2004 R1150R No Start (complicated)

[lskustumz]

Hello Everyone,

   First time poster, long time lurker and in need of some experienced help. I have a 2004 R1150R with 11k miles, NON-ABS bike that is in a no start condition. Some background. I'd like to consider myself pretty mechanically and technically inclined (but humbled many times...lol). Prior owner let it sit and battery died, old fuel (about a year) and got this as a project bike. I have worked on numerous BMW's prior, R, K, F, etc. I thought it was the usual battery and fuel pump corrosion. Upon getting the bike home I replaced the battery, cleaned out the old fuel, injectors etc and attempted to start. No dice. So I plugged in my scan tool and had trouble codes 0335 and 0385. Pointing to the HES. Verified I was getting spark on each side. Compression was excellent 175+. No fuel spray from injectors. I have 12v at the injectors but no pulse from the Motronic. Has fuel pressure, (fuel coming from lines and ground the injector manually and got excellent fuel spray. Next step I hooked up my Picoscope and verified I was only getting one signal from HES, (side note Voltage was low as I was using a spare battery that was older with a booster). See attached captures. 

 

So I ordered a new HES from EME, installed as procedure called out. Got everything lined up at TDC, spun the HES plate to get the fuel pump to pulse and it did. Reset Motronic, pulled Fuse #5 AND disconnected battery overnight. Put everything back together and still no start (also did twist grip twice open). Hooked up the picoscope again to confirm signals and got two clear square waves 180 degrees apart. See attached. You can also see the voltage during cranking with new battery.

 

After this I was stumped, wondered if there was too much voltage drop or connection issue. Traced wires to run switch and clear (multimeter continuity/resistance), as well as HES signal wires to motronic. Inspected starter and wondered if there was a draw. Cleaned contacts, ground and verified all good. Cleaned main transmission ground, ECM (brown wire) ground and verified voltage on fuse #5 during cranking 10.5-11.5v.

 

I'm at a loss now, still no pulse from injectors. Am I missing something? I thought it highly unlikely that the motronic failed but now not so certain. I don't want to just throw parts at it. Any and all help is GREATLY appreciated.

 

 

[dirtrider]

57 minutes ago, lskustumz said:

Hello Everyone,

   First time poster, long time lurker and in need of some experienced help. I have a 2004 R1150R with 11k miles, NON-ABS bike that is in a no start condition. Some background. I'd like to consider myself pretty mechanically and technically inclined (but humbled many times...lol). Prior owner let it sit and battery died, old fuel (about a year) and got this as a project bike. I have worked on numerous BMW's prior, R, K, F, etc. I thought it was the usual battery and fuel pump corrosion. Upon getting the bike home I replaced the battery, cleaned out the old fuel, injectors etc and attempted to start. No dice. So I plugged in my scan tool and had trouble codes 0335 and 0385. Pointing to the HES. Verified I was getting spark on each side. Compression was excellent 175+. No fuel spray from injectors. I have 12v at the injectors but no pulse from the Motronic. Has fuel pressure, (fuel coming from lines and ground the injector manually and got excellent fuel spray. Next step I hooked up my Picoscope and verified I was only getting one signal from HES, (side note Voltage was low as I was using a spare battery that was older with a booster). See attached captures. 

 

So I ordered a new HES from EME, installed as procedure called out. Got everything lined up at TDC, spun the HES plate to get the fuel pump to pulse and it did. Reset Motronic, pulled Fuse #5 AND disconnected battery overnight. Put everything back together and still no start (also did twist grip twice open). Hooked up the picoscope again to confirm signals and got two clear square waves 180 degrees apart. See attached. You can also see the voltage during cranking with new battery.

 

After this I was stumped, wondered if there was too much voltage drop or connection issue. Traced wires to run switch and clear (multimeter continuity/resistance), as well as HES signal wires to motronic. Inspected starter and wondered if there was a draw. Cleaned contacts, ground and verified all good. Cleaned main transmission ground, ECM (brown wire) ground and verified voltage on fuse #5 during cranking 10.5-11.5v.

