Valve check and adjustment costs?

[Twisties]

Just got a quote from the dealer for a valve clearance check, and if needed adjustment.  $129.99/hr x 1.3 hr for the check, basically $170.  I pretty much tuned out at that point, but I think he said another 1.7 hrs for adjustment, $220.  In rough dollars, $400.  Plus I'm four and half-five hours away.  With miles and lunch it's a $600-$700 adventure.  Yeah, I have Jim vonBaden's video, and I know where to find Boxflyer's.  I'll be doing it myself.  

 

Anyway, I was just wondering what others who use dealers or independent specialty shops pay for these services?    Is it worth getting a shim set on hand so I can adjust right away if needed?  Where do you get them?

 

2020 R 1250 GS (but I'm curious about all shift cam owner's experiences)

[Twisties]

Just watched JVB's video.  Seems very straight forward, and I found the link for the Wiseco VSK4 Premium 8.90mm OD Valve Shim kit, and Boxflyer's advice to buy the selected ones to fill in the gaps.  I think I'll hold off on getting the shims, since it sounds unlikely they'll be needed.

 

[Boxflyer]

Hey Jan,

You can ride to my house and I'll do it for FREE!

I'm going to have a WetHead/ShiftHead TechDay Weekend on July 15/16

 

Or you can come to the FART and I'll do it for FREE there.

I've had guys ride in from further away than CO to have their service done.

 

Without the shims in the 0.02mm increments, you will have a very hard time getting your valves adjusted to the TARGET I recommend...0.12mm INT and 0.36mm EXH.

 

Brad

 

[Twisties]

Thanks Brad!    Where are you?  I'll check them first, and if they are in spec I won't fiddle with them.  But, if I do need to adjust, I'll go for the target you recommend.  If I check them first, then I ought to be able to just order the exact sizes I need, I suppose.

[Boxflyer]

Sure Jan,

I'm in Middletown, RI. 

Shouldn't be too hard for you to make the initial measurement of the valve clearances along with shim thicknesses and button it back up to order the shims that you think you need.

About 50% of the time, I have to take the newly calculated replacement shims back out and change them for one on either side of what I thought I needed...hence why I have a shim collection of sizes from 2.00 thru 2.40 in 0.02mm increment spacing.

Once I get in there, I like to finish up with the clearances exactly at the target figures...

Along with doing the Cam Timing, the Valves being set to 0.12mm and 0.36mm may prove to be set for about 100k miles...and no more need to change anything.

 

[JCtx]

You should post your shim measurements here (if needed), to make sure you did the math right:). And thanks to Boxflier for offering free check/adjustment; nothing like seeing a pro do it the first time. I'd like to check the timing on mine early, but probably not worth it, so will wait the recommended 10K miles to do both jobs (timing and valve check). Wish I lived close to RI, but I'm 2K+ miles away, so will buy his tools when the time comes.

[Boxflyer]

My first complete set of Rental Cam Timing and Valve Check Tools is leaving home today...we'll see how this goes.

If it works out, I'll offer this up to others.

I'm still in a quandary about how much to get up front for the deposit to make it unlikely that someone will just keep the tools and kill the program.

 

Will pass on updates about how this goes and if I'll do it again.

 

Brad 

[Limecreek]

Brad, thank you for the sending me the tensioner spacer.  I used it a couple of days ago during the first 12K service.   Both cams needed adjustment, but all of the valves were within specification, however I do plan on setting them at the midpoint of the spec at the next and hopefully final check at 18K miles. 

 

Good luck with the rental plan.   Not sure what a fair rental price should be, but I'd lean toward the higher side of what you are considering. 

 

Cheers!

 

 

[realshelby]

I charge $200 core fee ( rental if you will) for US customers, $250 for international customers on the clutch baskets I modify. Still have WAY more issues getting customers to ship back their core baskets than is reasonable. Just as bad, and where I am thinking about implementing a staged refund amount, are the customers that take 6 weeks to 4 months to return a core. That hurts as much as not returning in some ways. So go high enough to replace the tools/parts is my advice. 

[Twisties]

I agree, charge enough deposit to replace the tools, and enough rent to make it worth your while.  I might be interested in a rental at some point.  At the moment I'm leaning against coming out to FART this fall.  

 

I still haven't seen anyone say what they've paid a dealer to do the valve check and if needed adjustment?  Just curious.  Is $129.99 unreasonable for a shop rate? 

[bimmers]

I don't recall exactly what they charge here in FL but I believe it definitely not being less than what you are seeing. I also think one hour is minimum and do not know how they count increments, like lawyers every 6 minutes or every half hour or????

 

plus all add one shop rags, grease and so on.

 

It is expensive for sure. I've always done my Hexheads myself but this new one I don't know? Sounds complicated with special tools etc. 

