Engine and Final drive fluid change (and, "oh no, I have a leak!!")

[Scott9999]

Some of my new threads lately have reflected a fairly low mechanical IQ (as well as maybe the rest of my aging brain), and this one will be no different.

 

Final Drive change:  All went well, once I knew the facts, i.e. drain T45, fill 8mm allen.

What else could go wrong?  Well, the fill is supposed to be 180ml.  I had a Pyrex glass 2 cup beaker, also demarcated in L/ML, and I measured just a tad above the line between 175mm and 200mm.  I just happen to have a pump which attached to the bottle for filling a car differential.  I simply dipped it into the cup and pumped the lube in the fill hole, S-L-O-W-L-Y.  Was impressed by that little pump, i.e. it appeared to pump through all the lube, with very little remaining in the line.

 

 

So, again, what could go wrong.  Well, in my perfectionist manner, the thought came to me: 

 

Quote

"I know what you're thinking. Did he fill 180 ml, 182 ml, or only 177 ml? Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement, I've kinda lost track myself. But being as this is a LubriMatic 4CC Fluid Pump, the most accurate lube pump in the world, and could blow your final drive clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?' Well, do ya, punk?”

 

 

Workin' in my garage, lately, I've NEVER felt lucky.   

 

So, comedy aside, how accurate do we have to be?  I mean, the chances are that there's maybe residual lube still in the housing, could be 10ml, could be 30ml, who knows?  Then, there's those couple of drops left in the glass beaker (don't tell my wife I borrowed it, by the way; she'll start claiming everything she makes with it tastes like hydraulic lube 🤣)  Maybe a couple of more ML left in the pump.   I was thinking as I was filling it, "Hmm, maybe I should have just filled to a measured 180 or 185ml.

 

Part 2:

 

Question:  When it comes to "O" rings, what difference does 4MM mean?

Answer:  The difference between a completed oil change, and a LEAKING oil change.

 

I picked up what I thought were the proper copper washers for the engine drain plug, and evidently errored, from the puddle I found on the floor in the garage the next day.  (Yeah, it was torqued to 42NM.)

I'm not certain the material (copper vs aluminum) matters as much as the size (see note below):

 

Copper...:    ID*OD*T: .20MMx24MMx1.5MM
Aluminum:  ID*OD*T: .16MMx20MMx1.5MM

 

I'm going to reuse the old crush washer, try capture the oil into a clean container to reuse it, and replace the washer. 

 

I purchased these for next time:

M16 Oil Drain Plug Gaskets Crush Washers Seals Rings Fit for BMW Motorcycle, Replacement for The Part # 07 11 9 963 252, 10 Pack

 

I found this on a terrific web site that I'll bet none of you ever heard of (yes, that's a joke):

02

Gasket ring

A20X24-AL

1

07119963340

$0.38

 

I'm sure I've seen this site, RealOem before, but forgot about it, and no longer have it in my web links.  I was shocked that it even considers the month and year the bike was made.  Outstanding resource.

However, BMW's part description does not give ID/OD/T specifics, but I'm assuming what I bought at the link above is accurate, or at least more accurate than the COPPER washer's I bought.

 

As far as copper vs aluminum, I'll liberally plagiarize from another site: 🙄

 

Quote

Make sure you use aluminum or copper in the location originally installed. There is a difference. Copper is harder than aluminum so aluminum will be used in applications that have a lower torque spec. Copper is for higher torque specs. The engine crankcase drain uses a aluminum crush washer.

 

I've change oil on cars, motorcycles, lawn mowers, all kinds of stuff for 50+ years, and have never once in my life experienced a post change oil leak, until now.   I'm angry with myself.  As has been the case of late, I made a 15 or 20 minute job into an hours, even days long death march, and the worst of it is I failed in the damn task to boot.

 

So, this is just FYI for the noobies and ham-fisted wrenches out there:  Tiny, 4MM details matter, even for something as simple as an oil change.

 

PS:  Every good story needs a post script. 😁

As I was doing the final drive change, I was initially furious that BMW put a 8MM 6 mm(!!!!) Allen filler bolt into a bike that had nearly all Torx screws.   (dang it!)

However, after thinking about it a while, and adding to the "knowledge base" the simple difference between using copper versus aluminum for a drain washer, then recalling that the final drive drain plug has a rubber "O" ring while the fill plug has a copper washer, I decided to give the BMW engineers more the benefit of my doubts.  I'm guessing that there's an engineering reason for each of those decisions.  In fact, Germans are generally a very precise, detail orientated people in general.   I'm guessing the decision to go Allen over Torx, was to prevent overtightening the filler bolt.  The rubber O ring on the final drive drain plug?  Not certain, but that plug seems designed to ensure that there's no over penetration into the case, so that might have something to do with that design.  Both filler and drain plugs are just over finger tight, at 20 NM.  The engine drain plug (washer) I've already covered, and the filler plug is plastic.  All interesting choices.