 

I'm at a loss now, still no pulse from injectors. Am I missing something? I thought it highly unlikely that the motronic failed but now not so certain. I don't want to just throw parts at it. Any and all help is GREATLY appreciated.

 

 

Afternoon  lskustumz

 

You are at the point that you should put NOID light across one of the injector connections to see if the Motronic is actually giving you a continuous flash as you crank the engine over with the starter. If you don't have access to a NOID light then a 12v diode will work or any LED that is resisted to live at 12v.  

 

If you are getting a good injector flashing as the engine spins then you will probably need to go back to the fuel system & do a fuel return hose flow test. I know you got a nice spray out of the injector but just a little fuel spray can look like a LOT when sprayed into the air. I little (fine mist) spray won't start the engine. 

 

If you are not getting a consistent NOID light flashing during engine cranking then verify the TPS is working & somewhat adjusted correctly, if your TPS  output voltage is way high the Motronic can go into flood enable situation thinking that the throttle is wide open so it shuts the fueling off to allow the cylinders to clear-flood  during cranking. 

 

You also need to have at least 10v going to the Motronic during engine cranking or it can do some very strange things. So check both the red wire B+ 12v in & green wire Ign switch 12v in during engine cranking. Maybe also do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post during engine cranking (if you lose much there it can effect injector triggering). 

 

[lskustumz]

Thank you. When I hooked my scope to the injector with an attenuator I did not see anything. I will try the NOID/LED.

 

As for the fuel supply I will check that again as well. It was a lot fuel for the second I pulsed it. Enough to cover the fill 1/8" bottom of an aerosol can cap. I even went to the extent (for time saving) to hold the fuel hose over a bucket and attempt hold my thumb over it, sprayed like it would with your thumb over your sprinkler hose. 

 

I have not checked the TPS. I will perform that check as well. 

 

As for the voltage to Motronic it showed 10.5-11.5v while cranking at Fuse #5 test pad. I will check the ignition switch and grounds.

 

Thank you very much for your assistance. Hopefully will try these tests within the next day or so and report back.

[dirtrider]

9 minutes ago, lskustumz said:

Thank you. When I hooked my scope to the injector with an attenuator I did not see anything. I will try the NOID/LED.

 

As for the fuel supply I will check that again as well. It was a lot fuel for the second I pulsed it. Enough to cover the fill 1/8" bottom of an aerosol can cap. I even went to the extent (for time saving) to hold the fuel hose over a bucket and attempt hold my thumb over it, sprayed like it would with your thumb over your sprinkler hose. 

 

I have not checked the TPS. I will perform that check as well. 

 

As for the voltage to Motronic it showed 10.5-11.5v while cranking at Fuse #5 test pad. I will check the ignition switch and grounds.

 

Thank you very much for your assistance. Hopefully will try these tests within the next day or so and report back.

Evening lskustumz

 

As for the fuel supply I will check that again as well. It was a lot fuel for the second I pulsed it. Enough to cover the fill 1/8" bottom of an aerosol can cap. I even went to the extent (for time saving) to hold the fuel hose over a bucket and attempt hold my thumb over it, sprayed like it would with your thumb over your sprinkler hose.-- That is not a very good test for ENOUGH fuel flow at ENOUGH pressure as you can have a full pencil sized stream of fuel flowing at 30 psi & that won't give you enough fuel spray to start it.

 

The best test  is to see how much fuel you have coming out of the fuel return hose (from the rear or pressure regulator) as THAT tells you that the pump/pump-sock/filter can pass ENOUGH fuel at ENOUGH pressure to run the darn thing.

