How Much Oil Should Leak Out My Bike? Are Oil Leaks Normal? Do BMW R1150RT's Need Oil Between Oil Changes?

[gmcjetpilot]

My question is this NORMAL for BMW Oil Heads to drop a little oil?  

Old Classic British Motorcycles and Cars, old Radial Air-cooled Piston Aircraft Engines... all leak oil. The saying is: "If it ain't leaking oil it is empty". 

 

Also how much OIL should your BMW R1150RT use between oil changes if any? 

(So far after a month and 600 miles oil level. I change my oil at 3000 miles or 12 months which ever comes first.  It appears I am on track to make it to next oil change without needing to add oil, but curious if others add oil between oil changes?)

 

 

Long Story if you have time to waste

 

Fritz my R1150RT was not ridden for many years. I recently went through it front to back, top to bottom, servicing and replacing everything it needed and then some. It is running beautifully. 

 

Now that I have about 600 miles on over the last month. I noticed a little engine oil on the floor where I park. I park in same exact place every time, center stand.  The place I park was clean. I had bike stored in different location for riding it again. Leak is under the engine about where the drain plug is. I have not bothered to try and ID source of oil, but it is from engine. I stuck my finger in it, looked, smelled, engine oil from Fritz.  With full Tupperware the bottom of engine is pretty covered up, I am enjoying riding too much to stop and wrench on it. I did enough of that recently to last me for awhile.  The amount of oil is fairly small... drips and drops. 

 

Did it leak before? I don't recall. I parked on a not so clean surface and not in same spot all the time.  I moved since, and Fritz is in private garage with clean floor. I recall when I had bike apart recently,  fairing off, to service and clean bike (including degreasing engine bottom), some grime / oil was on the finned engine bottom. Seemed kind of normal. 

 

It is possible I did not torque the filter or drain plug? Yes but I did use a new crush washer and a torque wrench....  I will troubleshoot, check, monitor it, put a drip pan under.  I do not believe it the German Torque method (Gut Und Tight). I used a dial torque gauge (but want to get an electronic one). 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

15 minutes ago, gmcjetpilot said:

So Fritz my R1150RT was not ridden for many years. I recently went through it front to back, top to bottom, servicing and replacing everything it needed and then some. It is running beautifully. 

 

Now that I have about 600 miles on over the last month. I noticed a little engine oil on the floor where I park. I park in same exact place every time, center stand.  It is under the engine about where the drain plug is. I have not bothered to try and ID source of oil, but it is from engine. With full Tupperware the bottom of engine is pretty covered up and enjoying riding too much to stop. The amount of oil is fairly small... drips and drops. 

 

Did it leak before? I don't recall since I did not park on clean surfaces or parked in different places. I recall when I had bike apart recently, with fairing off, to service and clean bike (including degreasing engine bottom), some grime and oil was on the finned engine bottom. Seemed kind of normal.  

 

It is possible I did not torque the filter or drain plug? Yes but I did use a new crush washer and a torque wrench....  I will trouble shoot, monitor it, put a drip pan under it. 

 

My question is this NORMAL for BMW Oil Heads to drop a little oil?  

Old Classic British Motocycles and Cars, Radial Air-cooled Piston Aircraft Engines... all leak oil. The saying is: "If it ain't leaking oil it is empty". 

 

Also how much OIL should your BMW R1150RT use between oil changes if any? 

(So far after a month and 600 miles oil level. I change my oil at 3000 miles or 12 months which ever comes first)

 

 

Afternoon  gmcjetpilot

 

Engine oil leaks from the BMW 1100/1150 are not normal but not unheard of either. Oil drain plugs can seep if the gasket is not sealing correctly, filters can leak if not tightened correctly or if the old gasket is not removed (double oil filter gasket).

 

The rear main oil seal can seep or even leak, the case halves can seep due to sealer issues,  valve cover gaskets can seep, 

 

The cam chin tensioners can leak at the sealing rings (especially the L/H one if it isn't tight enough).

 

It could even be something like the air box drain valve leaking some oil.

 

Or a front seal leaking.

 

Of a vent hose leaking.

 

Of the cam sprocket cover seeping.

 

Or the oil filler cap plastic insert "O" ring seeping.  