 

In fact, while I was busy overthinking everything and botching up the job, I considered WHERE the fill hole is on the final drive.  It's at an angle, maybe 1:30, 2:00 o'clock looking at the drive from the side of the bike.  Why not on top?  My guess is that location prevents overfilling the final drive.  The 180 ML spec is probably just at where gravity would start dripping the gear oil down the side of the final drive case.

 

Just thinking about this stuff ... your thoughts?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

34 minutes ago, Scott9999 said:

Some of my new threads lately have reflected a fairly low mechanical IQ (as well as maybe the rest of my aging brain), and this one will be no different.

 

Final Drive change:  All went well, once I knew the facts, i.e. drain T45, fill 8mm allen.

What else could go wrong?  Well, the fill is supposed to be 180ml.  I had a Pyrex glass 2 cup beaker, also demarcated in L/ML, and I measured just a tad above the line between 175mm and 200mm.  I just happen to have a pump which attached to the bottle for filling a car differential.  I simply dipped it into the cup and pumped the lube in the fill hole, S-L-O-W-L-Y.  Was impressed by that little pump, i.e. it appeared to pump through all the lube, with very little remaining in the line.

 

So, again, what could go wrong.  Well, in my perfectionist manner, the thought came to me: 

 

 Workin' in my garage, lately, I've NEVER felt lucky.   

 

So, comedy aside, how accurate do we have to be?  I mean, the chances are that there's maybe residual lube still in the housing, could be 10ml, could be 30ml, who knows?  Then, there's those couple of drops left in the glass beaker (don't tell my wife I borrowed it, by the way; she'll start claiming everything she makes with it tastes like hydraulic lube 🤣)  Maybe a couple of more ML left in the pump.   I was thinking as I was filling it, "Hmm, maybe I should have just filled to a measured 180 or 185ml.

 

Part 2:

 

Question:  When it comes to "O" rings, what difference does 4MM mean?

Answer:  The difference between a completed oil change, and a LEAKING oil change.

 

I picked up what I thought were the proper copper washers for the engine drain plug, and evidently errored, from the puddle I found on the floor in the garage the next day.  (Yeah, it was torqued to 42NM.)

I'm not certain the material (copper vs aluminum) matters as much as the size (see note below):

 

Copper...:    ID*OD*T: .20MMx24MMx1.5MM
Aluminum:  ID*OD*T: .16MMx20MMx1.5MM

 

I'm going to reuse the old crush washer, try capture the oil into a clean container to reuse it, and replace the washer. 

 

I purchased these for next time:

M16 Oil Drain Plug Gaskets Crush Washers Seals Rings Fit for BMW Motorcycle, Replacement for The Part # 07 11 9 963 252, 10 Pack

 

I found this on a terrific web site that I'll bet none of you ever heard of (yes, that's a joke):

02

Gasket ring

A20X24-AL

1

07119963340

$0.38

 

I'm sure I've seen this site, RealOem before, but forgot about it, and no longer have it in my web links.  I was shocked that it even considers the month and year the bike was made.  Outstanding resource.

However, BMW's part description does not give ID/OD/T specifics, but I'm assuming what I bought at the link above is accurate, or at least more accurate than the COPPER washer's I bought.

 

As far as copper vs aluminum, I'll liberally plagiarize from another site: 🙄

 

 

I've change oil on cars, motorcycles, lawn mowers, all kinds of stuff for 50+ years, and have never once in my life experienced a post change oil leak, until now.   I'm angry with myself.  As has been the case of late, I made a 15 or 20 minute job into an hours, even days long death march, and the worst of it is I failed in the damn task to boot.

 

So, this is just FYI for the noobies and ham-fisted wrenches out there:  Tiny, 4MM details matter, even for something as simple as an oil change.

 

PS:  Every good story needs a post script. 😁

As I was doing the final drive change, I was initially furious that BMW put a 8MM Allen filler bolt into a bike that had nearly all Torx screws.  

However, after thinking about it a while, and adding to the "knowledge base" the simple difference between using copper versus aluminum for a drain washer, then recalling that the final drive drain plug has a rubber "O" ring while the fill plug has a copper washer, I decided to give the BMW engineers more the benefit of my doubts.  I'm guessing that there's an engineering reason for each of those decisions.  In fact, Germans are generally a very precise, detail orientated people in general.   I'm guessing the decision to go Allen over Torx, was to prevent overtightening the filler bolt.  The rubber O ring on the final drive drain plug?  Not certain, but that plug seems designed to ensure that there's no over penetration into the case, so that might have something to do with that design.  Both filler and drain plugs are just over finger tight, at 20 NM.  The engine drain plug (washer) I've already covered, and the filler plug is plastic.  All interesting choices.

