Safety Switches???

[ALeighton]

Okay, just to keep the no-brainer comments to a minimum: I am an automotive engineer with a perplexing electrical problem on my 2004 BMW R1150RT.

Symptoms:

1) Engine died at an intersection like an electrical shut-off not a fuel shut-off.  I restarted and drove home no problems.

2) Next morning, I put the transmission in neutral, pulled in the clutch, raised the kickstand & started the motorcycle no problem.  Put the transmission in first gear to drive away (engine didn't die) and then the engine shut off like the previous night when I released the clutch.  The cutout was not lack of fuel related, same as before like an electrical shut-off.

3) I restarted the motorcycle following the same scenario and had the same shut-off failure.  Late for work put bike away and drove my truck to work.

   a. Starter turned over like the battery had a full charge.  Cheap aftermarket  battery is only 1 month old.  Previous Odyssey battery only lasted one year so thought no point in buying another expensive battery!  Battery predecessor to Odyssey came with used motorcycle unknown age.

4) 10 hours later when I returned to diagnose the motorcycle...

   a. Battery reads 12.3V when not loaded.

   b. Turning the ignition key illuminates the dash lights very dimly, but no fuel pump noise, no starter solenoid, no turning over

   c. Clock is reset to zero

5) Put battery on charger which shows battery is fully charged.  Can't do a load test on bike since no headlights, no starter, no fuel pump.  Will be taking battery to shop for load test tomorrow.

 

Diagnosis:

1) Safety switches at clutch, transmission, and kickstand all work correctly.  These are not the problem.  Also the engine dying when the clutch was released is the real brain teaser.

2) The degenerative string of failures (while appreciated that I made it home okay) are worrysome.  Not sure what electrical component fades to fail.  Most work or don't.

3) Battery is highly suspect at this point, but being only 1 month old I am skeptical.

4) I have a complete wire harness from an identical bike and will start swaping out parts (like the computer) over the weekend, but most of the parts are buried.

5) I am a little concerned that going through 2 batteries in 2 years (possibly a third) may indicate that something is reducing my battery life.  Any ideas?

6) Replaced every relay in the circuit board.  Verified every fuse is okay.

[DakarTimm]

My experiance points to a short to ground . One of the wires related to the safety circuit is rubbing intermittingly to ground . How did you determine the safety cicuit weren't the problem ? 

Continuity test ? Negative cable has been checked throughly ? 

[Hosstage]

My first thought was a loose battery cable at the battery (checked I'm sure) or at the other end, or loose or dirty ground cable.

[dirtrider]

15 hours ago, ALeighton said:

Okay, just to keep the no-brainer comments to a minimum: I am an automotive engineer with a perplexing electrical problem on my 2004 BMW R1150RT.

Symptoms:

1) Engine died at an intersection like an electrical shut-off not a fuel shut-off.  I restarted and drove home no problems.

2) Next morning, I put the transmission in neutral, pulled in the clutch, raised the kickstand & started the motorcycle no problem.  Put the transmission in first gear to drive away (engine didn't die) and then the engine shut off like the previous night when I released the clutch.  The cutout was not lack of fuel related, same as before like an electrical shut-off.

3) I restarted the motorcycle following the same scenario and had the same shut-off failure.  Late for work put bike away and drove my truck to work.

   a. Starter turned over like the battery had a full charge.  Cheap aftermarket  battery is only 1 month old.  Previous Odyssey battery only lasted one year so thought no point in buying another expensive battery!  Battery predecessor to Odyssey came with used motorcycle unknown age.

4) 10 hours later when I returned to diagnose the motorcycle...

   a. Battery reads 12.3V when not loaded.

   b. Turning the ignition key illuminates the dash lights very dimly, but no fuel pump noise, no starter solenoid, no turning over

   c. Clock is reset to zero

5) Put battery on charger which shows battery is fully charged.  Can't do a load test on bike since no headlights, no starter, no fuel pump.  Will be taking battery to shop for load test tomorrow.

 

Diagnosis:

1) Safety switches at clutch, transmission, and kickstand all work correctly.  These are not the problem.  Also the engine dying when the clutch was released is the real brain teaser.

2) The degenerative string of failures (while appreciated that I made it home okay) are worrysome.  Not sure what electrical component fades to fail.  Most work or don't.

3) Battery is highly suspect at this point, but being only 1 month old I am skeptical.

4) I have a complete wire harness from an identical bike and will start swaping out parts (like the computer) over the weekend, but most of the parts are buried.

5) I am a little concerned that going through 2 batteries in 2 years (possibly a third) may indicate that something is reducing my battery life.  Any ideas?

6) Replaced every relay in the circuit board.  Verified every fuse is okay.