It takes 40+psi just to get past the pressure regulator & return so if you have return fuel flow that means it is making enough pressure  (40+ psi) then if you have a decent flow coming out that is the amount of fuel available to run the engine at 40+psi that the injectors need)

[lskustumz]

4 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Evening lskustumz

 

As for the fuel supply I will check that again as well. It was a lot fuel for the second I pulsed it. Enough to cover the fill 1/8" bottom of an aerosol can cap. I even went to the extent (for time saving) to hold the fuel hose over a bucket and attempt hold my thumb over it, sprayed like it would with your thumb over your sprinkler hose.-- That is not a very good test for ENOUGH fuel flow at ENOUGH pressure as you can have a full pencil sized stream of fuel flowing at 30 psi & that won't give you enough fuel spry to start it.

 

The best test  is to see how much fuel you have coming out of the fuel return hose (from the rear or pressure regulator) as THAT tells you that the pump/pump-sock/filter can pass ENOUGH fuel at ENOUGH pressure to run the darn thing.

It takes 40+psi just to get past the pressure regulator & return so if you have return fuel flow that means it is making enough pressure  (40+ psi) then if you have a decent flow that is amount available to run the engine at 40+psi that the injectors need)

Copy that. Will do. 

 

Thanks again!

[lskustumz]

Ok quick report back.

You are at the point that you should put NOID light across one of the injector connections to see if the Motronic is actually giving you a continuous flash as you crank the engine over with the starter. If you don't have access to a NOID light then a 12v diode will work or any LED that is resisted to live at 12v.  Tried an LED an had no light. Uncertain of the LED so I will revisit this with the proper known good LED/NOID tool.

 

If you are getting a good injector flashing as the engine spins then you will probably need to go back to the fuel system & do a fuel return hose flow test. I know you got a nice spray out of the injector but just a little fuel spray can look like a LOT when sprayed into the air. I little (fine mist) spray won't start the engine. Disconnected return and turned on, flowed about 350cc in about 4-5 seconds. Interesting part was when I turn the run switch on, it was pulsing the pump(not cranking, just on)... it had not done that before. 

 

If you are not getting a consistent NOID light flashing during engine cranking then verify the TPS is working & somewhat adjusted correctly, if your TPS  output voltage is way high the Motronic can go into flood enable situation thinking that the throttle is wide open so it shuts the fueling off to allow the cylinders to clear-flood  during cranking. This was a weird one. TPS initially showed 1.238v. I adjusted the cables to make sure ALL tension was removed and went to 0.610v. 4.77v at WOT.

 

You also need to have at least 10v going to the Motronic during engine cranking or it can do some very strange things. So check both the red wire B+ 12v in & green wire Ign switch 12v in during engine cranking. Maybe also do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post during engine cranking (if you lose much there it can effect injector triggering).  At the battery terminals 12.93v static, 12.65v key on, 12.60v red wire at key switch, 12.60v at green wire at ignition switch. During cranking, its lowest after was 10.5v, highest was 11.5v. Battery was not on charger overnight but is new.

 

Again thank you all for your help.

 

 

[dirtrider]

 

Morning lskustumz

 

You are at the point that you should put NOID light across one of the injector connections to see if the Motronic is actually giving you a continuous flash as you crank the engine over with the starter. If you don't have access to a NOID light then a 12v diode will work or any LED that is resisted to live at 12v.  Tried an LED an had no light. Uncertain of the LED so I will revisit this with the proper known good LED/NOID tool.-- The LED is directional, so try reversing it as it will only work if the polarity is correct.  

 

If you are getting a good injector flashing as the engine spins then you will probably need to go back to the fuel system & do a fuel return hose flow test. I know you got a nice spray out of the injector but just a little fuel spray can look like a LOT when sprayed into the air. I little (fine mist) spray won't start the engine. Disconnected return and turned on, flowed about 350cc in about 4-5 seconds. Interesting part was when I turn the run switch on, it was pulsing the pump(not cranking, just on)... it had not done that before. -- Something is REALLY strange with this. You should ONLY have return hose  flow for 1-2 seconds at key-ON, then it should stop until the engine is actually cranking, or you turn key off then back on again (that should give you another 1-2 seconds of flow. Are you testing on the return hose COMING FROM THE REAR?? Do not test on the return hose coming from the fuel tank side. 

