Hall Sender/pulse sender: is it okay?

[jacksdad63]

Hi, I've read lots on here about the terminal failure of the HES,/Ignition sensor, and why they fail.

I'm working on my 1998 1100RT again, trying to fix a constant misfire, which has recently appeared after I did a full service, including fuel filter and new U hose.  I'd only ridden the bike home about 30 miles before, so it could well have been running rough without me realising.

I'm waiting on a fuel injector upgrade kit and throttle body repair kits, and have just fitted a used but guaranteed ignition coil. Whilst its it bits I checked the HES wiring, its perfect, not a sign of any insulation damage or corrosion etc, it looks good as new, so can I leave it in place?

I'm thinking it has been replaced already as the bike has done 67,000 miles and is 25 years old, plus the main bolt holding the engine and frame together is showing signs of being undone, so maybe had a major job done?

I've only got early service history, nothing from the last 10 years so I've no clue whats been swapped!

Thanks again 

[dirtrider]

31 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

Hi, I've read lots on here about the terminal failure of the HES,/Ignition sensor, and why they fail.

I'm working on my 1998 1100RT again, trying to fix a constant misfire, which has recently appeared after I did a full service, including fuel filter and new U hose.  I'd only ridden the bike home about 30 miles before, so it could well have been running rough without me realising.

I'm waiting on a fuel injector upgrade kit and throttle body repair kits, and have just fitted a used but guaranteed ignition coil. Whilst its it bits I checked the HES wiring, its perfect, not a sign of any insulation damage or corrosion etc, it looks good as new, so can I leave it in place?

I'm thinking it has been replaced already as the bike has done 67,000 miles and is 25 years old, plus the main bolt holding the engine and frame together is showing signs of being undone, so maybe had a major job done?

I've only got early service history, nothing from the last 10 years so I've no clue whats been swapped!

Thanks again 

Afternoon jacksdad63

 

Is it actually misfiring or does it just sound like it's mis-firing out the exhaust but otherwise runs OK?

 

If your HES wiring (even inside the outer sheath) still looks good then most likely the HES has been replaced. 

[jacksdad63]

HES: All the wires from the block connector down to about 6" are perfect, I didn't split the outer sleeve any further as everything looks to be like new. I'm saying its a replacement unit and not at fault.

Definate misfire, It won't pull cleanly from low to mid revs, right where you need it most! Splutters and misses right through the revs really, and won't pull 5th gear below 50mph.

I need to get the injector kit and throttle body kits installed, then try it again, with the new ignition coil I've fitted but not used yet. I tested the TPS and got a smooth reading on my analog meter, so I'm hoping the new parts sort it out!

I've fitted new Bosch FR6DDC spark plugs, then refitted the NGK BKR7EKC the bike came with, both run the same, and are burning nice and clean. 

The parts were due today but hoping they get here tomorrow now, can't do anything else!

[Lowndes]

Jacksdad63,

 

This is what a bad HES wiring looks like.  This connector is under the tank just in front of the ECU inside a flexible cover.  Notice the sheath and shrink tube are in very good shape.  The wires inside the sheath were much worse than what you see here.  From my '99 R1100RT, about 20K miles at this time (4-17-17):

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, jacksdad63 said:

HES: All the wires from the block connector down to about 6" are perfect, I didn't split the outer sleeve any further as everything looks to be like new. I'm saying its a replacement unit and not at fault.

Definate misfire, It won't pull cleanly from low to mid revs, right where you need it most! Splutters and misses right through the revs really, and won't pull 5th gear below 50mph.

I need to get the injector kit and throttle body kits installed, then try it again, with the new ignition coil I've fitted but not used yet. I tested the TPS and got a smooth reading on my analog meter, so I'm hoping the new parts sort it out!

I've fitted new Bosch FR6DDC spark plugs, then refitted the NGK BKR7EKC the bike came with, both run the same, and are burning nice and clean. 

The parts were due today but hoping they get here tomorrow now, can't do anything else!

Afternoon jacksdad63

 

Ok that does sound like an engine issue not an exhaust issue. 

 

Have you tried riding it with the CCP removed, if not then start with that (that will eliminate the o2 sensor control).

 

Next, you probably should run a fuel return hose flow test just to verify enough fuel pressure at enough flow. This is a basic test that needs to be run so you can eliminate a primary fueling issue. 