Afternoon ALeighton

 

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is a problem with the side stand switch but the clutch switch should only effect the engine starting part not the in-gear engine shut-off  part. So the clutch switch interaction with the stalling seems somewhat unlikely.

 

Try the very same thing that got you the clutch lever stall but this time do not release the clutch lever just wiggle the handlebars back & forth. If there is a partial break (wires broken from flexing but still touching) in either the red, or green, wire going from the frame to the handlebars (usually near the first steering head zip tie) then you can get a instant stall at slight handlebar movement. Using the clutch lever might have allowed the bars  to move.

Or, with the engine idling in neutral just grab that wire harness running to the handlebars on the R/H side of the steering head & give them a slight wiggle, twist, and pull. If the engine shuts off or faulters then you have probably found your problem.  

 

Can you remember what the dash RID or clock did right before, during, & after the stall?   If not try to quickly look at that during next stall (this info can help us pin it down to certain circuits) 

 

It could also be something like a high resistance cable connection or failing ignition switch. Old 1100/1150 ignition switch's can start getting higher resistance as they age.  If it is the ignition switch (a fair possibility) then you want to try to catch or find that before doing other things that might mask it for a short time as it will come back to haunt you.

 

You probably should start by using a voltmeter to check out the ignition-switch-ON circuits for low voltage (that will show things like ignition switch resistance issues). 

 

Next, check the voltage drop on the (+) battery cable between the battery (+) post  & the starter large B+ stud during engine cranking. (put meter probe on the battery post itself not on the cable that is on the post). This will verify cable & cable connection resistance.

 

Next, check the voltage drop during engine cranking between the battery (-) post (but on the post itself not the cable on the post) and the transmission case or starter housing (this will verify the ground connection at top rear of transmission/engine). That rear top of engine main grounding point is the common ground point for most circuit lows & is somewhat known to corrode & have resistance. (very difficult to get to that powertrain grounding point) --____ Easiest way to find a problem with the main grounding area is with voltage drop tests & resistance tests.

 

With that clutch release stall you can't rule out low system voltage to one or your fuel or ignition circuits. With the engine freewheeling in neutral the alternator is upping the system voltage a bit so right at clutch release the engine RPM could drop enough to lower alternator output enough to have an impact.

 

Personally, I don't like starting to swap parts or wiring UNTIL the problem is found & isolated to a specific circuit or item. Just the fact of moving things around, or unplugging reconnecting things, can temporarily make a problem appear gone  but that might not be the root of problem so the problem can reappear while riding in the middle of the night when you are far from home. I want to actually catch & identify "the problem" not temporarily cover it up due to moving things around. 

 

On the battery seeming to run down or have a short life__ If your motorcycle has the older aftermarket Kisan turn signal minder those have a basic built-in internal constant draw that can run the battery down if the motorcycle is not ridden often. Newer Kisan turn signal minders are better so supposedly do not have that patristic draw.  You might do a basic patristic draw test to see if something is draining your battery with the motorcycle parked. You want to measure the parasitic draw at or under 2.6mA with the key in the OFF position. 

[King Herald]

I had much the same problem on my 1100r, the motor shut off several times as I was attempting to leave the beer shop. Same as you, just as I pulled  away it died, I heard the fuel pump whirr like I had just turned the bike on, it restarted okay. Then again when I pulled up at the next junction, died, but restarted okay. 

Then it did it a couple of times when I was riding along, the motor died for a second or two, then restarted itself 

 

It turned out to be the ignition switch. The little plastic part beneath the main barrel. 

They are now obsolete, my BM parts supplier told me, but there is an identical equivalent that has slightly longer wires and is half the price. 

[RPG]

I'll only add that I also own a '04 RT and several years ago found high resistance areas in the ignition switch (as D.R. pointed out). The switch CAN be dis-assembled and cleaned, which is what I did.

 

 

[ALeighton]

Just an update on my progress...

Thank you Hosstage.  Upon battery removal, the negative battery terminal had some corrosion on it, but didn't turn out to be any cause.  The battery load tested at the shop okay, terminals all cleaned up and no improvement at re-installation.

Thank you DakarTimm, I will check the flow of current to see if I have any electrical movement with the key in on/off position (should be something as the dash is illumiated very dimly).

Thank you dirtrider, I will double check the sidestand switch (low hanging fruit and easily accessed).  Most of your advice will have to wait until I get the fuel pump whirring again.  I am liking your's and King Herald's advise regarding the ignition switch.  Will keep you updated.

[dirtrider]

24 minutes ago, ALeighton said:

Thank you dirtrider, I will double check the sidestand switch (low hanging fruit and easily accessed).  Most of your advice will have to wait until I get the fuel pump whirring again.  I am liking your's and King Herald's advise regarding the ignition switch.  Will keep you updated.

