Broken Screw on Alternator Belt Cover

[DR Major]

Have the luck of a Broken Screw on Alternator Belt Cover.  Bottom screw.  In trying to use tool to get it out, the tool is now broken in there too.

 

Due to its small size, I see no way to remove w/o taking to machine shop- Can't move bike as rear end is off.

 

Wondering how much stress that screw is under.

 

Thought is - leave it alone and put the cover on w/o it.

2nd thought is to take Marine Tex and build up a position to tap a new screw into along side the old one.

 

THOUGHTS?

SUGGESTIONS?

[dirtrider]

30 minutes ago, DR Major said:

Have the luck of a Broken Screw on Alternator Belt Cover.  Bottom screw.  In trying to use tool to get it out, the tool is now broken in there too.

 

Due to its small size, I see no way to remove w/o taking to machine shop- Can't move bike as rear end is off.

 

Wondering how much stress that screw is under.

 

Thought is - leave it alone and put the cover on w/o it.

2nd thought is to take Marine Tex and build up a position to tap a new screw into along side the old one.

 

THOUGHTS?

SUGGESTIONS?

Evening David

 

It sounds like you found out the hard way that Easy-Outs are mis-named. They should really be named easily-broken-off's. 

 

Those screw removers like easy-out's or the like are hard a snails nuts so they can't be drilled out easily. 

 

Personally I just weld a washer onto the broken bolt, then weld a nut onto the washer & they usually spin right out due to welding heat.

 

In your case you might just put the cover back on when the rear is back on then ride it (or trailer it) it to a machine shop (or even a local motorcycle shop). Those places are pretty well used to removing broken bolts & screws.  

 

[DR Major]

 this one broke flush..Seems welding will not work...?

My BMW  shop is not too happy this time of year.

Maybe Velcro

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, DR Major said:

 this one broke flush..Seems welding will not work...?

My BMW  shop is not too happy this time of year.

Maybe Velcro

Afternoon David

 

I have welded many washers on flush broken bolts, even a few that were slightly recessed. You just need to find the right shop with an experienced person in that area to do it.  

[DR Major]

Thanks..

[Rougarou]

Get some reverse cut drill bits.  See if you can tap the center of the remaining screw.  Different area of the bike, but may work just the same

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

28 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Get some reverse cut drill bits.  See if you can tap the center of the remaining screw.  Different area of the bike, but may work just the same

 

 

 

Morning  Rougarou

That is going to be very difficult as he broke a screw remover (probably an Easy Out) off in the darn

thing. Those hardened little devils are about impossible to drill out in smaller fasteners

[beemer chuck]

I would find someone that TIG welds and have them center a 6mm hex nut over the broken screw. With a slim electrode they can reach in and weld the inside of the nut to the screw and easy out. If removed while still warm it should back out easily. Our fab shop at work did this regularly of 18-8 stainless steel bolts as small as 4 mm

[9Mary7]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

reverse cut drill bits

Anytime I drill out a broken bolt/screw I use these..... many times the item backs out during drilling. 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, beemer chuck said:

I would find someone that TIG welds and have them center a 6mm hex nut over the broken screw. With a slim electrode they can reach in and weld the inside of the nut to the screw and easy out. If removed while still warm it should back out easily. Our fab shop at work did this regularly of 18-8 stainless steel bolts as small as 4 mm

Morning  beemer chuck

 

I am a certified welder I find that difficult to do on smaller bolts (especially if broken off below the surface) much easier to get a solid weld using a thinner washer with a small hole in it as you then don't have to try to weld (get both the TIG stinger & the filler rod down inside a small diameter threaded nut). It is even more difficult to do with "just" a small hole nut if the broken bolt is below the surface on a vertical surface (like front of BMW engine) as the weld puddle inside the nut will usually not want to flow into the broken bolt but will want to naturally flow into the alloy around the submerged bolt. 

 

 The washer also gives you the advantage of using the larger washer diameter to shield the surrounding painted surfaces. I then simply tack-weld a nut to the washer as something to get a wrench on. 

 

If the broken bolt is in a critical casting or decorative or painted area I will usually set the washer on a large nut then use a ball-bearing  ball, or small ball peen hammer then hit it with another hammer to depress the center of the washer so the washer doesn't nest tight to the surrounding surface to prevent surface damage or discoloration from welding heat. (works pretty good for preventing surrounding area damage) 

 

I typically never use a galvanized or plated washer or nut, or at least grind the plating off the washer & nut before welding  as that gives a much cleaner weld. 

 

I probably remove a couple of hundred flush or below flush broken off bolts a year both at my home shop & where I am employed. Really not my job at work but I have been doing it for so many years now that I have sort of become the go-to guy for difficult bolt removal. 

 

I have been doing a lot fewer at work the last few years since we mandated getting rid of those darn Easy-Out's. If the bolt hasn't been expanded using an Easy-Out, or the Easy-Out broken off in the fastener then typically the fastener will drill right out using  L/H drill bit.   

[DR Major]

The Oracle , Wish you were near Charleston, SC...

