R1100s died in the rain

[RPG]

For a buddy of mine that I was riding with, returning from the MOA National.

 

1999 R1100s. 53k.

 

After riding through torrential rain near Columbus, OH yesterday, we stopped to fill-up in Mt. Victory, OH. As he pulled up to the pump, he said his bike died. We tried starting, but the engine would just crank with no luck. We had ridden about 150 miles since the last fill-up with no reported running problems until it stalled suddenly.

 

We got to a sheltered area where we could start working on it and did the following:

 

• Suspected the HES since it's a '99 and has the original brittle harness, we checked for spark and had it, although not extremely blue and crisp.
• Checked the HES harness as much as was exposed and didn't see a break-down in insulation. The fact that it does have spark, tells me it's not the HES
• Removed one of the injectors and verified fuel spray on engine cranking
• Removed the left TPS connector and observed some moisture (this was removed with a can of forced air)
• Checked all other available connections
• Placed some fuel in a small clear container and checked for water. None seen
• Pulled the two red 15a fuses as we didn't have a fuse chart to know which one was the Motornic, waited five min and did a TPS re-learn

After all of the above, the bike would still only crank , but not fire.

 

Would appreciate any insight

 

RPG

[Skywagon]

If not the HES....dry out the kill switch.  I've seen post from DR before they can be trouble when they get soaked.  DR will be along shortly with a remedy I'm sure.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

For a buddy of mine that I was riding with, returning from the MOA National.

 

1999 R1100s. 53k.

 

After riding through torrential rain near Columbus, OH yesterday, we stopped to fill-up in Mt. Victory, OH. As he pulled up to the pump, he said his bike died. We tried starting, but the engine would just crank with no luck. We had ridden about 150 miles since the last fill-up with no reported running problems until it stalled suddenly.

 

We got to a sheltered area where we could start working on it and did the following:

 

• Suspected the HES since it's a '99 and has the original brittle harness, we checked for spark and had it, although not extremely blue and crisp.
• Checked the HES harness as much as was exposed and didn't see a break-down in insulation. The fact that it does have spark, tells me it's not the HES
• Removed one of the injectors and verified fuel spray on engine cranking
• Removed the left TPS connector and observed some moisture (this was removed with a can of forced air)
• Checked all other available connections
• Placed some fuel in a small clear container and checked for water. None seen
• Pulled the two red 15a fuses as we didn't have a fuse chart to know which one was the Motornic, waited five min and did a TPS re-learn

After all of the above, the bike would still only crank , but not fire.

 

Would appreciate any insight

 

RPG

Afternoon Rick

 

If it has spark & has fuel spray then it should start as long as it is getting air & there is no water in the fuel.

 

You might remove the air filter element then try starting it. It might have a waterlog air filter.

 

Otherwise, remove the spark plugs then look for signs of those being wet, wet spark plugs usually mean decent injection but lack of a good spark. (or water in the fuel)
 

If the  spark plugs are dry then do a fuel return hose flow test, it might have an in--tank pressure leak that will give a faint fuel spray but not enough to run it.  If you have fuel coming out of the fuel return hose (the one coming from the rear not the fuel tank side) while cranking then you have plenty of fuel flow at enough fuel pressure to start & run it.

 

Otherwise take an old spark plug (doesn't have to be for that motorcycle) & open the electrode gap to about .060" then put that in one of the plug wires & ground the plug base, then see if it will snap a bluish colored spark across the .060" gap while cranking.

 

Don't discount water in the fuel as water drops to the bottom of the tank (where the fuel pick-up is), if the Evap canister is removed & the tank vent hose was not cut to a 45° angle on the bottom, and it was ridden for a long ways on the highway, as the fuel is used out, it takes it's makeup air in through that vent hose. Road water runs down the vent hose then forms a droplets on the bottom of the vent hose, then gets sucked into the fuel tank as the fuel is used out of the tank. (the 45° cut eliminates the droplets staying on (bridging) the bottom of the vent hose)

 

If enough water gets into the fuel tank then the motorcycle will usually run OK while it is being ridden at speed but once it drops to idle it can stall with no re-start.     

