in-tank fuel line failures - is it the alcohol?

[bacos]

What causes these lines to fail? Is it the exposure to the gas, or to the alcohol in US gas? I think DR said it's the alcohol?

 

I have a '99 R11S in Germany that has 24 year old hoses in the tank, but, well, it's been in Germany for the last decade and change and there's no alcohol in the gas there. (What IS in the gas, I don't know. It burns, and their grains are put to other IMO far better uses than going into gas tanks, that's all I really know.

 

I don't _want_ to change the hoses but I _will_ if there is a point. But if it's the alcohol that causes the problem and not the gas...

 

(trying to assemble a kit of bits to do this on EME. You'd think they'd have a kit....)

[King Herald]

I believe it's the ethanol (which is a type of alcohol) in fuel that does the damage, but generally aging will decompose rubber eventually. 

 

I've ordered the hoses  to change out the rubber stuff in my fuel tank, as it's over six years since they were last done, but I haven't got around to doing it yet. 

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, bacos said:

What causes these lines to fail? Is it the exposure to the gas, or to the alcohol in US gas? I think DR said it's the alcohol?

 

I have a '99 R11S in Germany that has 24 year old hoses in the tank, but, well, it's been in Germany for the last decade and change and there's no alcohol in the gas there. (What IS in the gas, I don't know. It burns, and their grains are put to other IMO far better uses than going into gas tanks, that's all I really know.

 

I don't _want_ to change the hoses but I _will_ if there is a point. But if it's the alcohol that causes the problem and not the gas...

 

(trying to assemble a kit of bits to do this on EME. You'd think they'd have a kit....)

Morning bacos

 

Alcohol in the gasoline is probably the main contributor as we (U.S.A.) didn't have many fuel system degradation issues until the introduction of alcohol into our automotive fuel.  After the introduction of alcohol in our vehicle fuel the motor companies had to change many fuel system parts to live in the alcohol environment. 

 

The addition of  MTBE into the fuel was also an oxidizer so that was also a factor.  

 

We still have issues in the U.S. using alcohol fuel in small engines like weed whackers, chain saws,  lawnmowers, etc due to some of them not having alcohol resistant fuel system parts. 

 

I have heard of some internal  fuel hose failures in the other countries but have no idea of if they were exposed to alcohol or  MTBE during their life. 

 

My personal opinion is:  IF you are going into the fuel tank, & IF you want to be sure that a high pressure in-tank hose won't cause an on-road breakdown then replace the in-tank hoses while you are in there.  

 

Also look at the in-tank wiring,  if the wire insulation is starting to degrade then that is a sign that you are getting some fuel related damage. 

 

 

 

 

[taylor1]

I always wondered about this myself. Living on the coast, I have access to non-ethanol gas and that's all that has ever been used. The only time It gets ethanol is when on a trip and I always make sure I burn it out and fill up with the good stuff when I get home. Never had a reason to get into the tank, so everything is original.2002. Not sure if I'm living on the edge, but it is on my mind. Thinking that this fall it will be time to get into the tank. Hopefully it won't be too late. Fingers Crossed LOL

[bacos]

When those hoses blow, do they just let go all at once or do they split a little and start leaking? I saw where you use the 110MPH fuel system testing procedure ... the A5 towards Bruchsal is useful for that and it does get regular testing. The idea is that if you can't do 110, it's starting to seep, so that's when to swap it - but it's probably not letting go tomorrow?

 

I had no plans to go into the tank otherwise. It did live in the US 1999-2009 so it did have some alcohol exposure and there is still MTBE in the gas there. It's just that I am going to have it on the lift to swap the brake lines this year so if I'm gonna do it now's the time. I don't normally like interrupting my vacation to do bike wrenching; I normally have the shop do this stuff - alas everyone's too booked this year to do any work for me.

 

(110 is about the max I want to do though - it's redlining around 120-125 and it's not that happy about running there for very long.)

[jacksdad63]

My zzr1200 fuel lines swelled badly, I'm sure using ethanol made any natural break down much worse. I replaced them with new R10 stuff but I had to go with genuine Kawasaki for the shaped ones. I contacted Kawasaki and they said the hoses are the same compound as the old ones, so I'm watching them closely now! 

I use Frost Ethomix 'ethanol remover' additive whichis recommended my several vintage vehicle groups. I ran outof this so tried Starbrite Star tron enzyme, a USA made additive, this one claims to stop E-fuels going bad and also helps with stopping ethanol degradation, but isn't a true 'ethanol remover' from what I understand.

I recommend the Frost product as my bikes all start and run perfectly, even after standing for weeks at a time, plus theres no evidence of ethanol damage or rust forming in the tanks.

