Can Bus?

[JamesW]

I've been, out of just curiosity, looking into CAN Bus issues and I pretty much want nothing whatsoever to do with any motorcycle that uses this technology as in EVER in what is left of this lifetime.  I was amazed and maybe somewhat disappointed to find out that even Harley has been into this technology since 2011.  

 

I mean just to reduce the physical wiring on a motorcycle because of physical space issues caused mainly by the perceived need to accommodate every conceivable whistle and or bell on a bike just absolutely makes no sense to me.  I have a neighbor that just can't imagine how or why I feel this way other than maybe I'm just a technical dinosaur that can't or won't get with the program and enter the 21st century.

 

I got to give Yamaha credit for not going the CAN bust route with the FJR.  I don't know about their other bikes but I give them credit BMW is another story and I shall walk before I ever in this lifetime succumb to the urge to EVER purchase a new BMW and now even HD is off the table for me.  Might mention I've never ridden let alone owned an HD and now it looks like I never will.

 

There I feel better after posting my thoughts on today's technology.  Well, that and a couple bucks and I can get a cup of coffee.

[lkraus]

Clearly, you have issues, but what CANBUS issues are you objecting to?

 

I've never had any CANBUS-related problems.  All of my RT's original equipment works just fine. So do all the electrical farkles I've added, with no need to touch the CANBUS.

 

I assume you either walk or rely on a city bus for transportation, because any modern car or truck uses networking methods similar to CANBUS.

 

I hope this does not make your head explode, but did you know the BMW Wetheads use CANBUS AND LINBUS?

 

 

[RadioFlyer]

CAN-bus must be the most misused term in BMW-related motorcycle forums.

 

There are far too many posts dealing with electrical issues that refer to the CAN-bus when they should be referring to the ZFE.

 

The CAN-bus does data comms amongst the various controllers. It does not do the management of chassis electrics. That's what the ZFE does.

 

Vendors must take a large part of the blame for all the misunderstanding as they are prone to tossing around "CAN-bus" inappropriately.

[dirtrider]

On 1/3/2023 at 10:35 AM, JamesW said:

I've been, out of just curiosity, looking into CAN Bus issues and I pretty much want nothing whatsoever to do with any motorcycle that uses this technology as in EVER in what is left of this lifetime.  I was amazed and maybe somewhat disappointed to find out that even Harley has been into this technology since 2011.  

 

I mean just to reduce the physical wiring on a motorcycle because of physical space issues caused mainly by the perceived need to accommodate every conceivable whistle and or bell on a bike just absolutely makes no sense to me.  I have a neighbor that just can't imagine how or why I feel this way other than maybe I'm just a technical dinosaur that can't or won't get with the program and enter the 21st century.

 

I got to give Yamaha credit for not going the CAN bust route with the FJR.  I don't know about their other bikes but I give them credit BMW is another story and I shall walk before I ever in this lifetime succumb to the urge to EVER purchase a new BMW and now even HD is off the table for me.  Might mention I've never ridden let alone owned an HD and now it looks like I never will.

 

There I feel better after posting my thoughts on today's technology.  Well, that and a couple bucks and I can get a cup of coffee.

Afternoon James

 

CanBus itself hasn't been a problem with few if any actual failures of the CanBus itself as CanBus is just a communication protocol between on-board modules & computers. I have seen less CanBus related failures than multi-wire failures on older motorcycles. 

 

Without the CanBus (CAN system) & the newer simpler LinBus (Local Interconnect Network) system the wire harnesses would be massive, the switches much larger & heavier duty, with separate relays all over the motorcycle.

 

The biggest problem with CanBus (or LinBus) is that riders or owners are scared of it because they don't understand it.   Plus CanBus gets blamed for about anything that riders or people don't understand even to the point of things not actually on the CAN getting blamed as a CAN issue.

 

You have to keep in mind that most CanBus reported failures have nothing to do with the actual CanBus but have more to do with failed components that report to, or are controlled by, or controlled over the Controller Area Network.    