 

 

[RPG]

Thanks very much D.R.,

 

I'll be helping my buddy get this figured out.

 

 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, RPG said:

Thanks very much D.R.,

 

I'll be helping my buddy get this figured out.

 

 

Afternoon Rick 

 

Is the motorcycle home or is it still in Columbus, OH?

[RPG]

17 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Rick 

 

Is the motorcycle home or is it still in Columbus, OH?

He was able to get it home by having his brother come get him with a trailer. After a long day on the side of the road, and getting home at 1am, he hasn't started digging into it. I do know that a bunch of the wiring behind the fairing was exposed as the factory insulation was falling off.

[dirtrider]

3 minutes ago, RPG said:

He was able to get it home by having his brother come get him with a trailer. After a long day on the side of the road, and getting home at 1am, he hasn't started digging into it. I do know that a bunch of the wiring behind the fairing was exposed as the factory insulation was falling off.

Morning Rick

 

That exposed 12v wiring shouldn't be an issue as far as the stalling/no re-start goes. 

 

I kind of passed over the HES as  David already mentioned it but don't discount that even if you showed spark. Does he have ANY idea on how the tachometer was working/reading just before it quit, or even just riding along well before the quit? I know that  riding in heavy rain the tachometer was probably not something he was looking at.

 

With just the key on (engine not running) is the tachometer acting normal? If the needle is jumping around then that would point you towards the HES. 

 

You are probably going to have to remove the fuel tank to access things so dump the entire contents into a  container then transfer to clear containers (like 1 gallon milk containers or 1 gallon water containers) or anything that you can see through. Then look for water to settle to the bottom. Eliminating water in the fuel (or seeing if there isn't any) will be a big step in where to look or go next. 

 

Wet spark plugs could be another sign of water in the fuel. 

 

 

[RPG]

8 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Rick

 

That exposed 12v wiring shouldn't be an issue as far as the stalling/no re-start goes. 

 

I kind of passed over the HES as  David already mentioned it but don't discount that even if you showed spark. Does he have ANY idea on how the tachometer was working/reading just before it quit, or even just riding along well before the quit? I know that  riding in heavy rain the tachometer was probably not something he was looking at.

 

With just the key on (engine not running) is the tachometer acting normal? If the needle is jumping around then that would point you towards the HES. 

 

You are probably going to have to remove the fuel tank to access things so dump the entire contents into a  container then transfer to clear containers (like 1 gallon milk containers or 1 gallon water containers) or anything that you can see through. Then look for water to settle to the bottom. Eliminating water in the fuel (or seeing if there isn't any) will be a big step in where to look or go next. 

 

Wet spark plugs could be another sign of water in the fuel. 

 

 

Good morning D.R.

 

I asked about the tach and he said it wasn't doing anything strange. He was idling as he came into the gas station, tach showing 1100 rpm as normal and then it just died.

 

We looked at the tach with just the key on and it was dead steady at zero rpm.

 

When we pulled the plugs, they were dry, greyish, tan but definitely not wet.

 

Next step would be to pull the fuel and analyze as you suggested.

 

I'll report back what we find and thanks so much!

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, RPG said:

Good morning D.R.

 

I asked about the tach and he said it wasn't doing anything strange. He was idling as he came into the gas station, tach showing 1100 rpm as normal and then it just died.

 

We looked at the tach with just the key on and it was dead steady at zero rpm.

 

When we pulled the plugs, they were dry, greyish, tan but definitely not wet.

 

Next step would be to pull the fuel and analyze as you suggested.

 

I'll report back what we find and thanks so much!

Morning Rick

 

With dry spark plugs you might want to start with a fuel return hose flow test. If that passes then run it a few times to get enough fuel to look for water in the fuel. 

 

If it doesn't pass the fuel return flow test then probably a high pressure leak inside the fuel tank. 