 

About all you can do is clean it up then keep an eye after every ride to try to identify where the oil leak is coming from. 

 

As far as oil usage goes, I have seen some that use a quart between oil changes, but to me that is a lot of oil usage that usually carbons the combustion chambers & exhaust valves. 

 

If you are now using synthetic oil you might try going to non-synthetic as sometimes that will slow or stop oil seeps. 
 

[RadioFlyer]

The oilhead engines do consume oil. In fact the service manual contains a spec that says up to 1L/1000 kms is acceptable!

[gmcjetpilot]

Dirtrider RadioFlyer..... Thank you!!!!

 

OK that is cool. Dirtrider as usual very comprehensive answer. Cheers. I did get cardboard under bike. and in 24 hours (and about 48 hrs since last ride)  two drip drops RIGHT UNDER the engine. It is a leak but small (for now). 

 

On "Fritz" with the fairing in the way I can't see clearly. Time to get on garage floor, remove some screws, flash light. mirror, inspect, clean and monitor, as suggested. I am happy to see it's a drip or two in 24 hours... However with that fairing on the bottom it could collect oil... who knows with out investigation.  

 

From the list of possible sources, I doubt it is front or rear seals, cylinder base/head cover. 

 

I doubt I double gasketed the filter but my oil filter wrench tool does not fit well. It wants to slip, so I put some tape in it to "shim it".  I do need to check it and the drain plug. 

 

Of all the possible sources, if it is NOT oil filter and drain plug, I would bet on case halves seeping. That is what I saw/thought when  I was servicing Fritz, to get him back on road.

 

PS dirtrider, I saw an old post from you about what oil to use. You mention difference in synthetic vs non synthetic engine oil. I recall you implied synthetic oil is more likely to leak? I can see that logic based on viscosity.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, gmcjetpilot said:

Dirtrider RadioFlyer..... Thank you!!!!

 

OK that is cool. Dirtrider as usual very comprehensive answer. Cheers. I did get cardboard under bike. and in 24 hours (and about 48 hrs since last ride)  two drip drops RIGHT UNDER the engine. It is a leak but small (for now). 

 

On "Fritz" with the fairing in the way I can't see clearly. Time to get on garage floor, remove some screws, flash light. mirror, inspect, clean and monitor, as suggested. I am happy to see it's a drip or two in 24 hours... However with that fairing on the bottom it could collect oil... who knows with out investigation.  

 

From the list of possible sources, I doubt it is front or rear seals, cylinder base/head cover. 

 

I doubt I double gasketed the filter but my oil filter wrench tool does not fit well. It wants to slip, so I put some tape in it to "shim it".  I do need to check it and the drain plug. 

 

Of all the possible sources, if it is NOT oil filter and drain plug, I would bet on case halves seeping. That is what I saw/thought when  I was servicing Fritz, to get him back on road.

 

PS dirtrider, I saw an old post from you about what oil to use. You mention difference in synthetic vs non synthetic engine oil. I recall you implied synthetic oil is more likely to leak? I can see that logic based on viscosity.

Morning gmcjetpilot

 

When it comes to oil leaks on the BMW boxer engines don't assume anything by where the oil drips off the engine case.

 

On the BMW boxer engines oil has a habit of migrating down & along case seams, following casting lines, following gasket seams, then migrating some more until it finds the lowest part of the engine case to drip from.  This can become even more confusing as the oil will travel to different points depending on if the motorcycle is on the side stand, on the center stand, or being ridden as it the oil seeps & migrates. 

 

There is also a porch type deal at the rear of the engine case that can catch the oil & hold it for awhile until the motorcycle is placed on the side stand then the oil runs off the side & migrates to lowest place on the case to drip from. Or it can even start to migrate to the bottom on one side but then the motorcycle is then placed on the center stand so the oil seep changes direction looking for the lowest place to drip from.

 

I have seen the L/H  cam chin tensioner seep & you would swear it is an engine case seam leaking, I have also seen rear main oil seals seep & the oil ends up dripping from the drain plug area. 

 

Look on the font of the catalytic converter for signs of burnt (baked on) oil, I have seen the rear main seal seep while riding & most of the oil blows on the front of the cat then gets burnt up so the only oil you see is a couple of drips on the ground the day after riding it.