[JamesW]

49 minutes ago, lkraus said:

Clearly, you have issues, but what CANBUS issues are you objecting to?

 

I've never had any CANBUS-related problems.  All of my RT's original equipment works just fine. So do all the electrical farkles I've added, with no need to touch the CANBUS.

 

I assume you either walk or rely on a city bus for transportation, because any modern car or truck uses networking methods similar to CANBUS.

 

I hope this does not make your head explode, but did you know the BMW Wetheads use CANBUS AND LINBUS?

 

Yup, I'm aware wet heads use CANbus and that's one reason I will never own one.

 

Hi D.R.,

What happens when a CANbus circuit gets wet as in a connector that developed a bit of resistance on a CANbus related circuit?  Does this not cause a problem with the CANbus system which then results in a shut down of that circuit and I would think sets a fault code in the ECU?  Could this not cause the motorcycle to be not capable of even being started?  And is it not true that because of the addition of whistles and bell devices on the bikes of today that systems like the CANbus are required to support these largely (imo of course) bells & whistles?  Seems to me this all adds up to just unnecessary complexity just to sell new motorcycles by convincing the somewhat gullible motorcycling public they just gotta have the latest and greatest.

 

49 minutes ago, lkraus said:

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, JamesW said:

 

Yup, I'm aware wet heads use CANbus and that's one reason I will never own one.

 

Hi D.R.,

What happens when a CANbus circuit gets wet as in a connector that developed a bit of resistance on a CANbus related circuit?  Does this not cause a problem with the CANbus system which then results in a shut down of that circuit and I would think sets a fault code in the ECU?  Could this not cause the motorcycle to be not capable of even being started?  And is it not true that because of the addition of whistles and bell devices on the bikes of today that systems like the CANbus are required to support these largely (imo of course) bells & whistles?  Seems to me this all adds up to just unnecessary complexity just to sell new motorcycles by convincing the somewhat gullible motorcycling public they just gotta have the latest and greatest.

 

 

Afternoon James

 

I really haven't seen many CAN connection or resistance issues as the connectors & terminals are pretty well sealed. 

 

Less things than most think actually go out over the CAN system as most starting & engine controls are not on the CAN, they do report things like vehicle speed & dash function inputs over the CAN. The newer bikes use a LinBus system for some of the more simple functions like on/off or one way controls without position feedback.

 

As mentioned in post above the CanBus itself really isn't an issue by itself,  it's the complexity of all the added accessories, convivence items like heated seats, cruise control, ABS braking, electronic speedometer, required anti-theft systems, etc that drive the system complexity. That complexity would still be there even if everything was hard wired direct, but that would include a more difficult diagnostic task as the more analog the control functions the less likely it could tell a tec what is wrong.  

 

In todays market a company just isn't going to sell up-level motorcycles in the USA or Europe  without all the convenience items or safety items & especially if the motorcycle won't meet multi-country emission standards. 

 

 

[JamesW]

24 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon James

 

I really haven't seen many CAN connection or resistance issues as the connectors & terminals are pretty well sealed. 

 

Less things than most think actually go out over the CAN system as most starting & engine controls are not on the CAN, they do report things like vehicle speed & dash function inputs over the CAN. The newer bikes use a LinBus system for some of the more simple functions like on/off or one way controls without position feedback.

 

As mentioned in post above the CanBus itself really isn't an issue by itself,  it's the complexity of all the added accessories, convivence items like heated seats, cruise control, ABS braking, electronic speedometer, required anti-theft systems, etc that drive the system complexity. That complexity would still be there even if everything was hard wired direct, but that would include a more difficult diagnostic task as the more analog the control functions the less likely it could tell a tec what is wrong.  

 

In todays market a company just isn't going to sell up-level motorcycles in the USA or Europe  without all the convenience items or safety items & especially if the motorcycle won't meet multi-country emission standards. 

This to me is a sad commentary on today's gizmo crazy society.  About all I can say.

24 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 

 

 

[9Mary7]

[MikeB60]

Never mind...