 

With that motorcycle being an 1100S there should be a crossover hose on the bottom of the fuel tank connecting both side tank wings. If you can access that & disconnect it that should allow draining both sides of the tank without removing the tank. 

[RPG]

hi D.R.,

 

We did remove one of the injectors and checked for fuel spray. Since we were on the side of the road, we thought this would be a sufficient test for fuel pressure, but obviously not the same as a fuel return flow test.

 

We'll do that. And thanks for the tip on the crossover hose. I wasn't sure what that hose was for, but now it makes sense. My brother's '58 Harley Duo-Glide had a similar feature with the two split tanks. :)

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, RPG said:

hi D.R.,

 

We did remove one of the injectors and checked for fuel spray. Since we were on the side of the road, we thought this would be a sufficient test for fuel pressure, but obviously not the same as a fuel return flow test.

 

Afternoon Rick

 

Testing for an injector spray can fool you or can tell you something. The problem is, a little amount of fuel broken up into a fine mist can look like a lot of fuel but might not be enough to start the engine. You can still get a spray with 20 psi of fuel pressure but that usually won't be enough to run the engine. Obviously if you saw a fuel spray during engine cranking  that means the HES is producing a trigger signal (so that part of the HES is working). 

 

A return hose fuel flow test tells you IF you have enough fuel flow at enough pressure to start the engine as it needs to overcome the pressure regulator to produce return fuel flow.  

 

 

 

[RPG]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Rick

 

Testing for an injector spray can fool you or can tell you something. The problem is, a little amount of fuel broken up into a fine mist can look like a lot of fuel but might not be enough to start the engine. You can still get a spray with 20 psi of fuel pressure but that usually won't be enough to run the engine. Obviously if you saw a fuel spray during engine cranking  that means the HES is producing a trigger signal (so that part of the HES is working). 

 

A return hose fuel flow test tells you IF you have enough fuel flow at enough pressure to start the engine as it needs to overcome the pressure regulator to produce return fuel flow.  

 

 

 

That makes perfect sense.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Rick

 

Don't forget to check the air filter for being wet. 

 

Depending on if that is an early of very late 1999 1100S there could be a drain valve on the bottom of the air box, or the late airbox has a cap (I think).  You might try draining the air box lower chamber to see if any water comes out with a little oil.  

[RPG]

On 6/13/2023 at 11:51 AM, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Rick

 

Don't forget to check the air filter for being wet. 

 

Depending on if that is an early of very late 1999 1100S there could be a drain valve on the bottom of the air box, or the late airbox has a cap (I think).  You might try draining the air box lower chamber to see if any water comes out with a little oil.  

I'm going to have my buddy bring the bike to my shop this weekend. Another thing I had forgotten to test (on the side of the road) was the kickstand switch. I believe if the bike thinks the kickstand is down. the Motronic communication gets interrupted, but the engine will crank. Then again, we were getting some kind of spark, so not sure. Just a thought. More to come I'm sure.

 

And thanks as always, D.R. What would this forum be without your expertise and never ending ability to help us amateur's. :)

[Skywagon]

1 hour ago, RPG said:

D.R. What would this forum be without your expertise and never ending ability to help us amateur's

About 1/2 as busy and a whole bunch of broken bikes. 

[RPG]

So we have the bike in my shop and did some more tests. Kickstand switch is fine as well as the kill switch. Fuel flow appears strong stream of fuel per D.R’s advice. Spark is strong, crisp and blue so I would say the HES and fuel is not the problem. 
 

We then moved to a compression test and the right cylinder reads 88psi and the left is over 180 psi. 
 

so I figured that a valve clearance check was in order, but all four valves are nearly perfect. 
 

So something is going on inside the right cylinder but shouldn’t the bike attempt to fire and run at least on the left cylinder?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RPG]

Also, we checked the air cleaner assy to verify there is no water in there. 
 

Next steps are to completely empty the fuel tank and start with fresh gas and verify both injectors are spraying AND spraying the same volume. 