 

The synthetic oil vs conventional oil seepage is not so much a viscosity deal as viscosity is measured the same on both oil types. It has more to do with the amount of seal conditioner contained  in the different oil's. Synthetics are typically blended for modern vehicles with tight tolerances & modern seals. So they typically contain less seal conditioner than older conventional oils.  Switching from synthetic to conventional can (not always will) slow or stop a seal or "O" ring seepage but would probably have no real effect on a case seam sealer leak or metallic gasket type seep. 

 

I have also seen the front fork seals leak then the fork oil blows back on the engine while riding then drips from the engine when parked. Same with the rear shock leaking but that oil usually just drips under the shock & not on the engine. 

 

Also check your clutch slave cylinder fluid level, the slave can leak into the clutch cavity & seep/leak out of the trans to engine seam (this will also ruin your clutch plate).

 

Also look closely at your oil light switch for seeping oil as well as look closely at the oil level sight glass for signs of seeping.   

[gmcjetpilot]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Morning gmcjetpilot

 

When it comes to oil leaks on the BMW boxer engines don't assume anything by where the oil drips off the engine case.

 

On the BMW boxer engines oil has a habit of migrating down & along case seams, following casting lines, following gasket seams, then migrating some more until it finds the lowest part of the engine case to drip from.  This can become even more confusing as the oil will travel to different points depending on if the motorcycle is on the side stand, on the center stand, or being ridden as it the oil seeps & migrates. ......................

Yes wise words. Side story. This may be common with cars and motorcycles, but this is done for for aircraft leak detection. General aviation aircraft engines (piston not gas turbine/jets) are typically 4 or 6 cylinder horizontally opposed, overhead valves (push rod), air/oil cooled 4 stroke gasoline (carb or fuel injected). Base line ignition is dual magnetos. The design is very much like a BMW boxer motorcycle engine. 

 

Piston aircraft engine leaks are fairly common. Some leaks are easily correct from an accessory bolted to the accessory drive case.  Some leaks are tolerated, some leaks not so much (like front crank seal). Tracking oil leaks is difficult because the plane is doing 120-250 MPH or more, and oil gets spread all over the engine and inside the engine cowling. Oil can migrate in any direction.

 

One trick aircraft mechanics do, is add florescent dye to crankcase oil. The engine is cleaned of excessive oil and short engine run up is done. The plane is pushed back into hanger. With black light they look for source of oil.  This may work with the motorcycle. As far as dye damage to engine it will not. You don't have to change oil after adding dye and doing inspection, but you can do an oil change.  It might work on a Beemer. The dye and black light (and special glasses) is $30 to $80 for a kit. If it is specific for airplanes is much more expensive automatically.  Obviously being a cheap skate I will try and find it without dye. 

 

In my case (or case leak, ha ha) if it does not get worse I am just going to ride it for now. If it is case seepage and a few drops a day it will get deferred indefinitely.  I will watch it, try and pinpoint source. Still hoping for drain plug or filter issue easily corrected. All the oil and grime is isolated on the bottom of the engine, so I can eliminate some leak sources. However I understand it may be coming from anywhere and migrating.  This is the fun of mechanical work.... it's a puzzle sometimes. Ride now fix later. ha ha. Cheers. 

[Hosstage]

That's not a leak.

 

Now this is a leak!

(It's not as bad as it looks, about a month of drops on waxed cardboard so no soak in, after almost daily rides for a month)

[Hosstage]

On a run one time, guy comes in to the bar and tells me I probably need a tow home, I've got a bad leak on my bike. I assume the worst, a quart of oil or more under the bike, catastrophic failure. Fine. I finish my beer, walk out, and see a drop of oil a little bigger than a quarter. I just started laughing and said thanks for the warning, but that's not a leak, it's just a drip. Pounded that poor bike the rest of the day. Still do. Got the leaks fixed a few years ago, but one has slowly started coming back. I use a rag under it now, less oil spread out.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, gmcjetpilot said:

One trick aircraft mechanics do, is add florescent dye to crankcase oil. The engine is cleaned of excessive oil and short engine run up is done. The plane is pushed back into hanger. With black light they look for source of oil.  This may work with the motorcycle. As far as dye damage to engine it will not. You don't have to change oil after adding dye and doing inspection, but you can do an oil change.  It might work on a Beemer. The dye and black light (and special glasses) is $30 to $80 for a kit. If it is specific for airplanes is much more expensive automatically.  Obviously being a cheap skate I will try and find it without dye. 