Edited January 4, 2023 by MikeB60
Second thought

[Skywagon]

James...I see you are retired telecom.  Remember D4 channel banks, replaced by things like IDNX multiplexors, replaced by things called routers....and protocols like x.25 replaced by tcpip....  Dial up 212 models of 9.6 speed to fiber of more than a gig to your home. Thats what Canbus is to motorcycles...the next generation.  Heck someday there may be no wiring at all on a motorcycle.

 

When I had my old airhead, I spent months and many splices and bulbs chasing an errant turn signal issue.  Turns out relays due actually go bad when a hot wire grounds out.

 

Not trying to change your mind or views, but the days of heavy features on bikes and cars are here to stay.  Heavy wiring looms...not so much.

 

Heck...I still have an AOL account so I have an appreciation for your view. I was part of their initial customer trial in the mid-80's.  They aren't nearly as good at spying on me as my google account is. Maybe google on canbus and AOL is on twisted pair.  I have a 12 transistor pocket radio that was a Christmas present ~ 1963 I listen to a fishing show every Friday morning as it is the only AM radio in the house.

[Hosstage]

James, I think you're ready for a Harley, you sound like every old HD rider when each new generation of Harley comes out! And I see a lot of those old dudes riding new Harleys. Every generation seems to be better than the last. I've had a few different gens, and looking forward to getting a current gen, a hell of a motor compared to previous.

Old bikes are nice, but eventually they are old and hard to get parts to keep them running. Even Harleys.

Don't be afraid of the new tech. Points and condenser are long gone.....

[Skywagon]

9 minutes ago, Hosstage said:

Points and condenser are long gone

Yeah but I still have my dwell meter to set them in case they make a comeback.  

[Cap]

9 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Yeah but I still have my dwell meter to set them in case they make a comeback.  

Dwell meter?  How fancy.  I use a matchbook cover.

 

[EdM]

11 hours ago, Skywagon said:

Yeah but I still have my dwell meter to set them in case they make a comeback.  

 

I doubt many today even know what a dwell meter is or is used for. I still have an old Snap-on one sitting in a cabinet - hasn't seen use in decades.

[dirtrider]

Old dwell meters go well with generator armature growlers & magneto magnet re-magnetizers. (I still have both of those)

 

I have a number of old Dwell/tac meters (all but one don't even have a 1 cylinder, 4 cylinder,  or 2-cycle setting). 

 

I have an old Delco dwell meter that is only a dwell meter (no tac option), I do have a newer Snap-on (still probably 1970's era) that does have a single cylinder & 2 cycle setting (mostly for the tac accuracy so you don't have to do the math)

[Skywagon]

My dwell meter is in the drawer right next to my R12 manifold gauges/hoses/cantap. 

[Hosstage]

Give James a call, he might want to take those off your hands..........

[JamesW]

1 hour ago, Hosstage said:

Give James a call, he might want to take those off your hands..........

Nope, don't own any rolling stock that I could use a dwell meter on.  Kind of like my timing light.  But at least I have a FSM on both my bikes and can even do on board diagnostics without any accessory equipment on the '10 FJR.  Not that I've ever really needed to.  Was handy when I replaced the throttle position sensor, took all of about 20 minutes start to finish beginning with access to the TPS.  

 

Not to get too far afield but I wish I could figure out how to easily opt out of the iCloud sign up reminders on this MacBook Air.  Grrrrrrrr.....  Oh and nope, I don't own a smart phone and god willing I never shall.  My goofy neighbor's Tesla Model Y is, to me, just the ultimate when it comes to ridiculous nonsensical worthless gizmos. He actually gets off on this feature where the car's audio system plays a catchy tune and the lights start flashing and windows start going up and down in perfect time to the music.  This little demonstration just completely blew what's left of my mind, totally!

 

I just can't understand why one can't buy a motorcycle without all these worthless to me gizmos.  For example traction control...in my humble opinion anyone that thinks they just got to have this feature should maybe give serious thought to giving up on motorcycles all together.  I'm serious!  Oh, and look at what this nonsense technology has done to purchase prices.  Nuts! 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

My dwell meter is in the drawer right next to my R12 manifold gauges/hoses/cantap. 

