screen), most likely the in-tank hoses, rubber pump isolator,  & even the insulation missing from the in-tank fuel-submersible wiring.

 

I have also seen pumps that won't run (when jumpered through the pigtail) due to severe corrosion on the pass-through plate connections & high resistance, or even an open, due to degraded pass-through solder connections.  

 

You are going to have to go into the tank anyway so might as well do it before ordering single parts. If it is real bad inside you might end up ordering a (good used) complete pump pass-through plate & pump from E-Bay.

 

 

[Scoobisteve]

Thanks for the advice, just gettin ready to go outside and pull the tank...found a complete kit on "Beemer boneyard"(?), but wanted to pull it all out and make sure first. I will let ya'll know what I find!

[Jim Moore]

There's a big, fat o-ring underneath the fuel pump plate. Put it out in the sun to dry or it won't fit when you put it back on. The nuts for the plate are barely hand tight, like 7 nm. Plenty of folks have overtightened them and pulled out a stud. 

[Paddler]

I had the fuel tank lining fail in one of my 1998 R1100Rs.  It separated from the inside of the tank, peeled away from a large proportion of it.  My fuel pump failed, I think because the lining blocked the intake screen.  I had to remove the tank, strip out all the factory lining, which was a bear.  Then I had to derust the tank with citric acid, rinse and let it dry, then recoat it with Red Kote.  I don't wish that chore on anybody.  My experience was the subject of an article in "Motorcycle Consumer News" before it shut down.

[Lowndes]

Scoobiesteve,

 

IF you remove or replace any hoses in the tank you might want to use the OEM crimp type (Oetiker) one-use hose clamps on your connections.  It's difficult to eyeball the correct tightness on screw type hose clamps, too tight and it damages the hose, too loose and the hose pops off leaving you stranded an you have to go back in and do it right.   The "barbs" on the steel lines are more like smooth bulges and the hose will turn loose, usually at the farthest point from anywhere.  AMHIK.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Oetiker-Stepless-OET095157-50PCK-Assortment-Without/dp/B01M142G8P/ref=sr_1_10?crid=1YS3WWWYH087D&keywords=oetiker+clamp+kit&qid=1688412504&sprefix=oetiker%2Caps%2C114&sr=8-10

 

[Scoobisteve]

Well I pulled the pump and tested it to find yes it is fried...I couldn't find a sock anywhere in the tank (there wasn't one on it), the gas I removed from the tank was orange, and the liner inside the tank was bubbled  and flaking off. I did find some crimp clamps at harbor freight, but they are in MM, so I ordered 50 5/16 off Amazon (the hoses on the bike are 3/16" and 5/16") The hoses under the tank are dry rotted, so I bought new fuel line hose, and for the shorter pieces in the tank I bought some .99 cents/inch hose, because the outer rubber layer was brittle and flaking off. The lining bubbling off really bothers me, and don't feel right about putting a new pump in it with all that potential liner flaking off and floating around though...any DIY solutions? Paddler I would be interested in hearing how you got all the liner out...

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Scoobisteve said:

Well I pulled the pump and tested it to find yes it is fried...I couldn't find a sock anywhere in the tank (there wasn't one on it), the gas I removed from the tank was orange, and the liner inside the tank was bubbled  and flaking off. I did find some crimp clamps at harbor freight, but they are in MM, so I ordered 50 5/16 off Amazon (the hoses on the bike are 3/16" and 5/16") The hoses under the tank are dry rotted, so I bought new fuel line hose, and for the shorter pieces in the tank I bought some .99 cents/inch hose, because the outer rubber layer was brittle and flaking off. The lining bubbling off really bothers me, and don't feel right about putting a new pump in it with all that potential liner flaking off and floating around though...any DIY solutions? Paddler I would be interested in hearing how you got all the liner out...

Morning  Scoobisteve

 

The in-tank hoses are metric not SAE  (5mm & 8mm)

 

As far as hoses go, you need to use FUEL submersible rated on all hoses inside the tank  (regular fuel hose is not rated as submersible) non submersible rated hose will degrade quickly when used inside the fuel tank.  On the pressure side you not only need to use  submersible but  those hoses also need to be higher pressure rated (SAE 30R10).  The "U" shaped hose will be a something to deal with as it needs to be fuel injection rated (high pressure), submersible, & formed into that U (regular hose will not work as it can't be bent that tight & still last)

 

Some have made the "U" from metal tubbing then used 2 smaller connecting SAE 30R10 hose & clamps, the "U" shaped steel tubbing should have barbs on each end to prevent hose blow-off. (that special U hose is very expensive) . There are some aftermarket kits that use submersible plastic hose in it's place.  