That pulsing pump (key ON but not cranking) needs to be found & addressed.  About the only thing that commonly causes that is an errant or strange HES signal. If the fuel pump is really  pulsing on/off/on/off with JUST the key-ON  then try disconnecting the HES to see if that stops it. 

_____________________________________________________

 

If you are not getting a consistent NOID light flashing during engine cranking then verify the TPS is working & somewhat adjusted correctly, if your TPS  output voltage is way high the Motronic can go into flood enable situation thinking that the throttle is wide open so it shuts the fueling off to allow the cylinders to clear-flood  during cranking. This was a weird one. TPS initially showed 1.238v. I adjusted the cables to make sure ALL tension was removed and went to 0.610v. 4.77v at WOT.-- Is the choke completely OFF? If the choke is OFF & the cables at the TB cams are loose then you want to see the TPS voltage under .399V at closed throttle Probably want it between .365v & .380V. The TPS voltage slightly above .399v (like your .610v) is not your starting problem though.     

 

You also need to have at least 10v going to the Motronic during engine cranking or it can do some very strange things. So check both the red wire B+ 12v in & green wire Ign switch 12v in during engine cranking. Maybe also do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post during engine cranking (if you lose much there it can effect injector triggering).  At the battery terminals 12.93v static, 12.65v key on, 12.60v red wire at key switch, 12.60v at green wire at ignition switch. During cranking, its lowest after was 10.5v, highest was 11.5v. Battery was not on charger overnight but is new.-- You need to check the voltage  going into the Motronic (see below). Both full time voltage (red wire) & ignition switch ON voltage (green wire). Then do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post. Then subtract the voltage drop measured on the brown Motronic grounds from the supply voltage-in. That is the voltage the Motronic is actually trying to function with. 

 

One thing I should have mentioned yesterday-- If you have a timing light put that on one of the cylinders, then crank it, then point the timing light it into the timing hole (or bring the pistons up to TDC then mark the front belt pulley to crankcase at TDC then point the timing light there.  You need to see the timing light flashing at or near TDC cranking. All the spark in the world won't do any good if it isn't coming at the correct time.

 

Motronic terminals at Motronic

 

#23 red/yellow    (full time 12v)

#1  green/black  (ignition switch-ON 12v) 

#34 brown           (Ground)

#21 brown           (Ground)

[lskustumz]

I believe I had the polarity correct, (long lead as anode). Will try again. I wasn't sure if the LED was 12v, it was possible it was a 5v.

 

Yes, very weird, I also heard the Fuel pump relay jittering (pulsing). Prior to this test, it only did the single  pulse as normal that you described. I supposed it's possible that the HES cup was on the fringe of open/close? Bad relay? Just a thought.  Yes, this was the hose coming form the rear, low pressure after FPR correct? So I will need to double check that as well.

 

Choke was completely off. 

 

Understood about the power and grounds AT the Motronic now, I may have been too far upstream. 

 

As for spark, I will check that as well. I have not gone back to spark yet, as I still haven't gotten the fuel to be sprayed out the injector without my intervention (ie, grounding it myself).

 

Thanks again for your help. Hopefully will have some time tonight to take a look. 

 

 

[dirtrider]

17 minutes ago, lskustumz said:

I believe I had the polarity correct, (long lead as anode). Will try again. I wasn't sure if the LED was 12v, it was possible it was a 5v.

 

Yes, very weird, I also heard the Fuel pump relay jittering (pulsing). Prior to this test, it only did the single  pulse as normal that you described. I supposed it's possible that the HES cup was on the fringe of open/close? Bad relay? Just a thought.  Yes, this was the hose coming form the rear, low pressure after FPR correct? So I will need to double check that as well.

 

Choke was completely off. 

 

Understood about the power and grounds AT the Motronic now, I may have been too far upstream. 