 

Afternoon  gmcjetpilot

 

You don't need expensive oil leak detection fluorescence dye, most auto part stores have it for around $10.00-$12.00. All you need is a special leak detecting flashlight to see the tracks. I have a special trouble light with a black light in it. 

 

That oil fluorescent dye does work but you need to clean the case up pretty good first.  Problem is,  on the BMW boxer it is difficult to see certain areas so finding the root of the leak is not  always easy. 

 

I use  different color dyes for AC, power steering, transmission, engine oil, engine coolant when tracking powertrain seeps. Leaks are easy to find, seeping not so easy. 

 

I don't know about BMW motorcycles but some auto makers put dye in the original oil fill on new automobiles for inspection purposes. 

 

If you suspect seeps in certain areas (again on clean cases)  just plain old foot powder can sometimes be sprayed on to find the seep track.  

[Paddler]

Not sure if your bike has a steering damper, but mine leaked and looked a lot like engine oil.  Mine is an R1100R, so no body work to throw you off, but it was somewhat confusing.  Incidentally, it used ~ 1 quart over the previous 4700 miles.  No leaks.

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, Paddler said:

Not sure if your bike has a steering damper, but mine leaked and looked a lot like engine oil.  Mine is an R1100R, so no body work to throw you off, but it was somewhat confusing.  Incidentally, it used ~ 1 quart over the previous 4700 miles.  No leaks.

Afternoon  Paddler

 

Your 1100R has a steering damper, gmcjetpilot's 1150RT didn't come with a steering damper from the factory. 

[gmcjetpilot]

45 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  gmcjetpilot

 

You don't need expensive oil leak detection fluorescence dye, most auto part stores have it for around $10.00-$12.00. All you need is a special leak detecting flashlight to see the tracks. I have a special trouble light with a black light in it. .....

Oh yea a small size dye fluid is $10, but flashlight, glasses about $20. I already have some of this stuff.  I'm all over being cheap skate... ha ha. I'm going to go old fashion method first, Getting the bottom fairing off, clean the case, run and look....   Then let it sit with fairing off so the oil does not pool and travel on the bottom fairing. While I am at it I will check the torque on filter and drain plug.. 

[Skywagon]

To your question on do 1150's burn oil.  When mine was new, it would burn from the top of the sight glass to the bottom of the site glass at about 3000 miles.  I'm too lazy to look that quantity up, but I think it's around 7 oz.  Someone will say for sure.  After about 25,000 miles....it stopped using oil.  At 5000 mile oil changes it was still full.  DR. will correct me if I get his wrong, but I think the 1150's used nikasil coated cylinders which is quite hard and takes some time to fully break in.

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

To your question on do 1150's burn oil.  When mine was new, it would burn from the top of the sight glass to the bottom of the site glass at about 3000 miles.  I'm too lazy to look that quantity up, but I think it's around 7 oz.  Someone will say for sure.  After about 25,000 miles....it stopped using oil.  At 5000 mile oil changes it was still full.  DR. will correct me if I get his wrong, but I think the 1150's used nikasil coated cylinders which is quite hard and takes some time to fully break in.

Evening David

 

Yes, those Nikasil cylinder walls are as hard as snail's nuts. 

 

They do take a dedicated break-in to not chance glazing from an improper break-in. 

 

From my experience they don't take a long time to PROPERLY break in but if they don't get broken in correctly then they can take a very long time (lots of miles) to stop burning oil & some never stop burning some oil. 

 

I never have a good feeling when a BMW dealer continually starts & idles a brand new motorcycle out front to park it every morning then haphazardly starts it during the day for customers to listen to the engine.

 

I have great respect for a motorcycle dealer that pushes or walks their new motorcycles around instead of starting them for 30 seconds to simply move them.  

 

 

[gmcjetpilot]

NEWS FLASH... Well it is pretty obvious...  