Afternoon  ALeighton

 

You might want to do some of the voltage testing before your fuel pump starts working again.  Once/if the pump goes back to normal your problem might be more difficult to find & isolate with voltage checks as a running pump probably means a low voltage isn't present.    

[King Herald]

15 hours ago, RPG said:

I'll only add that I also own a '04 RT and several years ago found high resistance areas in the ignition switch (as D.R. pointed out). The switch CAN be dis-assembled and cleaned, which is what I did.

 

 

I stripped and cleaned mine too, found a burn mark on the centre contact point.... but as I was warned, 200 miles later it started playing up again. So I replaced it.

 

Just getting it out was a real chore as the handlebars, clocks and speedo had to be removed just to get to the tiny little retaining screw. 

[ALeighton]

So I verified the side kickstand switch at the connector between pins 1 and 3 is continuous in the up-position and open-circuit in the down-position.  I then found a nice YouTube video which showed the location of the set screw on the ignition switch housing.  I was able to remove the switch without destroying or removing the security bolts.  Nice tip to pass along, I used an eyeglasses repair screw driver (which had the very small standard bit) and a 4" flexible extension to snake between the fork tubes.  The video also mentioned cleaning the inside of the switch so I proceeded to cut enough zip ties to get it out where I could open the switch.  The video did not mention the many small parts and springs which would fly out of the switch when opened.  I found all the small parts, but two of the springs are lost forever.  I will be purchasing a new switch as several of you have recommended.  Interesting anecdotal evidence is that water poured out of the ignition tumbler and out of the switch itself.  This likely explains my battery drain, low voltage at the dash, etc.  Assuming that the water entered the switch through the tumbler, is there some seal compromised in this assembly that I can't see since I didn't remove the tumbler housing from the tripple tree?

[dirtrider]

14 minutes ago, ALeighton said:

So I verified the side kickstand switch at the connector between pins 1 and 3 is continuous in the up-position and open-circuit in the down-position.  I then found a nice YouTube video which showed the location of the set screw on the ignition switch housing.  I was able to remove the switch without destroying or removing the security bolts.  Nice tip to pass along, I used an eyeglasses repair screw driver (which had the very small standard bit) and a 4" flexible extension to snake between the fork tubes.  The video also mentioned cleaning the inside of the switch so I proceeded to cut enough zip ties to get it out where I could open the switch.  The video did not mention the many small parts and springs which would fly out of the switch when opened.  I found all the small parts, but two of the springs are lost forever.  I will be purchasing a new switch as several of you have recommended.  Interesting anecdotal evidence is that water poured out of the ignition tumbler and out of the switch itself.  This likely explains my battery drain, low voltage at the dash, etc.  Assuming that the water entered the switch through the tumbler, is there some seal compromised in this assembly that I can't see since I didn't remove the tumbler housing from the tripple tree?

Morning ALeighton

 

About the only way water can get into that switch is down through the key cylinder.  

 

You should have checked this site for older threads on the ignition switch disassembly as it has been covered many times including paying attention to those little springs. There is a little wafer that you can access in the switch housing that allows the key cylinder to be removed. 

[ALeighton]

So wanted to give the update, got the bike running last night.  I had quite an ordeal (5 weeks of backorder from two different vendors) trying to buy a replacment ingnition switch.  BMW no longer makes it for my "vintage" motorcycle.  I purchased a used one from EBay (fingers crossed for its longevity) but had to buy a package deal with all the lock cylinders found on the motorcycle just to get the electronic switch screwed to the bottom.  I have lots of extra parts for future.  As a warning to other home mechanics, please read the switch disassembly thread mentioned by dirtrider above.  Thanks to all for your suggestions, they were very helpful in my diagnosis.

[King Herald]

2 hours ago, ALeighton said:

So wanted to give the update, got the bike running last night.  I had quite an ordeal (5 weeks of backorder from two different vendors) trying to buy a replacment ingnition switch.  BMW no longer makes it for my "vintage" motorcycle.  I purchased a used one from EBay (fingers crossed for its longevity) but had to buy a package deal with all the lock cylinders found on the motorcycle just to get the electronic switch screwed to the bottom.  I have lots of extra parts for future.  As a warning to other home mechanics, please read the switch disassembly thread mentioned by dirtrider above.  Thanks to all for your suggestions, they were very helpful in my diagnosis.

When I tried to order  the ignition switch I was told they are obsolete, but the guy sent me a link to an identical switch that has the cable 6" longer, and was 40% cheaper than the 'correct' switch. I installed it a year or so ago and it's been perfect ever since. I did post about it on a thread here with the info.