Afternoon David

 

Those gauges you have would go good with my stock of R-12 (I still have one full 15# can of R-12 & one 3/4 full 15# can of R-12). 

 

There is nothing wrong with that R-12 gauge set as it will still work good with R134a and a couple of adapters. But I usually flush the gauge set first with R-11 if I ever pull in R-12 compatible refrigerant-oil through the gauge set.  

[Hosstage]

29 minutes ago, JamesW said:

Nope, don't own any rolling stock that I could use a dwell meter on.  Kind of like my timing light.  But at least I have a FSM on both my bikes and can even do on board diagnostics without any accessory equipment on the '10 FJR.  Not that I've ever really needed to.  Was handy when I replaced the throttle position sensor, took all of about 20 minutes start to finish beginning with access to the TPS.  

 

Not to get too far afield but I wish I could figure out how to easily opt out of the iCloud sign up reminders on this MacBook Air.  Grrrrrrrr.....  Oh and nope, I don't own a smart phone and god willing I never shall.  My goofy neighbor's Tesla Model Y is, to me, just the ultimate when it comes to ridiculous nonsensical worthless gizmos. He actually gets off on this feature where the car's audio system plays a catchy tune and the lights start flashing and windows start going up and down in perfect time to the music.  This little demonstration just completely blew what's left of my mind, totally!

 

I just can't understand why one can't buy a motorcycle without all these worthless to me gizmos.  For example traction control...in my humble opinion anyone that thinks they just got to have this feature should maybe give serious thought to giving up on motorcycles all together.  I'm serious!  Oh, and look at what this nonsense technology has done to purchase prices.  Nuts! 

So you're saying you don't need the forward collision warning systems coming out that will apply the brakes on your motorcycle for you?

What could go wrong?

[DakarTimm]

I've been following this thread for several days now.As an ownerof several Airheads and a '75 Honda 550/4 ,I get the point.

One aspect that hasn't presented itself is that many vehicles have also gone the CAN BUS route .

Mostof us don't how exactly something functions .Just aslong as it does it's job reliably .

I'm tired of buying the same album in 8  track , LP,cassette ,CD, MP3 and now ITunes .

Hell the clock is still blinking on my VCR ...

[RadioFlyer]

ZFE & CAN-bus Info

 

See the first two posts in this thread for a better understanding of these subjects.

[dirtrider]

On 1/3/2023 at 12:56 PM, JamesW said:

This to me is a sad commentary on today's gizmo crazy society.  About all I can say.

 

Afternoon James

 

True for some but not for a lot of us that have been around since (well about when dirt was discovered)

 

--in the days of-- 

 

  Non-synco transmissions,  6 volt electrical systems, carburetors,  drum brakes  (I even owned a non-hydraulic brake vehicle for a short time when I was young) that was actually kind of fun as you never knew what way it was going to dart when the brakes were applied, no power brakes, low output generators that don't charge at idle & not much better at low cruising speed, 6 volt headlights that were so dim you couldn't see 30 feet ahead in the real dark,  road draft tubes, oil containing intake air filter systems, manual chokes, Nylon or Rayon tires (or worse), low KV ignition systems that fouled spark plugs with frequency in cold weather, no right side OSRVM, vacuum operated windshield wipers that would typically quit when you throttled up to make a pass, vacuum operated power windows,  hydro-electric (hydraulic) power windows,  motor oil that would turn to tar in very cold weather, leather engine, rear axle, & transmission seals (yep that leaked pretty regularly),  no seatbelts, & windshields that were hard as steel so just about guaranteed you a concussion even in a low speed frontal impact, vehicle interiors so unfriendly that they could double as corn huskers, suspension components that wore out at regular low miles (especially idler arms & drag links), AM radios or none at all , no air conditioning (well unless an open side or vent window counted), speedometers that were about as accurate as licking your finger then sticking it out the side window to judge air flow speed, shock absorbers that maybe lasted 10,000 miles. 