 

As for spark, I will check that as well. I have not gone back to spark yet, as I still haven't gotten the fuel to be sprayed out the injector without my intervention (ie, grounding it myself).

 

Thanks again for your help. Hopefully will have some time tonight to take a look. 

 

 

Afternoon lskustumz

 

Yes, very weird, I also heard the Fuel pump relay jittering (pulsing). Prior to this test, it only did the single  pulse as normal that you described. I supposed it's possible that the HES cup was on the fringe of open/close? Bad relay? Just a thought.--- The sensor could be right on the edge of the cup slot but for it to keep triggering you would think that something would have to be sightly moving the crankshaft. If you can't find anything causing the problem then you might remove the pulley & check the cup installation. If the cup moved a little during pulley installation (cup wasn't properly glued to the back of pulley) then the cup can rub on the sensor & fill the sensor area  with metallic shavings. If there are metallic shaving in the sensor that can case some weird Motronic triggering.  

 

Yes, this was the hose coming form the rear, low pressure after FPR correct? So I will need to double check that as well.--- Yes, "hose coming from the rear" is the correct hose for return hose fuel flow testing. 

 

Another quick thought, if you had an old (not modern electronic) battery charger on that motorcycle while testing then it might be possible that charger output is not well controlled so it possibly could be causing the Motronic to pick that up as an HES signal. (something to look into anyhow) 

[lskustumz]

The cup was no longer glued to the pulley, but did make sure the cup itself was clocked to the crankshaft via index tab. Will double check.

 

I try to disconnect the charger when testing/starting but even then if I forgot it is a modern digitally controlled charger. 

[lskustumz]

13 hours ago, dirtrider said:

 

Morning lskustumz

 

You are at the point that you should put NOID light across one of the injector connections to see if the Motronic is actually giving you a continuous flash as you crank the engine over with the starter. If you don't have access to a NOID light then a 12v diode will work or any LED that is resisted to live at 12v.  Tried an LED an had no light. Uncertain of the LED so I will revisit this with the proper known good LED/NOID tool.-- The LED is directional, so try reversing it as it will only work if the polarity is correct.  

 

If you are getting a good injector flashing as the engine spins then you will probably need to go back to the fuel system & do a fuel return hose flow test. I know you got a nice spray out of the injector but just a little fuel spray can look like a LOT when sprayed into the air. I little (fine mist) spray won't start the engine. Disconnected return and turned on, flowed about 350cc in about 4-5 seconds. Interesting part was when I turn the run switch on, it was pulsing the pump(not cranking, just on)... it had not done that before. -- Something is REALLY strange with this. You should ONLY have return hose  flow for 1-2 seconds at key-ON, then it should stop until the engine is actually cranking, or you turn key off then back on again (that should give you another 1-2 seconds of flow. Are you testing on the return hose COMING FROM THE REAR?? Do not test on the return hose coming from the fuel tank side. 

That pulsing pump (key ON but not cranking) needs to be found & addressed.  About the only thing that commonly causes that is an errant or strange HES signal. If the fuel pump is really  pulsing on/off/on/off with JUST the key-ON  then try disconnecting the HES to see if that stops it. 

_____________________________________________________

 

If you are not getting a consistent NOID light flashing during engine cranking then verify the TPS is working & somewhat adjusted correctly, if your TPS  output voltage is way high the Motronic can go into flood enable situation thinking that the throttle is wide open so it shuts the fueling off to allow the cylinders to clear-flood  during cranking. This was a weird one. TPS initially showed 1.238v. I adjusted the cables to make sure ALL tension was removed and went to 0.610v. 4.77v at WOT.-- Is the choke completely OFF? If the choke is OFF & the cables at the TB cams are loose then you want to see the TPS voltage under .399V at closed throttle Probably want it between .365v & .380V. The TPS voltage slightly above .399v (like your .610v) is not your starting problem though.     

