R1100rt Fuel/Electrical Issue?

[Tsūkin-sha]

Hello from the PNW!  Short time lurker, first time poster.  Hoping the sages of the group have seen this one before.  

 

Details:  1999 R1100rt, ~56k miles, very good condition

 

Symptom:  Engine coughed and died after sitting for 2 weeks and will not re-start.  I found if I disconnect the battery and let it sit for a while, it will start, with the “choke” wide open.  The second you twist the throttle and the choke pops off, she dies again, and won’t chooch unless you go through the battery disassembly/wait program.  When it does run, it smells like it’s burning rich.  I didn’t run it for any length of time.

 

Background:  I have only owned it since August of this year, purchasing it from an older gentlemen who had stopped riding 2-3 years ago due to poor health.  I put in a new battery in her, fuel additive with injector cleaner, premium gas, and only ~2600 miles later, she lets me down.  Prior, she ran great on my 30 mile commute to work, each way, in rain and sunshine.  The charger was plugged in during a 2 week absence over the holidays.  

 

I am an older guy who has had lots of dirt bikes and quads (nearly all 2-smokes); nothing with this much electronics.  Outside of the standard, “did you try unplugging it and rebooting”, I don’t have any experience with modern machines.  BTW, I had just mounted and balanced my first street bike tire (front) and was heading up the road to test it when this happened.  So much for patting myself on the back for the tire!  😄

 

Much appreciated,

 

Russ

Kitsap County, WA

[dirtrider]

7 hours ago, Tsūkin-sha said:

Hello from the PNW!  Short time lurker, first time poster.  Hoping the sages of the group have seen this one before.  

 

Details:  1999 R1100rt, ~56k miles, very good condition

 

Symptom:  Engine coughed and died after sitting for 2 weeks and will not re-start.  I found if I disconnect the battery and let it sit for a while, it will start, with the “choke” wide open.  The second you twist the throttle and the choke pops off, she dies again, and won’t chooch unless you go through the battery disassembly/wait program.  When it does run, it smells like it’s burning rich.  I didn’t run it for any length of time.

 

Background:  I have only owned it since August of this year, purchasing it from an older gentlemen who had stopped riding 2-3 years ago due to poor health.  I put in a new battery in her, fuel additive with injector cleaner, premium gas, and only ~2600 miles later, she lets me down.  Prior, she ran great on my 30 mile commute to work, each way, in rain and sunshine.  The charger was plugged in during a 2 week absence over the holidays.  

 

I am an older guy who has had lots of dirt bikes and quads (nearly all 2-smokes); nothing with this much electronics.  Outside of the standard, “did you try unplugging it and rebooting”, I don’t have any experience with modern machines.  BTW, I had just mounted and balanced my first street bike tire (front) and was heading up the road to test it when this happened.  So much for patting myself on the back for the tire!  😄

 

Much appreciated,

 

Russ

Kitsap County, WA

 

Morning Russ

 

This is going to be a somewhat difficult thing to diagnose over the internet without a little more info from you & probably some testing.

 

Did you do ANYTHING ELSE to that motorcycle while, or when, you were changing the tire (anything at all)? Or did you do ANYTHING to it just before the problem started. Anything, even if small or you consider insignificant?  

 

If nothing done to that motorcycle other than JUST change a tire then you probably need to start your search by removing the CCP from the fuse box. This will disable the o2 sensor. If it then runs better, or stays running, then we can address the o2 sensor issue. If your CCP has already been removed by the previous owner then we will need to look elsewhere.

 

If the CCP removal doesn't make a difference then you will probably need to do a fuel return hose flow test. That involves disconnecting the fuel return hose, plugging the front hose off then cranking the engine or running the fuel pump to se if you have a pencil sized fuel flow coming out of the rear fuel return hose. (we will go into this in more detail once you try the CCP removal test mentioned above)

 

When was the last time you put gasoline in the tank? If just before the problem started then you might have water in your fuel or contaminated fuel.

 

Another thing to consider, possibly all those fuel additives that you added have dislodged crud from inside your fuel tank & plugged your fuel filter. 

 

If you recently washed that motorcycle, or have ridden it in the rain, then it's also a possibility that your ignition  HES  (Hall Effect Sensor) is causing issues (kind of common on older BMW 1100 motorcycles if it still has the original HES).  

 

You are probably going to have to work through the possibilities one at a time until you find the problem. 

 

You probably don't need to keep disconnecting the battery to get it to start, simply removing fuse #5 from the fuse box usually accomplishes the same thing.    