 

But there were some upsides, like 14 cent gasoline, back seats big enough for a very nice Friday night date, you actually owned it not leased it, you could actually back the darn thing up without a rear camera or side mirror which is good because the side mirror usually moved when you slammed the door, you also got to know the vehicles pretty good as they usually needed a tune-up every 10,000 to 15,000 miles & needed brakes replaced about as often, bumper jacks (yep those puppies) ever try to use one of those on the rear of a vehicle  facing downhill on a steep grade? Or on a side slopping shoulder? That neat little gizmo of a scissors jack is much safer to use, easier to store,  & has other uses after the vehicle is dead & gone  ___

 

You get idea idea, a lot of today's gizmos are pretty nice & would be difficult to live without.  My grandfather used to hate new things on automobiles but what did he know as when I knew him he was driving a vehicle with a straight 8 cylinder engine (engine was longer than I was), a lot of chrome with rust oozing out from under most of it, but it did have a separate rear seat heater but that was needed as the rear seat was the size of the kitchen in my first house. 

 

A lot of the replacements/improvements/updates for the above would probably have been considered gizmos when they first appeared on up-level vehicles. 

 

I really don't want to go back to those days of gizmo free vehicles.  

[Skywagon]

DR...all that is funny but true.  I had all that stuff. My 1966 Impala had a trunk big enough to live in.  The A-Frame bushings wore out every 10,000 miles or so...replace them...no.....-pour brake fluid on them so they will stop squeaking.  Go to the auto supply about every 3000 miles...points, plugs, condenser, carb accelerator pump.  Don't go around a corner too fast with that lean or someone might fall out. Fuel pump outages...use string and grease to get that dang pushrod up so you can install new pump. Heater core would rust out about every 3 years. Powerglide 2 speed automatic with clutches that burned out often....ok that was my fault.  Not sure you are supposed to rev it up in neutral and drop it into low gear. Lock to lock steering would make your tired.  I don't even want to talk about my Corvair...

[Hank in WV]

And replacing exhaust systems every year...

[Hosstage]

Power windows? Nothing but trouble, and I wouldn't have a car without them!

[9Mary7]

7 hours ago, JamesW said:

buy a motorcycle without all these worthless to me gizmos

I did...... it's called a CB500X.......no abs, no traction control, no heated anything, no self cancelling signals, no frills and a hoot to flog......all while averaging 68mpg.

[Scott9999]

1 hour ago, 9Mary7 said:

I did...... it's called a CB500X.......no abs, no traction control, no heated anything, no self cancelling signals, no frills and a hoot to flog......all while averaging 68mpg.

Hmmm, proof positive that Alan is entering the "second childhood" phase of his life, going back to all the old and goldie thingys he either once had, or envied but could not have, when he was a poor, young buck.  

 

[konacyclist]

I'm not looking to dogpile on this but there is another side. I have never had a problem with the CAN BUS systems on my BMW motorcycles but I did have a MAJOR problem with a new 2013 Mustang GT 5.0 I owned. On the very first day of ownership, I had a situation while stopped at a traffic signal. Every status light on the dash lit up and the warning chimes sounded. It was like a pinball machine that went "tilt". When the light changed, I realized my power steering was disabled. I limped the car back to the dealer where it stayed for a couple of weeks while one of their best techs searched for the problem. Even the Ford factory techs were at a loss. Eventually the problem was found to be a corroded electrical connector to the electric power steering. That corroded connector on a new fresh production vehicle more or less disabled the car and yes it was a CAN BUS related issue.

[JamesW]

19 hours ago, konacyclist said:

I'm not looking to dogpile on this but there is another side. I have never had a problem with the CAN BUS systems on my BMW motorcycles but I did have a MAJOR problem with a new 2013 Mustang GT 5.0 I owned. On the very first day of ownership, I had a situation while stopped at a traffic signal. Every status light on the dash lit up and the warning chimes sounded. It was like a pinball machine that went "tilt". When the light changed, I realized my power steering was disabled. I limped the car back to the dealer where it stayed for a couple of weeks while one of their best techs searched for the problem. Even the Ford factory techs were at a loss. Eventually the problem was found to be a corroded electrical connector to the electric power steering. That corroded connector on a new fresh production vehicle more or less disabled the car and yes it was a CAN BUS related issue.