 

In fact, while I was busy overthinking everything and botching up the job, I considered WHERE the fill hole is on the final drive.  It's at an angle, maybe 1:30, 2:00 o'clock looking at the drive from the side of the bike.  Why not on top?  My guess is that location prevents overfilling the final drive.  The 180 ML spec is probably just at where gravity would start dripping the gear oil down the side of the final drive case.

 

Just thinking about this stuff ... your thoughts?

 

Morning Scott

 

Definitely use the correct drain plug washer if at all possible, that prevents seepage that you didn't count on having to deal with.

 

On the 180 cc, that  is only about 6 ounces, plus  some of that gear oil clings to the ring gear when in operation  so 6 oz sure isn't very much to begin with (drive was originally designed to use more gear oil but BMW cut that back due to leakage issues). 

 

How much gear oil was left in that pump & hose? My guess is more than you think.

 

I go simple with a funnel with a short hose on it, I then allow the funnel/hose to fully drain of clinging gear oil before removing & installing the plug (this way I am POSITIVE that I get all of the correct amount of gear oil in the drive) 

 

On the mismatched final drive plugs, there is a close clearance to the internal ring gear so that is one thing BMW had to consider, plus the housing is thin so something else to consider. 

 

My educate guess it that the final drive plug choice had more to do with what they needed for the application & what was already in production or in usage somewhere else. The company that I work for will actually design around existing small components rather than spend a bunch of money designing something new then having that component produced at a much higher cost than something that is already available.   You don't design & produce a new bolt, you design your product around existing bolts whenever possible. 

[Boxflyer]

The fill plug for the Final Drive takes a 6mm Allen (hex drive) not 8mm. 

For Allen wrenches, it’s 10mm for the engine drain plug, 8mm for the TDC access plug, and 6mm for the FD fill plug. 

[Rainman48]

I've used something cheap like this on all my BMW shaft drive motorcycles, and don't use ANY hose connected to it.  Easy to suck up EXACTLY what you need, and deliver to the final drive.  Also, make sure you drain the old FD fluid into a drain pan overnight, (especially in the dead of eternal winter) and turn the drive a couple times during the draining period to catch all the oil trapped in the gears if you're a perfectionist.

 

[Skywagon]

Scott...you're making this too hard.  Go get one of these at the beauty supply house.  They cost between $2 and $5.  All the markings are on the side.  They are precisely marked so you can be exact on the 180ml and leave behind zero residual.  Heck if your wife colors her hair she probably has one you could uhhhh borrow?.  Probably better oil in her hair than oil in her food.

 

[Lowndes]

Scott -

 

You can re-use the copper seal by annealing it.  EZPZ.  A cigarette lighter will do it, and a "jet flame" lighter will do it better.  Annealing will remove the work-hardening that happens to the copper when you "work" it, i.e. as a seal in a banjo fitting or drain plug.

 

Make a little Z stand from steel coathanger wire, put a couple of used copper seals on there, heat them up to a very pretty glowing orange (it happens very quickly), let them cool for a minute or so.  You're done.  Clean them with an old potscrubber or wet-dry sandpaper if you want.  They will be a couple of thou thinner but good as new.

 

Aluminum doesn't work as well, tends to melt first thing.

 

 

 

 

 

[Scott9999]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

Scott...you're making this too hard.  Go get one of these at the beauty supply house.  They cost between $2 and $5.  All the markings are on the side.  They are precisely marked so you can be exact on the 180ml and leave behind zero residual.  Heck if your wife colors her hair she probably has one you could uhhhh borrow?.  Probably better oil in her hair than oil in her food.

 

Yep, just being stubborn, mostly, in "not buying that one more thing to store".

 

With these - Applicator Bottle with Angled Tip 8.5 ounce (Pack of 3) - at $10 for three, I can just throw 'em away when I'm done.  (Hey, it's the patriotic American way! 😏)

Mine aren't as pretty as yours, but they'll measure out "180 ML", which I'll cross test before I use 'em to be verify, and hmmm ~~probably~~ not spill when pouring.

 

Thanks buddy, for the prod!

 

PS:  Actually, I like @Rainman48 's solution better, just seems more precise.  But thanks to ya both.

[alegerlotz]

On 3/22/2023 at 4:34 PM, Lowndes said:

You can re-use the copper seal by annealing it.  EZPZ. <truncated>

 

I bought a 30 pack on Amazon for $7.99 delivered.  For under $0.27 each, I'll go with the time savings

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Q36FZNY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&th=1