 

If it passes the return hose flow test then next check the very fine filter screens in the top of your fuel injectors (where the fuel line attaches), if those screens are partially plugged it can run like crap as the throttle is opened under load.

 

Maybe try a secondary ignition resistance test (from one spark plug wire spark plug metal clip all the way through the secondary to the other side spark plug wire spark plug metal clip. (should be around 18K to 22K ohms) 

 

[jacksdad63]

Thanks again DR, thats given me plenty to look at. 

I've just removed 250ml of engine oil, I'd everfilled it....level is now as shown: Can overfilling cause a misfire? Reason I ask is that when I removed the new Bosch plugs, they were a little 'oily' so I refitted the NGK's. I then refitted the new Bosch plugs before going for a 120 mile run, which is the last time I ran it and the misfire started, but now the plugs are bang on correct colour and oil free. The last 20 miles of use were on the motorway at 70-80mph, then just 2 miles of slow road speeds before home.

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

Thanks again DR, thats given me plenty to look at. 

I've just removed 250ml of engine oil, I'd everfilled it....level is now as shown: Can overfilling cause a misfire? Reason I ask is that when I removed the new Bosch plugs, they were a little 'oily' so I refitted the NGK's. I then refitted the new Bosch plugs before going for a 120 mile run, which is the last time I ran it and the misfire started, but now the plugs are bang on correct colour and oil free. The last 20 miles of use were on the motorway at 70-80mph, then just 2 miles of slow road speeds before home.

Evening  jacksdad63

 

That oiliness on the plugs will probably start going away after you start riding it more & idling it less.

 

You have a bigger issue that that in your future, looking at the picture of that sight glass, that thing is toast, it looks like it could pop out  then dump all your motor oil on you left foot at any minute. That thing popping out is definitely in you future. 

[jacksdad63]

Just had a look at the injectors, I can't see any mesh: is this it on the top of the injector body?

BUT! I've just spotted something...The yellow sleeve on the injector tip is damaged, it appears to have been snagged when I replaced the injector. Yes, I took one out when doing the service, just to have a check 

That tiny snag is stopping the cap from seating properly, partially shielding the spray tip....my fault!

I just hope this is the issue, of course I'm fitting the later injector kit so maybe I'd never have noticed, and wouldn't have held myself to blame

[jacksdad63]

And yes, I've noticed the state of the sight glass, its available as a seperate part, £36, any advice on doing this job?

I just hope its all worthwhile! I own a 2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 but I'm having trouble with the riding position, arthritis in my neck the problem, and the Bee-Em is the best bike I've ridden for comfort, really need to get it sorted! 

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

And yes, I've noticed the state of the sight glass, its available as a seperate part, £36, any advice on doing this job?

I just hope its all worthwhile! I own a 2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 but I'm having trouble with the riding position, arthritis in my neck the problem, and the Bee-Em is the best bike I've ridden for comfort, really need to get it sorted! 

Evening  jacksdad63

 

Injector inlet screen__

 

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

And yes, I've noticed the state of the sight glass, its available as a seperate part, £36, any advice on doing this job?

I just hope its all worthwhile! I own a 2002 Kawasaki ZZR1200 but I'm having trouble with the riding position, arthritis in my neck the problem, and the Bee-Em is the best bike I've ridden for comfort, really need to get it sorted! 

Evening  jacksdad63

 

That depends, if you can find a new old-stock plastic lens sight glass then it is an easy install. You can run a screw into your old sight glass then use that screw to pry the old sight glass out. Then use an appropriate sized socket to drive the new one in. (fairly easy install).

 

BUT!!!!!___ The new available sight glass has an actual glass lens & THAT  really complicates the sight glass installation as the glass lens runs almost to the outer rubber edge so it is very/very/very easy to break the glass lens when installing it without a proper BMW installation tool.  Many home installs have resulted in a broken lens. 

 

If you want to try it then make sure that your driver is thin walled enough to only contact the outer edge of the new sight glass then lubricate it with something that dries up (do not use motor oil or grease).  

 

The best lube for installing the new lens is brake-clean but for that to work you need to work very fast & efficient. 

 

If you are a slower worker then Windex glass cleaner makes a somewhat good lube as it will eventually dry up after the install & it takes longer to dry (gives you more working time),  but it isn't as effective as brake-clean for actual lubrication. 