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Rick

 

Yes, it should at least TRY to fire off on the left cylinder. 

 

You probably should run a poor-mans leak-down test (roll the piston to TDC on compression then put about 100-150 psi of air pressure on the spark plug hole (see where the air comes out). Intake, exhaust = valve leak, or open oil filler cap = piston ring leak.

 

But first see if you can get it running as possibly the R/H cylinder walls are washed clean of oil if you had bad fuel that wouldn't ignite.

 

If you can get it running on the L/H side & run a little on the right side, just run it for a while to re-oil the cylinder walls, THEN do another compression test.  

 

 

[RPG]

So here's an update. We analyzed the fuel and found wayyyyy more water in it that first suspected. Out of a gallon of gas at least a pint of it was water. 

 

So we got all that fuel out, and even pulled the injectors to get any water laden fuel out of the regulator.

 

Put in fresh gas, primed it a few times and it started and ran, idled absolutely perfect. 

 

Ran a GS911 diagnostics and found a lazy O2 sensor (original part from 1999), so no surprise there, but the bike sounds  perfect.

 

Our further thinking on the low compression for the right side cylinder is that my compression gauge uses an adapter, so its possible I didn't have the adapter totally sealed to the spark plug hole, as we did on the left side. 

 

For now, we're happy, as this bike has always been bulletproof, ridden all over the country. My buddy has a compression gauge at his house, so he'll verify when he gets home. 

 

Oh, and finally, we think that the water traveled UP the vent line as it was not cut at a 45 degree angle. We cut it, so now hopefully that problem is solved. 

 

Thank You all for your patience and especially D.R.. Much appreciated as always, sir.

[dirtrider]

Afternoon Rick

 

Good news, glad you got it sorted so quickly.

 

You might suggest an oil change as there is a possibility that some that water/gasoline got by the piston rings & into the crankcase with all that trouble shooting & cranking/no-firing).

 

Are you going to your club's  longest day weekend? I might be in the area that weekend on a dirt ride, not sure if I will have a chance to stop by or not. 

 

 

[RPG]

Exactly what I recommend, so the oil change will happen soon as he also has an oil sight glass that needs replacing. 
 

Not planning on the longest day ride as I started s new project so work has been crazy lately. Watch yourself if you stay at Cycle Moore. Quite a few vagrants living on premises is the latest word. 

[King Herald]

Make sure your drain line from the filler cap recess isn't blocked. I found a half pint of water in my tank when I first had my BM. I assume rain was working its way in as it had nowhere else to go. 

It ran okay, just the pump had started making a whirring noise as the fuel level dropped, and it started doing it earlier and earlier into each tank full. I investigated, drained and refilled with fresh fuel, unblocked the hose, and it's been okay ever since. 

 

 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, King Herald said:

Make sure your drain line from the filler cap recess isn't blocked. I found a half pint of water in my tank when I first had my BM. I assume rain was working its way in as it had nowhere else to go. 

It ran okay, just the pump had started making a whirring noise as the fuel level dropped, and it started doing it earlier and earlier into each tank full. I investigated, drained and refilled with fresh fuel, unblocked the hose, and it's been okay ever since. 

 

 

Morning  King Herald

 

That typically isn't an issue on the 1100S as the "S" has a raised ring that the fuel cap seals to so rain water runs off the outer edge of the filler ring rather than pooling around the cap seal.  

[RPG]

On 6/18/2023 at 7:41 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning  King Herald

 

That typically isn't an issue on the 1100S as the "S" has a raised ring that the fuel cap seals to so rain water runs off the outer edge of the filler ring rather than pooling around the cap seal.  

D.R., is there a logical reason that we had so much water in this tank? We did our whole trip to VA filling up at least once a day and this bike was always on fumes (because it's an S) when we would fill up. So part of me says that at every fill-up, the tank was pretty empty, but it's hard to fathom how so much water could have entered for the 150 miles or so we were in pouring rain?