I will have to do some searching to find a good welder in this area.

 

[Tech1]

On 3/6/2023 at 7:50 AM, beemer chuck said:

I would find someone that TIG welds and have them center a 6mm hex nut over the broken screw. With a slim electrode they can reach in and weld the inside of the nut to the screw and easy out. If removed while still warm it should back out easily. Our fab shop at work did this regularly of 18-8 stainless steel bolts as small as 4 mm

I have done this on many marine products, usually works well.  The temperature change helps the threads loosen up.

[dirtrider]

On 3/8/2023 at 10:49 AM, Tech1 said:

I have done this on many marine products, usually works well.  The temperature change helps the threads loosen up.

Afternoon Tech1

 

Then you are one heck of a lot better welder than I am,    welding a 6mm nut with 5mm inside thread diameter (just slightly over 3/16") on a not easy to access vertical surface, with the broken 6mm bolt recessed, & surrounded by easily melted painted aluminum alloy. 

 

Just WOW! if you could actually do this without damaging the surrounding paint or alloy.

 

 

 

  

[Tech1]

Not saying it wouldn't mess with paint and 6mm is small, but it can be done if it isn't broke off much below the surface and if you can get at it with good vision.  I may have underestimated how difficult the access would be.

I was a welder in a specialty shop for 3 years doing specializing in aluminum and stainless, then a welding supervisor at an "over the road" tank manufacturer for 7 of 8 years there.  The last 35 years I finally put some use to my engine tech degree, working as an engineering tech at Mercury Racing, but primarily working on development of gearcases, transmissions, and accessories.  I did almost all welding on our divisions prototype products.

I retired this past year, hopefully more time to ride! 

[DR Major]

IT MIGHT BE TOO RECESSED?

"I NEED TO CLEAN THIS"

[DR Major]

Any thoughts on a work-around?

1-make a 2nd "hole" from Marine Tex epoxy next to original.

2-?

[dirtrider]

16 minutes ago, DR Major said:

Any thoughts on a work-around?

1-make a 2nd "hole" from Marine Tex epoxy next to original.

2-?

Morning David

 

There are enough other bolts holding that cover on that it won't go anywhere & it is only a belt/pulley protection cover. 

 

So if you don't want to make the thread repair (won't be easy with the easy-out broken off in it).

 

Then personally I would thoroughly clean the plastic cover  at the the missing bolt area (especially between the plastic cover & the front alloy engine cover. Then thoroughly clean the front alloy engine cover in that broken bolt area, then clean & scuff the broken bolt area. (really clean as you can get it)

 

Then just put a nice dab of silicone adhesive sealer on the front alloy cover area that broke bolt is in. Then just bolt the plastic cover back on. You want the adhesive sealer to  protrude through the plastic cover bolt hole so it stays put. 

 

That should hold that area of the plastic cover to the engine case cover & prevent rattling. 

 

Next belt change that adhesive sealant can be carefully pulled loose or just slide a thin knife blade between the plastic cover & the engine front cover & cut the sealant bond (cover should then come right off)  

 

 

[DR Major]

That is a great idea...!!!  THANK YOU...

 

I like the K.I.S.S. principle..

 

Have a nice weekend!!!

[bruce2000ltc]

Just to share another idea--

When the bolt is not broken off too low below the surface, especially if it involves a broken easyout, I use a thin cutoff disk on my dremel tool to cut a slot in the bolt.  I first wear down the diameter of the cutoff disk to keep from cutting into the surrounding case too much but large enough to make a deep enough slot for a flat blade screwdriver.  I then use a small, square shaft, flat blade screwdriver that I can use a crescent wrench to help turn the bolt out.  This has worked for me quite a few times and usually doesn't cause much noticeable damage to the case.

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, bruce2000ltc said:

Just to share another idea--

When the bolt is not broken off too low below the surface, especially if it involves a broken easyout, I use a thin cutoff disk on my dremel tool to cut a slot in the bolt.  I first wear down the diameter of the cutoff disk to keep from cutting into the surrounding case too much but large enough to make a deep enough slot for a flat blade screwdriver.  I then use a small, square shaft, flat blade screwdriver that I can use a crescent wrench to help turn the bolt out.  This has worked for me quite a few times and usually doesn't cause much noticeable damage to the case.

Afternoon bruce2000ltc

 

That could work if the bolt isn't seized in too tight but in the case here that bolt is corroded in pretty tight, tight enough that it twisted off when using the original bolt head to remove it. Then an easy out type device was used to try & remove the broken piece so that expanded it even tighter & prevented drilling it out. 

 

This one is going to take heat (probably significant heat)  & probably more purchase than a small screwdriver tip can provide. 

 

That is the beauty with welding as it not only adds a fastener to get a real wrench on but also heats the heck out of the fastener.

 

As a rule, when I run into a seized bolt on an alloy engine or transmission part I use an experienced feel to pre-know how much torque I can use to remove it without twisting it off. If I get near that limit or even think it can twist off then I just quit trying & simply drill the bolt head off. 