 

[Jim Moore]

Man, that's a great-looking bike. I love that color. A few quick things to check. Pull the CCP and see if it runs. Check the lower throttle cables. See if they're seated correctly in the adjusters. Check to see if the connector to the TPS on the left side is securely fitted. If none of those work, it sounds fuel related to me. I'd be replacing the fuel filter and the u-shaped fuel line in the tank. As long as you have the tank off you might as well replace the HES. It needs to be done on a bike that age anyway. Heck, you might as well replace the brake lines with some Galfers or Spieglers. That also needs to be done. Plenty of info on the 'net about all those.

[Lowndes]

BEAUTIFUL BIKE!!  I have a '99RT, too.

 

Dirtrider will get you going again.  IF the problem is diagnosed as the HES (or if the HES is the original HES), I have the info on a guy near Vancouver that rewires your HES and can give you the details.  He has rewired two for me.

 

The HES itself is bullet proof but the insulation on the wires between it and the ECU get very brittle with age and heat and falls off shorting the wires inside the sheath.  Very well known issue as mentioned by Dirtrider and jim Moore above.

 

And follow Dirtriders instructions "to the letter".

 

 

[Tsūkin-sha]

It looks like I came to the right place for help!  My work schedule makes it difficult to work on this during the week, so I look forward to diving in over the weekend.  Thank you, all! 

[dirtrider]

48 minutes ago, Tsūkin-sha said:

It looks like I came to the right place for help!  My work schedule makes it difficult to work on this during the week, so I look forward to diving in over the weekend.  Thank you, all! 

Morning Russ

 

You might try to answer this question as we might have more to offer you depending on how it is answered.

 

"Did you do ANYTHING ELSE to that motorcycle while, or when, you were changing the tire (anything at all)? Or did you do ANYTHING to it just before the problem started. Anything, even if small or that you consider insignificant"?  

[Tsūkin-sha]

On 1/18/2023 at 6:07 AM, dirtrider said:

Morning Russ

 

You might try to answer this question as we might have more to offer you depending on how it is answered.

 

"Did you do ANYTHING ELSE to that motorcycle while, or when, you were changing the tire (anything at all)? Or did you do ANYTHING to it just before the problem started. Anything, even if small or that you consider insignificant"?  

 

The only thing that might be related would be fueling at a different station.  The fuel quality could potentially be lower or maybe some water in the tanks, as you mentioned.  Not sure, but after spending today in the shop tinkering, I am closer than when I started down this rabbit hole.  First, it lives!  Well, she runs, but after 5 minutes or so, she coughs and dies.  If I immediately re-start, she will run again.  However, if I pause for a moment, I can hear the fuel injectors chattering and therefore flooding her out.  I pulled the tank loose/back exposing the HES connection and tried testing the voltage while it was running.  It seemed relatively stable, until the engine would quit, and there seemed to be some irregular, fluctuations (maybe from poor contacts).  Anyhow, with the engine off and ohm’ing out the sensor, ground, and hot HES wires, while moving around the HES side wire lead, I would get very erratic numbers.  Is it safe to assume that it’s likely the wires and/or the HES that is compromised?  Note:  To make sure it wasn’t in the plug, I made a tool to clean out the female plug ports with electrical cleaner, used the compressor to blow it out, and applied electrical grease before re-installing.  

 

Is it safe to assume this would also be a good time to replace the fuel filter to ensure that component is good for many more thousand miles?  If so, is it inside the tank?  Should I be replacing the fuel pump as well?

 

Great tip on the #5 fuse removal.  I was adding a lot of mileage to the battery box!  😄

 

Thanks again for everyone’s help!

[Uncle Mike]

When I purchased my1999 R1100RT on 10/31/00 and removed the fuel pump it still had the original fuel filter with the build date on it. Also some of the fuel lines inside the tank where starting to crack and separate. Luckily Werner who owns a 96 R1100RT here helped me with the fuel pump removal and updating the lines, filter and mesh screen. 

[dirtrider]

11 hours ago, Tsūkin-sha said:

 

The only thing that might be related would be fueling at a different station.  The fuel quality could potentially be lower or maybe some water in the tanks, as you mentioned.  Not sure, but after spending today in the shop tinkering, I am closer than when I started down this rabbit hole.  First, it lives!  Well, she runs, but after 5 minutes or so, she coughs and dies.  If I immediately re-start, she will run again.  However, if I pause for a moment, I can hear the fuel injectors chattering and therefore flooding her out.  I pulled the tank loose/back exposing the HES connection and tried testing the voltage while it was running.  It seemed relatively stable, until the engine would quit, and there seemed to be some irregular, fluctuations (maybe from poor contacts).  Anyhow, with the engine off and ohm’ing out the sensor, ground, and hot HES wires, while moving around the HES side wire lead, I would get very erratic numbers.  Is it safe to assume that it’s likely the wires and/or the HES that is compromised?  Note:  To make sure it wasn’t in the plug, I made a tool to clean out the female plug ports with electrical cleaner, used the compressor to blow it out, and applied electrical grease before re-installing.  