 

You also need to have at least 10v going to the Motronic during engine cranking or it can do some very strange things. So check both the red wire B+ 12v in & green wire Ign switch 12v in during engine cranking. Maybe also do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post during engine cranking (if you lose much there it can effect injector triggering).  At the battery terminals 12.93v static, 12.65v key on, 12.60v red wire at key switch, 12.60v at green wire at ignition switch. During cranking, its lowest after was 10.5v, highest was 11.5v. Battery was not on charger overnight but is new.-- You need to check the voltage  going into the Motronic (see below). Both full time voltage (red wire) & ignition switch ON voltage (green wire). Then do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post. Then subtract the voltage drop measured on the brown Motronic grounds from the supply voltage-in. That is the voltage the Motronic is actually trying to function with. 

 

One thing I should have mentioned yesterday-- If you have a timing light put that on one of the cylinders, then crank it, then point the timing light it into the timing hole (or bring the pistons up to TDC then mark the front belt pulley to crankcase at TDC then point the timing light there.  You need to see the timing light flashing at or near TDC cranking. All the spark in the world won't do any good if it isn't coming at the correct time.

 

Motronic terminals at Motronic

 

#23 red/yellow    (full time 12v)

#1  green/black  (ignition switch-ON 12v) 

#34 brown           (Ground)

#21 brown           (Ground)

I should have asked this beforehand, is there a pinout of the motronic connector? Thanks again.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, lskustumz said:

I should have asked this beforehand, is there a pinout of the motronic connector? Thanks again.

Morning  lskustumz

 

Yes, sort of anyhow.  But there are some differences between the 1150 bikes.

 

So tell me what country your motorcycle was originally sold in, exactly what model you have, if it's a single spark (2 spark plugs) or a twin spark (4 spark plugs) engine. 

 

Or just PM (Personal Message)  me the last 7 digits of your Vin (Vehicle Identification Number).

 

It's not straight forward as the actual connector with cavity numbers are easy but where the wires going into those cavities originate are somewhat difficult in one single picture as the wires can terminate on many different pages on the official BMW wire diagrams. 

 

The best for all-on-one-or-two-pages is the Clymer manual but unfortunately those as pretty generic so miss exact details on many common models, it also miss informs on a lot of sub-models, early model changes, and outlier bikes. 

[lskustumz]

On 4/5/2023 at 3:19 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning  lskustumz

 

Yes, sort of anyhow.  But there are some differences between the 1150 bikes.

 

So tell me what country your motorcycle was originally sold in, exactly what model you have, if it's a single spark (2 spark plugs) or a twin spark (4 spark plugs) engine. 

 

Or just PM (Personal Message)  me the last 7 digits of your Vin (Vehicle Identification Number).

 

It's not straight forward as the actual connector with cavity numbers are easy but where the wires going into those cavities originate are somewhat difficult in one single picture as the wires can terminate on many different pages on the official BMW wire diagrams. 

 

The best for all-on-one-or-two-pages is the Clymer manual but unfortunately those as pretty generic so miss exact details on many common models, it also miss informs on a lot of sub-models, early model changes, and outlier bikes. 

 

On 4/4/2023 at 3:48 AM, dirtrider said:

 

Morning lskustumz

 

You are at the point that you should put NOID light across one of the injector connections to see if the Motronic is actually giving you a continuous flash as you crank the engine over with the starter. If you don't have access to a NOID light then a 12v diode will work or any LED that is resisted to live at 12v.  Tried an LED an had no light. Uncertain of the LED so I will revisit this with the proper known good LED/NOID tool.-- The LED is directional, so try reversing it as it will only work if the polarity is correct.  