[Skywagon]

Peace of mind.  I would change them. There is plenty of evidence they can leave you stranded. I’m not sure how hard it it to remove the tank on an RS. Removing the tank on my 1150RT when I owned it was pretty simple and didn’t take long. I changed them when they were 5 years old. The u shape hose was swollen but not leaking. 

[dirtrider]

52 minutes ago, bacos said:

When those hoses blow, do they just let go all at once or do they split a little and start leaking? I saw where you use the 110MPH fuel system testing procedure ... the A5 towards Bruchsal is useful for that and it does get regular testing. The idea is that if you can't do 110, it's starting to seep, so that's when to swap it - but it's probably not letting go tomorrow?

 

I had no plans to go into the tank otherwise. It did live in the US 1999-2009 so it did have some alcohol exposure and there is still MTBE in the gas there. It's just that I am going to have it on the lift to swap the brake lines this year so if I'm gonna do it now's the time. I don't normally like interrupting my vacation to do bike wrenching; I normally have the shop do this stuff - alas everyone's too booked this year to do any work for me.

 

(110 is about the max I want to do though - it's redlining around 120-125 and it's not that happy about running there for very long.)

Morning bacos

 

Typically the "U" shaped high pressure hose gets a big instant split, or a pretty good pin-hole blow though. I have seen a couple over the years that started leaking enough to effect top speed performance before totally  failing but typically they just blow then leave you stranded. 

 

Don't forget about your HES (Hall Effect Sensor) as those can also fail & leave you stranded (usually during or after riding in the rain, or shortly after washing the motorcycle). It's not the sensor itself that fails  but the pigtail wiring insulation degrades then the wires cross talk & cause a walk-home event.  

 

When you have the fuel tank removed look at the top (exposed) wires (insulation) of the HES. 

[Lowndes]

When you replace the hoses in the tank I would recommend the Oetiker type hose clamps.  I tried the ss screw type clamps but did not get them tight enough to keep one from slipping off the steel line in the tank.  I had it so tight I was certain it was at the verge of damaging the rubber hose.  The "barbs" on the ends of the steel lines are not very "robust".  This will also cause one of Dirtrider's "walk home events."

 

At first glance you might think these clamps are just too much money.  You might be reconsidering when you are standing on the side of the road miles from home with 3 or 4 buddies all looking forward to riding that day and now they have to help you.  AMHIK.

 

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=oetiker+clamp+kit&crid=2I3B3WY0ND0OZ&sprefix=oetiker%2Caps%2C92&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_2_7

 

[bacos]

Hi lowndes, are any of these kits any better than any other? any more I'm skeptical of the quality of amazon stuff. I can buy the EME ones of course. I'd be buying the screw clamps anyway.

[bacos]

Follow-on to this topic.

 

I pulled the tank apart and changed the hoses. Cut the old ones apart to see.... and they were in perfect shape after 24 years. Complete and utter waste of time. I wish I'd swapped the fuel pump while I was there instead so I got more value out of the time spent on it.

 

(Friend I'm riding with lost his fuel pump. Having to rent a van to haul it home for repair. So much for the vacation. Admittedly, it has 29 years and 200,000+ miles on it, so one can argue he got his money's worth.)

 

That said, I only run 98 octane because it's an S, and it's never ethanol (don't ask me why, just is). The 95 octane here is sometimes E10 and so YMMV.

 

Oh, and I had to use the screw clamps bc EME ran out of stock on the oetikers and I didn't want to trust cheap chinese amazon-brand. They sealed fine, but I ended up lopping off the screws to minimum length in order to get clearance to get the assembly back in and even then it wasn't great, I think something's right up against the side of the tank (the unit didn't just perfectly sit in, I had to push a tiny bit). Meh. So I'm with DR on this, just pay for the damn oetiker clamp tool and move on.

[Michaelr11]

4 hours ago, bacos said:

That said, I only run 98 octane because it's an S, and it's never ethanol (don't ask me why, just is). The 95 octane here is sometimes E10 and so YMMV.

 

I certainly believe that the ethanol is destructive to fuel lines, floats and any other non-permanent parts of the fuel system.  I replaced a U hose from the pump plate after 6 years installed, just because I was in there replacing a filter. It was in perfect condition.  I ALWAYS use E-0 gas.

 

My Airhead carbs were leaking and floats were failing quickly until I went to only E-0 gas. No more issues.

 

[Hosstage]

I always use non oxy if possible, but I don't worry about using E-10 for short periods of time if that is the only choice. By short term, I mean a week of touring or more. Eventually back home it will all be phased out and non oxy phased back in.

[fatbob]

The nylon lines from beemer boneyard are the best replacement.    One thing to mention that I have not seen in this thread is to be sure to use SUBMERSIBLE EFI fuel line.    I screwed that up once.   Non-submersible line doesn’t last long.   If it does not say submersible on the line then it’s not.   Submersible line costs several times what standard line costs.