 

Well I should have looked.... The fairing does not cover the oil filter access so no need to remove the bottom Tupperware. OIL is all over the oil filter and case fins just aft of it... pretty clean engine oil is dripping off the fins.  The oil filter is leaking....  

 

Question double gasket or under torque. I am pretty sure the latter.... Like I said my filter tool did not fit and slipped so I jury rigged it (with tape to tighten it up). 

 

I think I am just going to clean it and torque the filter a bit more. I suppose I can just take it off and look, without much oil loss.

I am pretty sure I did NOT double gasket it. I threw the old filter away weeks ago, so can't check. Need to buy a quality oil filter wrench. The one I have is garbage. 

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, gmcjetpilot said:

NEWS FLASH... Well it is pretty obvious...  

 

Well I should have looked.... The fairing does not cover the oil filter access so no need to remove the bottom Tupperware. OIL is all over the oil filter and case fins just aft of it... pretty clean engine oil is dripping off the fins.  The oil filter is leaking....  

 

Question double gasket or under torque. I am pretty sure the latter.... Like I said my filter tool did not fit and slipped so I jury rigged it (with tape to tighten it up). 

 

I think I am just going to clean it and torque the filter a bit more. I suppose I can just take it off and look, without much oil loss.

 

I am pretty sure I did NOT double gasket it. I threw the old filter away weeks ago. 

Evening  gmcjetpilot

 

Personally I would check for a doubled gasket, it will lose a little oil but not very much. Thing is, if you just tighten it that might stop a double gasket leak for a while but the leak could come back BIG TIME if the stuck (upper) gasket blows out as that gasket isn't retained in the oil filter groove. Much easier to repair at home than out on the road. 

[gmcjetpilot]

WELL IT WAS LOOSE....  Dang mechanic... Oh that was me. Never mind. 

 

1) I had to go buy three oil filter wrenches,:

• 74 mm wrench was big for Bosch
• Universal three tong oil filter wrench, at least the one I bought, is no good.  Strangely it works only one way, to remove. Also the tongs were thick and wide would not get between the filter and engine case cavity,  filter well/recess. Both deal breakers.
• Last WINNER WINNER Chicken Dinner: Performance Tool W54108 Steel Oil Filter Wrench. This is a 73mm x 14 flute. Fit snug. I bought it at local parts store, Advanced Auto, $7.99. Amazon and others carry it. Amazon $10.99. Walmart on line $17.58, nope. Summit racing has it $4.19. Shipping of course gets you. 

2) I took the filter off per dirtrider to check for double gasket. Only one gasket. However the stock rubber gasket is thick. I thought hey this is doubled? Nope. 

3) Put it back on. Since I use a precise dial gage, so I needed a mirror to see it being close to the garage floor.. There is a index mark needle that moves with the indicating needle. So I torqued to 97 in-lb (11 N-m).  I will check torque after a 100 or 200 miles.

 

Thoughts: 

 

Why was it loose? I must have under torqued it????  I am 100% sure I tightened it. HOWEVER the filter wrench I had, 74mm. I used blue painters tape. Still marginal, not a super snug fit, allowing some slippage. I thought I torqued it however. That thick rubber gasket might compress over time and need to be re-retorque? 

 

Torque spec enough for Bosch thick rubber washers. As a kid working on cars I never torqued oil filters... I used the German Torque method Gut Und Tight. Many oil filters back in the day, domestic vehicles, cars, was spin filter on until first contact and 3/4 turn after contact. Never used a torque wrench. RUBBER compresses. Also now that I removed my filter and put it back on there was lots of lube to reduce friction. That changes torque vs preload on gasket. 

 

Bosch 72161 oil filters are smaller than the OEM from back in the day or other brands?  I see K&N has a filter. and they have a hex nut tack welded on bottom. A+. I see Caltric brand all over eBay. Hiflow HF163.... may be they fit a 74mm wrench... but BOSCH is closer to 73mm.

 

PS The Bosch 72161WS I see FCP selling looks different than the one I bought from Beemer Bone Yard. It came in a BOSCH box but did not have the same labeling painted on the can itself. The biggest difference, flutes look well defined and recessed from the body on the one below. Mine are less defined? Hummm what is Beemer Bone Yard Selling?