 

H

 

[Dave_in_TX]

2 hours ago, bimmers said:

I've always done my Hexheads myself but this new one I don't know? Sounds complicated with special tools etc. 

 

 

 

Checking valve clearance does not require any special tools. However,  checking cam timing does.

[Twisties]

4 hours ago, bimmers said:

It is expensive for sure. I've always done my Hexheads myself but this new one I don't know? Sounds complicated with special tools etc. 

 

H

 

Checking the cam timing is a service that Brad (Boxflyer) recommends and is not in the routine maintenance schedule. He says bikes run better with this service.  Because his videos show both the cam check and the valve check, it probably seems more complicated.  The Jim von Baden video shows only the valve check and it is super simple and does not require special tools.  Jim also shows how to replace a shim if needed.  Replacing is more complicated, but I felt confident in it after watching Jim's video.  I haven't actually done it yet, but likely before the UnRally I will need to.  Kinda looking forward to it.

[Hosstage]

On 6/29/2023 at 8:13 AM, Twisties said:

Just curious.  Is $129.99 unreasonable for a shop rate? 

$130 an hour is not out of line. My independent shop is up to $105 an hour, cheaper than the dealer. I don't even know what the dealer charges, it's been quite a while since I've had any work done there, but I imagine it's in the $140 range or more.

[Hosstage]

Sorry to say, same with auto dealers.

Heavy truck dealers are double that.

[strataj]

I had a small engine shop charge me $140/hour to work on my Stihl blower.  If I read my friends bill correctly a dealer near the Virginia MOA rally was $129.  I think my dealer in the Dallas area is at $140, it's nuts, we know the guy doing the work doesn't make a 1/3 of that but I have to say it must cost a future to run a shop today just look at your own bills. 

[Hosstage]

Correct. For those wondering about hourly shop rate, how much would you charge? Remember, an employee costs 1.5 times his hourly rate, or more.

[bimmers]

Look at what you pay the government and compare what you get for it.........

Seriously auto shops (dealers) are even as high as 200 in some cases. ALways one hour minimum just for diagnose (all electronic) 

 

Lack of skilled labor is one reason, it is also a reason they do not want to work on bikes over 10 years old. And give nothing for 10+year old bikes as trade ins. Left me with two older bikes when I got the new one......

 

H

[bimmers]

Just checked my bill. $149 / hour in S. FL And one more reason it is high: because we can and there is no competition. So we need to get independent shops on the chart. 

h

[Camhead64]

On 6/26/2023 at 3:13 PM, Twisties said:

Just got a quote from the dealer for a valve clearance check, and if needed adjustment.  $129.99/hr x 1.3 hr for the check, basically $170.  I pretty much tuned out at that point, but I think he said another 1.7 hrs for adjustment, $220.  In rough dollars, $400.  Plus I'm four and half-five hours away.  With miles and lunch it's a $600-$700 adventure.  Yeah, I have Jim vonBaden's video, and I know where to find Boxflyer's.  I'll be doing it myself.  

 

Anyway, I was just wondering what others who use dealers or independent specialty shops pay for these services?    Is it worth getting a shim set on hand so I can adjust right away if needed?  Where do you get them?

 

2020 R 1250 GS (but I'm curious about all shift cam owner's experiences)

My last service was at 12k,, valve check, oil change, final drive oil change and look over.  Grand total was just over 500.  I'm about 175 miles from dealer so I sympathize with you, It's a full day out of my schedule by the time I get back home as well.  I've signed up for Boxflyers tech day next weekend, get some hands on instruction, going to be doing my own in the future as well. 

[Stiggy]

$145 / hr here in north, central NC and that's moot as I have the timing tools from Brad / Boxflyer (and just completed the 12,000 mil service.)

All the valves were within .02 of Brad's recommendations and both cams were slightly out of time. The cam adjustment made a pronounced improvement in throttle response and overall smoothness (IMO.) (That's after about 500 miles of 'test driving my work :))

 

God willing, my RT will never see the inside of a Service Dept!

[MrSpock]

I just got a quote from my local (San Francisco Bay Area) BMW stealer for a 1250 GSA 12K service:

Best case (no adjustment needed, just check) - $850

Worst case (adjusting both timing and clearance) - $1250

 

[Mellow]

2 hours ago, MrSpock said:

I just got a quote from my local (San Francisco Bay Area) BMW stealer for a 1250 GSA 12K service:

Best case (no adjustment needed, just check) - $850

Worst case (adjusting both timing and clearance) - $1250

 

Ah... see, now your avatar makes more sense...

[Stiggy]

3 hours ago, MrSpock said:

I just got a quote from my local (San Francisco Bay Area) BMW stealer for a 1250 GSA 12K service:

Best case (no adjustment needed, just check) - $850

Worst case (adjusting both timing and clearance) - $1250

 

 

The special cam tools cost me just under $500 and the OBD Link and the Motoscan app for my laptop (to scan the ECM and reset the Service reminder,) another $100.