 

That gets the retained part off & out of the way but more importantly that leaves me with a good part of the bolt still sticking out & that makes removal so much easier without damaging the alloy around the bolt area.   

[bruce2000ltc]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon bruce2000ltc

 

That could work if the bolt isn't seized in too tight but in the case here that bolt is corroded in pretty tight, tight enough that it twisted off when using the original bolt head to remove it. Then an easy out type device was used to try & remove the broken piece so that expanded it even tighter & prevented drilling it out. 

 

This one is going to take heat (probably significant heat)  & probably more purchase than a small screwdriver tip can provide. 

 

That is the beauty with welding as it not only adds a fastener to get a real wrench on but also heats the heck out of the fastener.

 

As a rule, when I run into a seized bolt on an alloy engine or transmission part I use an experienced feel to pre-know how much torque I can use to remove it without twisting it off. If I get near that limit or even think it can twist off then I just quit trying & simply drill the bolt head off. 

 

That gets the retained part off & out of the way but more importantly that leaves me with a good part of the bolt still sticking out & that makes removal so much easier without damaging the alloy around the bolt area.   

Hi dirtrider,

I wasn't saying my method was superior...it's just that I don't have a TIG welder but I do have a dremel.

 

Your point about the easyout expanding the threads and making the bolt even tighter is dead on.  If using an easyout, drilling a smaller hole and using the smallest size easyout will reduce the chance of expanding the threads.  I've had better luck drilling the bolt with a left handed drill bit and if that didn't back it out driving the square tapered end of a file into the bolt and turning it out.

[dirtrider]

39 minutes ago, bruce2000ltc said:

Hi dirtrider,

I wasn't saying my method was superior...it's just that I don't have a TIG welder but I do have a dremel.

 

Your point about the easyout expanding the threads and making the bolt even tighter is dead on.  If using an easyout, drilling a smaller hole and using the smallest size easyout will reduce the chance of expanding the threads.  I've had better luck drilling the bolt with a left handed drill bit and if that didn't back it out driving the square tapered end of a file into the bolt and turning it out.

Evening  bruce2000ltc

 

I guess I just don't like easy-outs as they should be more properly called easily-broken-off's. 

 

An easy-out is just fine for a bolt that is basically loose in a threaded hole to begin with (bolt head snapped off in operation but the bolt shank is still loose in the treads) but the easy-out requires that a hole be drilled in the broken off bolt. 

 

So if a hole needs to be drilled for the easy-out then might as well just use a left handed drill bit as that will usually do anything (or even more) than an easy-out would do with way  less chance of it breaking off in the bolt. 

 

What I haven't ever been able to understand is; if a bolt head twisted off while trying to remove a stuck or corroded bolt then what in the world makes that person think a small BRITTLE easily-broken-off easy-out has  any chance to remove it without also breaking off ??? 

[Tech1]

If you can get it to work without getting a welder involved, that would be great.

May not be needed for this job, but thought I should mention some suggestions if anyone tries welding a nut over a broken screw or stud:  take your time, get the area clean, create a good ground, and don't use a plated steel nut!  Since unplated steel nuts are not real common,  many are galvanized/zinc or cad plated, I try to find a thin (not as deep to fill) stainless steel nut and stainless filler wire is usually strong enough.  I have, on occasion, carefully added a small dab of weld on the center of the broken screw to build it up some and center the nut.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, Tech1 said:

If you can get it to work without getting a welder involved, that would be great.

May not be needed for this job, but thought I should mention some suggestions if anyone tries welding a nut over a broken screw or stud:  take your time, get the area clean, create a good ground, and don't use a plated steel nut!  Since unplated steel nuts are not real common,  many are galvanized/zinc or cad plated, I try to find a thin (not as deep to fill) stainless steel nut and stainless filler wire is usually strong enough.  I have, on occasion, carefully added a small dab of weld on the center of the broken screw to build it up some and center the nut.

Morning  Tech1

 

I have, on occasion, carefully added a small dab of weld on the center of the broken screw to build it up some and center the nut.-- That is typically how I do it with a recessed small diameter broken bolt on a vertical surface, only I use a washer first as it so much easier to weld through a thin washer than down inside a small diameter nut. I center a small-hole washer over the broken bolt & hold it there with welders heat blocking putty. Then using a very fine TIG electrode I start building the weld up on the recessed broken bolt itself using a piece of .030" MIG wire as an easy to melt filler rod.  This also gives me the advantage of not having to be directly in front of a nut to see inside it as with a washer I can still see to weld at a slight off-angle (like with a wheel or exhaust pipe in the way) 

 

 

[DR Major]

Probably go with the no screw option...Clean really good and put a dab of RTV on.

I appreciate all the input...helps to think thru it.

[dirtrider]

18 minutes ago, DR Major said:

Probably go with the no screw option...Clean really good and put a dab of RTV on.

I appreciate all the input...helps to think thru it.

Afternoon David

 

Don't just use standard RTV, it will hold better for longer if you use a silicone adhesive-sealant. 

[DR Major]

Thank you... good info.