 

If you are getting a good injector flashing as the engine spins then you will probably need to go back to the fuel system & do a fuel return hose flow test. I know you got a nice spray out of the injector but just a little fuel spray can look like a LOT when sprayed into the air. I little (fine mist) spray won't start the engine. Disconnected return and turned on, flowed about 350cc in about 4-5 seconds. Interesting part was when I turn the run switch on, it was pulsing the pump(not cranking, just on)... it had not done that before. -- Something is REALLY strange with this. You should ONLY have return hose  flow for 1-2 seconds at key-ON, then it should stop until the engine is actually cranking, or you turn key off then back on again (that should give you another 1-2 seconds of flow. Are you testing on the return hose COMING FROM THE REAR?? Do not test on the return hose coming from the fuel tank side. 

That pulsing pump (key ON but not cranking) needs to be found & addressed.  About the only thing that commonly causes that is an errant or strange HES signal. If the fuel pump is really  pulsing on/off/on/off with JUST the key-ON  then try disconnecting the HES to see if that stops it. 

_____________________________________________________

 

If you are not getting a consistent NOID light flashing during engine cranking then verify the TPS is working & somewhat adjusted correctly, if your TPS  output voltage is way high the Motronic can go into flood enable situation thinking that the throttle is wide open so it shuts the fueling off to allow the cylinders to clear-flood  during cranking. This was a weird one. TPS initially showed 1.238v. I adjusted the cables to make sure ALL tension was removed and went to 0.610v. 4.77v at WOT.-- Is the choke completely OFF? If the choke is OFF & the cables at the TB cams are loose then you want to see the TPS voltage under .399V at closed throttle Probably want it between .365v & .380V. The TPS voltage slightly above .399v (like your .610v) is not your starting problem though.     

 

You also need to have at least 10v going to the Motronic during engine cranking or it can do some very strange things. So check both the red wire B+ 12v in & green wire Ign switch 12v in during engine cranking. Maybe also do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post during engine cranking (if you lose much there it can effect injector triggering).  At the battery terminals 12.93v static, 12.65v key on, 12.60v red wire at key switch, 12.60v at green wire at ignition switch. During cranking, its lowest after was 10.5v, highest was 11.5v. Battery was not on charger overnight but is new.-- You need to check the voltage  going into the Motronic (see below). Both full time voltage (red wire) & ignition switch ON voltage (green wire). Then do a voltage drop test between the Motronic low (grounds) & the battery (-) post. Then subtract the voltage drop measured on the brown Motronic grounds from the supply voltage-in. That is the voltage the Motronic is actually trying to function with. 

 

One thing I should have mentioned yesterday-- If you have a timing light put that on one of the cylinders, then crank it, then point the timing light it into the timing hole (or bring the pistons up to TDC then mark the front belt pulley to crankcase at TDC then point the timing light there.  You need to see the timing light flashing at or near TDC cranking. All the spark in the world won't do any good if it isn't coming at the correct time.

 

Motronic terminals at Motronic

 

#23 red/yellow    (full time 12v)

#1  green/black  (ignition switch-ON 12v) 

#34 brown           (Ground)

#21 brown           (Ground)

Ok, so finally got around to doing the voltage test. I measured a .03v drop to Motronic. With key on (headlight relay unplugged) it measured 12.4v. 12.37v at the terminals. So I don't think there is a ground issue., thoughts?

 

Still having a continuous fuel pump. No jittering. But also doesn't do the standard 2 second pulse when initially turned on. HES is unplugged during this.

 

At loss... losing some hope...

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, lskustumz said:

 

Ok, so finally got around to doing the voltage test. I measured a .03v drop to Motronic. With key on (headlight relay unplugged) it measured 12.4v. 12.37v at the terminals. So I don't think there is a ground issue., thoughts?

 

Still having a continuous fuel pump. No jittering. But also doesn't do the standard 2 second pulse when initially turned on. HES is unplugged during this.

 

At loss... losing some hope...

Afternoon lskustumz

 

You are running out of  (EASY) options,

 

It is difficult to advise at this point without having that motorcycle in front of me but probably my next move would be to__

 

Disconnect the o2 sensor & disconnect the TPS sensor, remove all the relays except the  Fuel pump relay & Engine electronics relay, then turn key to on & see if the jittering is gone. If not then very possibly a Motronic issue, if it is gone then start reinstalling everything one at a time until the problem returns (at least you will know where to look then).