They apparently paid for themselves by just doing just my first 12,000 mile service!

[MrSpock]

7 hours ago, Stiggy said:

 

The special cam tools cost me just under $500 and the OBD Link and the Motoscan app for my laptop (to scan the ECM and reset the Service reminder,) another $100.

They apparently paid for themselves by just doing just my first 12,000 mile service!

Absolutely! My bike is approaching 12K, so I'll be doing it myself. I just need to find those tools. The jig, the tensioner and the pin are out of stock everywhere, and Boxflyer doesn't make/sell them anymore.

[Boxflyer]

5 minutes ago, MrSpock said:

Absolutely! My bike is approaching 12K, so I'll be doing it myself. I just need to find those tools. The jig, the tensioner and the pin are out of stock everywhere, and Boxflyer doesn't make/sell them anymore.

That's not what I said at all.

 

I offered you a Rental Kit and said the Tools were running out.

Brad 

[MrSpock]

Hi Brad, my apologies if I interpreted it wrong! I read a few related threads on the adv forum where I got this idea that you don't manufacture the tools anymore. Again, I'm sorry if it is not the case. I very much appreciate the rental offer, and I might take it if I can't find the tools. I would much prefer, however, to own the tools, but it seems like the supply is very limited. Please let me know if you still have any for sale.

[TSConver]

You should come to a ART event like the FART in Sparta at the end of September and get to know everyone including Brad.  He is a great guy and will go out of his way to help fellow riders.  He comes to these events dragging a trailer that costs way more in gas than any of us pay, does work all week for free with no compensation and he does not ask for or expect any and I have never seen him bring and ride a bike in the few years I have been going.

 

Most of the people at ART events are just like him giving way more than they receive.

[MrSpock]

15 minutes ago, TSConver said:

You should come to a ART event like the FART in Sparta at the end of September and get to know everyone including Brad.  He is a great guy and will go out of his way to help fellow riders.  He comes to these events dragging a trailer that costs way more in gas than any of us pay, does work all week for free with no compensation and he does not ask for or expect any and I have never seen him bring and ride a bike in the few years I have been going.

 

Most of the people at ART events are just like him giving way more than they receive.

 

I know and very much appreciate what Brad is doing! No questions! I would love to come to the East Coast one day, but have some constrains at the moment.

[MrSpock]

I just made a mistake by Googling "FART in Sparta"....

[Hosstage]

When I was having problems with hemorrhoids, I googled "anus pain", so I can relate....

😳

[Hosstage]

And there I go running another tech thread sideways, sorry about that!

[kon]

@BoxflyerWhen adjusting the valve clearances, why is it necessary to remove the time chain tensioner and use the adjustable valve chain tensioner tool? Since this tool is not available, can I use a new chain tensioner instead?

Thank you

[Boxflyer]

Doing the 12k valve clearance check doesn’t need a Cam Chain Tensioner tool, or TDC tool, or anything other than some good feeler gauges and then a way to measure shims if they need to be adjusted. 
If you need to access the shims, you need a low range torque wrench for replacement of the cam bearing block. 
The only reason you need to get the engine rotated to a certain (known) position is so you can replace the cams in the same known position when you replace them. Aligning the flats on the end of the cams to be pretty close to parallel is just to aid in engaging the teeth of the gears so they end up being just as they were when you started. 
Doing a cam alignment is when I use all 3 tools.

1) 8mm TDC Locking Pin. This ensures the engine is at TDC on the side you’re working on and locks it there if you need to loosen then retorque the bolts holding the gears to the cams themselves. 

2) Cam Chain Tensioner.  This tool matches the way the factory designed the engine to be setup so the relationship between the crankshaft and camshafts are in known positions.  No other method ensures alignment the same way as the factory designed it. 

3) Cam Alignment Jig (or Jigs for the 1250). Obviously, first as a “Go/No Go” checker, then as a holding fixture while the bolts on the cams are torqued.

 

Sorry, but this is the way the factory designed it and it requires certain specific tools to do it properly. 
Brad

[GSA Pilot]

Brad, 

 

I'm wondering if you might have the tools available for sale to perform the cam alignment, and if not is rental of the tool set still possible?

 

Thanks in advance

[Boxflyer]

I'm going to a Rental Tool Program as my priority vs straight out sales of tools...

Send me a PM with your questions.

@Boxflyer

 

Brad Smith

[craydds]

I just completed my 36K mile service.  I had previously purchased all the necessary BMW tools from A & S BMW.  Intake/exhaust valve clearances were all in spec; no need to change shims.  However, cams were out of sync, so I did time the cams.  Thanks to Boxflyer's videos, the task was easy.  Several have posted the cost of their 12K service;  makes me very happy that I invested in the BMW tools.  Plus, any BMW shop that I might consider is far,  far away.  Just not feasible.  