[dirtrider]

29 minutes ago, RPG said:

D.R., is there a logical reason that we had so much water in this tank? We did our whole trip to VA filling up at least once a day and this bike was always on fumes (because it's an S) when we would fill up. So part of me says that at every fill-up, the tank was pretty empty, but it's hard to fathom how so much water could have entered for the 150 miles or so we were in pouring rain?

Afternoon Rick

 

If he used 4 gallons of fuel out of the tank then 4 gallons (by volume) of make-up air had to enter the tank to replace that used up fuel.  (how much fuel did he actually burn riding in heavy rain?)

 

So (IF) the end of that vent hose was stuck down in a container of water it would have sucked in about 4 gallons of water.  

 

With the hose just hanging down it is difficult to tell how much  water was available to bridge the end of that hose for how long but it was obviously enough to give you that pint (or more) of water in the tank. Obviously most makeup air was just ambient air but if droplets of water were continually running down the hose then bridging the hose opening it surely would suck that water in with the make-up air. 

 

I have seen them suck enough road water in to stall the engine after a long continuous ride with heavy road water blasting the bottom of that hose.   

 

Another thought, he might want to change his final drive gear oil also. The final drive vent is up top & gets hit with a pretty good spray of road water. As a rule just riding doesn't form a vacuum in the final drive BUT if riding at a fast speed the final drive heats up, then suddenly you enter a heavy rain (lots of road water) that quickly cools the final drive off & THAT can allow the inside of the final drive to go negative pressure & suck some water/road dirt in.  I have opened up a number of old 1100/1150 final drives & found a track of sand/dirt on the inner vent area ledge. (I used to vent my off road BMW GS final drives to up under the seat due to river crossings quickly cooling off the final drive with the vent under water). 

 

There is a reason that BMW went ventless on the BMW 1200 final drives but that brought on other issues so on the later 1200 bikes BMW went back to a vent with a breathable membrane inside the vent cap to keep water & dirt out.   

 

 

 

 

[RPG]

52 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Rick

 

If he used 4 gallons of fuel out of the tank then 4 gallons (by volume) of make-up air had to enter the tank to replace that used up fuel.  (how much fuel did he actually burn riding in heavy rain?)

 

So (IF) the end of that vent hose was stuck down in a container of water it would have sucked in about 4 gallons of water.  

 

With the hose just hanging down it is difficult to tell how much  water was available to bridge the end of that hose for how long but it was obviously enough to give you that pint (or more) of water in the tank. Obviously most makeup air was just ambient air but if droplets of water were continually running down the hose then bridging the hose opening it surely would suck that water in with the make-up air. 

 

I have seen them suck enough road water in to stall the engine after a long continuous ride with heavy road water blasting the bottom of that hose.   

 

Another thought, he might want to change his final drive gear oil also. The final drive vent is up top & gets hit with a pretty good spray of road water. As a rule just riding doesn't form a vacuum in the final drive BUT if riding at a fast speed the final drive heats up, then suddenly you enter a heavy rain (lots of road water) that quickly cools the final drive off & THAT can allow the inside of the final drive to go negative pressure & suck some water/road dirt in.  I have opened up a number of old 1100/1150 final drives & found a track of sand/dirt on the inner vent area ledge. (I used to vent my off road BMW GS final drives to up under the seat due to river crossings quickly cooling off the final drive with the vent under water). 

 

There is a reason that BMW went ventless on the BMW 1200 final drives but that brought on other issues so on the later 1200 bikes BMW went back to a vent with a breathable membrane inside the vent cap to keep water & dirt out.   

 

 

 

 

Afternoon D.R.:
(how much fuel did he actually burn riding in heavy rain?) Based on the fuel remaining (4.5 gallon tank), he used about 3.5 gallons in the 150 miles we rode in the torrential rain. And of that, about a pint of it was water. And I would say that on a 1100s, that hose gets blasted in the rain as it's relatively long and gets all of the spray off the front wheel, (which has the stock fender extension).

 

Good dissertation D.R. and thank you for the explanation. I'll share it with my buddy.