[Paddler]

11 hours ago, Scoobisteve said:

Well I pulled the pump and tested it to find yes it is fried...I couldn't find a sock anywhere in the tank (there wasn't one on it), the gas I removed from the tank was orange, and the liner inside the tank was bubbled  and flaking off. I did find some crimp clamps at harbor freight, but they are in MM, so I ordered 50 5/16 off Amazon (the hoses on the bike are 3/16" and 5/16") The hoses under the tank are dry rotted, so I bought new fuel line hose, and for the shorter pieces in the tank I bought some .99 cents/inch hose, because the outer rubber layer was brittle and flaking off. The lining bubbling off really bothers me, and don't feel right about putting a new pump in it with all that potential liner flaking off and floating around though...any DIY solutions? Paddler I would be interested in hearing how you got all the liner out...

I think you are justifiably worried.  I would definitely recommend completely stripping the tank and recoating it.  Good luck.  I tried all kinds of strippers, including Jasco.  Nothing worked perfectly.  I'm not sure what the factory lining is, but it's tough to get off and there is a lot of it.  If you take it to a shop they'll cut a hole in it and torch it.  That was a non-starter for me.  If you look online guys will tell you to put BBs in it, or gravel, etc, and agitate it.  I used dry wall screws.  After many{!) attempts I got to the point where there were small patches of factory lining left.  I figured that if I couldn't strip them of despite doing everything possible, I was safe to go ahead and recoat it.  I have sold the bike, disclosing the issue, and the new owner hasn't had a problem in three years.  So I doubt he will.

 

One thing that caused me a bit of consternation.  After rinsing the stripper out thoroughly, washing it with soapy hot water, then rinsing again, you'll have a bit of surface rust form.  I used citric acid to derust it, which worked very well, but scant rust reformed immediately despite using acetone to prevent it.  I just used the Red Kote as per the instructions and it worked fine.  Again, good luck.  Be very careful with the Jasco, it will bubble the exterior paint instantly.

 

Good call on opting for crimp clamps, the screw type take up a lot of room.  I just bought the U hose from Beemer Boneyard, I think.  Expensive but worth it, IMO.

[Scoobisteve]

Well, I'm a dummy...the 3/16 & 5/16 on the tubing is the inside diameter. I got the clamps I ordered and looked at them like, huh? Anyway thanks for the link to the right clamps. Trying to figure out the best way to clean out the liner and reline it now...I've got lots of screws, and bought some MEK and acetone, do I need to put in Rust blast with he screws? I have watched too many videos and my head is spinning. do I need to degrease the inside of the tank? Can/should the access latch on top be removed and a plate put over the fuel pump access? agh...Should I start another thread , or is there one I can get answers from? Think I will search for a YouTube video again...:)

 

[Scoobisteve]

KBS or POR kits? 

[Scoobisteve]

Ah, red Kote...

 

[Scoobisteve]

Success (temporarily, at least.) No I didn't strip the old liner or re-line the tank...I did agitate it excessively with drywall screws, and cleaned it out ...new hoses and clamps throughout, 1/2 can of Seafoam, new fuel pump and filter, and I made sure it had a sock on it this time. Fired right up, now just needs some tags on it, and we can go ride...well, once it cools down, anyway :) Thanks for the help

[dirtrider]

34 minutes ago, Scoobisteve said:

Success (temporarily, at least.) No I didn't strip the old liner or re-line the tank...I did agitate it excessively with drywall screws, and cleaned it out ...new hoses and clamps throughout, 1/2 can of Seafoam, new fuel pump and filter, and I made sure it had a sock on it this time. Fired right up, now just needs some tags on it, and we can go ride...well, once it cools down, anyway :) Thanks for the help

Afternoon  Scoobisteve

 

Good job getting it running. 

 

That is an awful lot of Seafoam, that could kill your o2 sensor so if you intend to leave the o2 sensor operational you might want to drain most of that Seafoam laced gasoline out then put new gasoline in. You can then pour about 2 quarts of that drained gasoline/Seafoam mix in before every (full) fill up. 

 

Probably be better off using Techron Concentrate anyhow  (use recommended amount)  as that works a lot better at cleaning up the fuel system.  

[Paddler]

I think I may have worked too hard trying to get all of the old liner out.  I could have stopped a couple of weeks before I did.  So I think you're okay not going to the extremes as far as stripping goes.  But I wonder if you shouldn't have relined it, as not doing so may set you up for rust.

[Scoobisteve]

Well, I considered that, but the area of affected liner seemed to be contained to the area in close proximity to the fuel pump...am actually looking at the possibility of finding a r1100r tank to go back in place of the 1150gs tank thats on it. So, I'm hoping that the new pump (with a sock on it this time) will last long enough to find and probably re-line the appropriate tank for the bike. Thanks for all the wisdom, I posted in hex heads an issue with mine involving the possible removal of the charcoal canister, if you have any advice on that issue.