 

edit:  Note, after timing the cams, one must use a GS-911 and recalibrate all the Engine Controller settings.

[Twisties]

17 hours ago, craydds said:

Note, after timing the cams, one must have as GS-911 and recalibrate all the Engine Controller settings.

 

Oh, first I've heard of this.  I adjusted my cam timing but did not recalibrate.  Is there a procedure out there, video or something, for this?

[Limecreek]

31 minutes ago, Twisties said:

 

Oh, first I've heard of this.  I adjusted my cam timing but did not recalibrate.  Is there a procedure out there, video or something, for this?

 

I may be wrong, but I cannot find the requirement for ECU recalibration after adjusting the valve timing. 

 

Guess it couldn't hurt but it does not appear to be a requirement. 

[Boxflyer]

@craydds I think you added "MUST" when in reality it's not in any mandated procedures for 12k or other routine maintenance.

 

I started resetting all of the Engine Adaptations after doing Cam Timing and Valve Clearances checks in this last year...then wrote about it on several posts.

 

This may have become something taken out of context, because, I only do it as an elective procedure and find that "most" bikes do run smoother after I do both the physical Cam and Valve work at the same time as I do the Adaptation Resets.

 

There is NO requirement to do these Adaptive Value resets, so no need to include the GS-911 in either Cam Timing or Valve Clearance services.

I will continue to provide this Engine Adaptive Value Reset with every one of the bikes I work on...but that's the way I do it...doesn't make it required, it's just to be thorough.

 

Brad

[craydds]

1 hour ago, Twisties said:

 

Oh, first I've heard of this.  I adjusted my cam timing but did not recalibrate.  Is there a procedure out there, video or something, for this?

Take note of Brad's post above.  It is not a "must". I did the all the Engine Controller recalibrations because it was suggested as a final step.   We will listen to and learn more from Brad on this topic.  I have not seen instructive videos about GS-911, but have not searched diligently for such.  I have found that using the GS-911 is somewhat "self explanatory", although there is a learning curve.  Click on a menu item and the GS-911 will give instructions to follow, e.g., when bleeding the brakes.  We need to create a Go Fund Me for Brad, so he can get PAID to make more of his excellent videos, including using a GS-911.

[JCtx]

3 hours ago, Boxflyer said:

I started resetting all of the Engine Adaptations after doing Cam Timing and Valve Clearances checks in this last year...then wrote about it on several posts.

Would you mind stating which engine adaptations you reset? It'd be great to know, for those of us who own a GS-911, but are not experts on its functions. We wouldn't want to reset more than we should. Thanks.

[Boxflyer]

Since the GS-911 Firmware update in November, the Engine Adaptive Reset options increased from 5 Modules up to 7 now...depending on the year of your bike...some bikes only show the original 5 Modules.
You can do any or all of them…I do them all. 

Pay attention to the information that populates with each one of the separate sections. The reason for this is that 2 of the 7 modules need the engine to warm up until the fan switches on, (and I idle a little longer until the fan turns off). 

This whole process takes about 12-15 minutes depending on whether you just leave the bike to idle, or do as I do and increase RPM by “blipping” the throttle about twice every minute and holding the RPM up to a hi idle about 2000 RPM to cause the coolant to come up to fan trigger temperature of 212-214F. 
The transmission adaptive values reset needs each gear to be engaged for 10 seconds. I do this on the center stand and keep the engine RPM up somewhere between 1500 and 2500ish to help dampen driveshaft/Final Drive slap. One more caveat for the GSP (gear shift Pro) reset… you need to turn off the ignition (not just use the KILL switch) until the CANbus times out…about :30 seconds. 
On 2018 and newer bikes, the gear indicator flashes on/off for the 10 seconds needed to satisfy this process. I also do a 10 second pause in each gear down from 6th to 1st and then into N for the remaining time. 
 

Hope this helps, it’s not difficult and it can be done anytime… whether you have just done any “tinkering” with the engine or not. 
 

Brad

[JamesW]

I got the perfect solution....SELL IT! 

[Beech]

All good stuff. I'm sorry to say Brad, I had a set of tools for doing the R1200RS/Lt clutch work. Last lend out was last September. They are gone now. A fellow on lux touring new poster, even said thanks for trusting me... I have a Google earth picture of his house but no drones. I guess he got hit by a bus.

[Scott9999]

51 minutes ago, Beech said:

All good stuff. I'm sorry to say Brad, I had a set of tools for doing the R1200RS/Lt clutch work. Last lend out was last September. They are gone now. A fellow on lux touring new poster, even said thanks for trusting me... I have a Google earth picture of his house but no drones. I guess he got hit by a bus.

Unbelievable.  It never ceases to amaze me, how low a value certain people place on their personal integrity.

 

Sorry 'bout that @Beech