 

Also, make darn sure the hole in the engine case is squeaky clean, remove ALL the old seal residue & clean the hole thoroughly.   

[Lowndes]

Jacksdad63,

 

The copper ring around the hole is part of the tiny basket filter in the injector, as DR shows above.  The prescribed removal method is a sheetrock screw twisted into the hold just enough to remove the basket.  This destroys the little filter the DR shows above and a new filter is installed.  Don't do that.  Blow the injector dry and shine a light into the hole to inspect the filter.  If there is trash in it, there are youtube vids on how to backflow injectors with a can of WD40 and a 9v battery.

 

 

This is the spray tip on one of my OEM injectors.  Undamaged.  Couldn't see your spray tip.  Are you sure yours is damaged??

 

 

And this is more what your sight glass and surrounding seal are supposed to look like.  I wouldn't even crank it again until THAT is fixed!!  Let's not talk about that oil coming down on the left, OK??

 

 

 

 

 

[jacksdad63]

I've been back and checked the sight glass, the outer rubber has broke away but its totally oil tight, so I reckon it'll last a while longer. I did replace one years ago, as it misted up and I couldn't check the oil level, I used a bearing puller with a slide hammer after breaking out all the old glass, wasn't too difficult. There's a slight oil leak from the oil pressure switch, at least that is an easy fix!

I've checked the mesh in the injector, cannot see anything obvious in there.

I'm now sure the problem is that yellow sleeve, it won't fit all the way on to the injector tip, so its blocking the fuel spray pattern, may even be drawing in air. I need to get the new injector kit and throttle body fitted, balance them and see how it runs before I do anything else.

Picture isn't the best but you can tell the yellow sleeve is sitting too low due to that little damaged bit, the injector nozzle tip is below the plastic.

 

[jacksdad63]

CCP? Don't think I've got one....

[dirtrider]

Quote

I've been back and checked the sight glass, the outer rubber has broke away but its totally oil tight, so I reckon it'll last a while longer. I did replace one years ago, as it misted up and I couldn't check the oil level, I used a bearing puller with a slide hammer after breaking out all the old glass, wasn't too difficult. There's a slight oil leak from the oil pressure switch, at least that is an easy fix!

Morning jacksdad63

 

As I mentioned above the old plastic lens sight glass was easy, the new (BMW replacement) real-glass sight glass isn't so easy to drive in without breaking the glass lens.

 

 

[King Herald]

16 hours ago, Lowndes said:

Jacksdad63,

 

This is what a bad HES wiring looks like.  This connector is under the tank just in front of the ECU inside a flexible cover.  Notice the sheath and shrink tube are in very good shape.  The wires inside the sheath were much worse than what you see here.  From my '99 R1100RT, about 20K miles at this time (4-17-17):

 

 

 

I'm surprised that was even running at all, unless you never got it wet in any way.

Mine had dozens of minute cracks in the insulation, in the same place as yours, but hardly visible. It dumped me ten miles from home, an hour after I had given it a very through wash down to get rid of winter salt, lots of water hoses all over.  

[jacksdad63]

My HES is in perfect condition, it must have been replaced in the past. Am I correct in saying the actual senders are unlikely to fail, its just the wiring that breaks down and shorts out? 

Still waiting for my new bits now, I'm like a kid at Christmas....

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, jacksdad63 said:

My HES is in perfect condition, it must have been replaced in the past. Am I correct in saying the actual senders are unlikely to fail, its just the wiring that breaks down and shorts out? 

Still waiting for my new bits now, I'm like a kid at Christmas....

Morning jacksdad63

 

Yes, it's almost always JUST the wiring insulation that breaks down allowing the signal to cross-talk between the exposed wires when damp. 

 

About the only time that I have seen, or found, actual bad HALL sensors themselves is if the pulley is reinstalled with the timing cup out of position so the spinning timing cup ripped into the sensors.  

[jacksdad63]

Thanks again everyone, I'm still waiting for the new parts, the later injector upgrade kit is still out of stock so the place I use didn't bother sending the throttle body repair kits.

They are sending them overnight now,  so I can get the bike rebuilt: I'm still positive that the running issue was caused by that damaged yellow sleeve blocking the fuel spray, I'll soon know and report back . If its back to running properly, I'll be able to see how the new injectors improve things, rather than doing all the jobs in one go.