 

 

[lskustumz]

32 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon lskustumz

 

You are running out of  (EASY) options,

 

It is difficult to advise at this point without having that motorcycle in front of me but probably my next move would be to__

 

Disconnect the o2 sensor & disconnect the TPS sensor, remove all the relays except the  Fuel pump relay & Engine electronics relay, then turn key to on & see if the jittering is gone. If not then very possibly a Motronic issue, if it is gone then start reinstalling everything one at a time until the problem returns (at least you will know where to look then).

 

 

Yup, not a easy pill to swallow. 12v comes on immediately for the fuel pump and injectors without turning over. One step at a time... I'll report back as I go through each scenario. 

[lskustumz]

Also, not sure if its normal, but the top of the Motronic got quite warm, like 150*F. Possible burnt transistor? I guess nothing is out of the question.

[dirtrider]

20 minutes ago, lskustumz said:

Also, not sure if its normal, but the top of the Motronic got quite warm, like 150*F. Possible burnt transistor? I guess nothing is out of the question.

Afternoon lskustumz

 

Or possibly one of the controlled circuits is overloading one of it's drivers.

[lskustumz]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon lskustumz

 

Or possibly one of the controlled circuits is overloading one of it's drivers.

Interesting discovery, the pump circuit is now pulsing every 2 seconds or so. Disconnect the tank/pump. No power to injectors. Now when I touch my 12v test light to the pump pin on connector it lights up and starts the relay pulsing... very odd.

[dirtrider]

12 hours ago, lskustumz said:

Interesting discovery, the pump circuit is now pulsing every 2 seconds or so. Disconnect the tank/pump. No power to injectors. Now when I touch my 12v test light to the pump pin on connector it lights up and starts the relay pulsing... very odd.

Morning lskustumz

 

Was the o2 sensor, TPS sensor, all other relays except the  Fuel pump relay & Engine electronics relay removed during this test? (if not then disconnect those & re-test)

 

Maybe even remove the turn signal relay & test again.

 

Also, put your voltmeter between one of the green stick coil wires & a good clean ground to see what the key-on circuit supply voltage is doing during this test. You need that to stay above 11v. 

 

Also see if you can monitor the Motronic 12v (ignition switch 12v in) during the test. You need a stable Motronic supply voltage or it can go nuts. 

 

This is a difficult one without having that motorcycle in front of me & test meters in hand.  

 

It keeps sort of pointing to the Motronic so we need to try everything we can to try to find something else that makes it look like a Motronic problem.  

 

 

[lskustumz]

  I wanted to update this thread for those that were following as well as for future readers that may be in my predicament.

 

Well... short story is the bike is now running.

 

Slightly longer story. I verified the questionable circuits and relays. Repaired the looms that had deteriorated, verified all connections. Plugged everything back in. Installed new (to me) motronic. Said a small prayer, turned on ignition then run switch and heard the pump prime then stop. (whew...). Then performed TPS procedure. Turned everything off, then back on and with the injectors firing outside the the TBs, I hit the starter switch and saw fuel spraying out of the injectors. (Yay!) Then put everything back together and fired it up. Did a quick TB synchronization to get close. Then put it all back together for a ride. Runs great! need a few adjustments such as final TB sync and choke lever adjustment.

 

A few observations... I noticed the new motronic did not get hot like the other one did even after the brief running. I am now certain that something within the motronic that controls the injectors, fuel circuit had been damaged somehow. Whether it be voltage overload, draw I'm not certain. I might make it a side project to diagnose the ECU later to see what may have caused the failure.

 

I will point out that it seems to be a telltale sign of motronic failure when the fuel pump timing is erratic/non-consistent. It seems this function is solely controlled by the motronic.

 

Hopefully this information can help someone else.

 

Thanks again to dirtrider for all his help!