 

Is it safe to assume this would also be a good time to replace the fuel filter to ensure that component is good for many more thousand miles?  If so, is it inside the tank?  Should I be replacing the fuel pump as well?

 

Great tip on the #5 fuse removal.  I was adding a lot of mileage to the battery box!  😄

 

Thanks again for everyone’s help!

Morning Tsūkin-sha

 

Those chattering fuel injectors are a good sign that the HES (HES wiring) is causing your issue. Any chance that you noticed the tachometer when the problem was happening? A wildly fluctuating tachometer is usually a sure sign that the HES signal is corrupt.

 

It is usually difficult to find an HES wire (cross-talk) issue with an ohmmeter as the wires are typically not solidly shorted but have just enough continuity due to moisture to effect one of the HES signals.

 

You should probably  just eliminate the HES as the problem by sending it out to be PROPERLY re-wired with the proper high temperature wires. Or you can do it yourself if electrically handy.   

 

The sensors themselves seldom if ever fail, it's the degraded wiring insulation that usually fails. 

 

If you want to prove it out just completely remove the outer wire covering then separate & isolate each wire from the others. Just spread them out so they are not close to each other. 

 

While you have the fuel tank removed you might as well prevent future problems by replacing the high pressure U shaped fuel hose & other in-tank fuel hoses as those are known to fail with time & heat cycles. 

Just keep in mind that those hoses are somewhat special  as they need to be fuel & alcohol  resistant as well as FUEL SUBMERSIBLE rated (expensive). That U shaped high pressure hose is REALLY important as that is the cause of a lot of walk-home's on the BMW 1100/1150 motorcycles.  

 

Replacing the fuel filter is also a good idea while in there.

 

There are also 2 smaller diameter hoses that run through the inside of the  tank, one is for the tank vent & the other is for the drain at the fuel filler ring. Those also need to be fuel-submersible but they are a smaller diameter & very difficult to source outside of BMW. Bulk hose  is just about as expensive as the same hose from a BMW dealer.

 

Those vent & fill ring hoses typically won't cause an engine quit but if they leak or fail or leak they can allow a half tank of fuel to flow out into your garage overnight  (not a good thing!)

 

On older BMW 1100 motorcycles a new or re-wired HES as well a in-tank fuel hose replacement is to be expected & REALLY should be done,  if they are not causing issues now they almost surely will at some point in your future ownership, usually far from home, at night, on the freeway, & in the rain.

[Tsūkin-sha]

You’re spot on, DR.  The tach did exhibit erratic movement when died, but the ignition was still on.  I am going to use your post as a shopping list and start down the road toward refreshing the ‘old girl, she deserves it.  
 

Thanks to all for the great posts.  I will post the results when finished!

[Uncle Brad]

Just a FYI, i had my HES rewired just about a month ago.  There is a gent in British Columbia that does a great job rewiring them for a reasonable price.   If you're interested, i can give you his contact info. He goes by GSAddict on other forums.   Cheers from snowy Eastern Canada.

[Brodiepunker18]

On 1/24/2023 at 7:50 AM, Uncle Brad said:

Just a FYI, i had my HES rewired just about a month ago.  There is a gent in British Columbia that does a great job rewiring them for a reasonable price.   If you're interested, i can give you his contact info. He goes by GSAddict on other forums.   Cheers from snowy Eastern Canada.

He rewired my HES last spring for my 99 R1100RT as well. Great guy to work with and will worth it!

[Tsūkin-sha]

Hello all,

 

After a few long weeks of work, the ‘ol girl is apart.  The conclusion on the HES was 100% correct.  Once I cut back the outer insulation, the inner wire insulation started disintegrating.  I will either send it off for re-wire or buy a new one; not sure which, yet.  So, it’s time to stimulate the economy with parts procurement.  The hoses in the tank sound like a challenge, but I will get the best ones, as I don’t intend on being in there for a while!

 

Thank you!

 

Russ

[Brodiepunker18]

You’re probably better off to send it for rewire. I went through GSAddict in Canada. Even new ones have the thinner wire and are prone to issue.

[Tsūkin-sha]

That’s the decision I made and mailed mine to BC for re-wire Monday.  👍

 

-Russ

[Tsūkin-sha]

Thanks to everyone for the support on my issues.  I had the HES rewired by our friend in Canada and also installed a new fuel filter, pump, and hoses.  Everything is back together and she runs great.  I will go back to lurking and learning through osmosis!