 

Exactly right!  As long as the Can bus system does its thing all good but when things go wrong it's fun and games time.  A '13 GT has CAN bus?  That's interesting.  I don't think my '11 Stang GT/CS has the technology, I hope.  Well....looks like my beloved Mustang does use CANbus technology.  Seems the '10-'14 Stangs had the same system. Edited:  God help me!  Going to pay the Ford dealer a visit today and find out what issues they have had, if any.  Now I know I'll never get rid of my two motorcycles.  They truly are works of art to be admired.  

 

Hi D.R., bet I got you beat age wise and I never had issues with old rolling stock other than I never did like crawling around underneath with my trusty grease gun at every oil change.  Oh, and I don't miss the high voltage electrical systems but I view non gizmo related advances improvements and not what I view are pointless nonsensical frue fraw stuff like smart cruise control and stay in your lane alerts and on and on and..........  If you think you need all this stuff maybe it's time you buy a good pair of walking shoes,  just sayin'.  Come to think of it I did just that.  lol..lol..

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, JamesW said:

 

Exactly right!  As long as the Can bus system does its thing all good but when things go wrong it's fun and games time.  A '13 GT has CAN bus?  That's interesting.  I don't think my '11 Stang GT/CS has the technology, I hope.  Well....looks like my beloved Mustang does use CANbus technology.  Seems the '10-'14 Stangs had the same system. Edited:  God help me!  Going to pay the Ford dealer a visit today and find out what issues they have had, if any.  Now I know I'll never get rid of my two motorcycles.  They truly are works of art to be admired.  

 

Hi D.R., bet I got you beat age wise and I never had issues with old rolling stock other than I never did like crawling around underneath with my trusty grease gun at every oil change.  Oh, and I don't miss the high voltage electrical systems but I view non gizmo related advances improvements and not what I view are pointless nonsensical frue fraw stuff like smart cruise control and stay in your lane alerts and on and on and..........  If you think you need all this stuff maybe it's time you buy a good pair of walking shoes,  just sayin'.  Come to think of it I did just that.  lol..lol..

Afternoon James

 

Some good points but you need to keep in mind that like most households I am not the only one in my family that drives the vehicle(s) we own. My wife just loves lane assist (personally I just turn it off when I get behind the wheel as like you I don't like it), she also likes the adaptive cruise control (I really don't care one way or another as I have bad habit of assisting the cruise control with my foot as it never seems to keep me in the place I want to be for a  quick lane change if needed, she also likes the heated seats,  the heated steering wheel, the automatic door locks, especially the programable part as she only likes the drivers door to unlock but with my key-fob I have it unlock all the doors , she also likes the power windows (can't even get most vehicles any longer without power windows or power door locks), the remote start (I never use it by my wife does) she likes the on-board wifi, the Google mapping, & especially the back-up camara (I never use it as I  am so used to using my mirrors that I don't even think to look at it), but I do use it as un-intended as & I have a  cheat on the back-up camera circuit so I can use it as a rearview mirror if backseat passengers, or a large packages in the rear cargo area block my direct rearward view. I used to hate the automatic engine shut-down at red lights & other stops so would dis-able it but the older I get the more I stop disabling it as I don't hear like I used to so the super quiet interior at engine shutdown enhances my communication with passengers.   

 

The other thing is that I typically get a new family vehicle every year (or 2 years at the most) so I usually buy with re-sale in mind by getting the popular options that allow a fair market-value and easy resale. A stripped down vehicle will sell but most looking for a stripped down vehicle are  also looking for a vehicle priced well below that model's market value.

 

I do have a couple of older pickups that I use around town or if I need to haul my big heavy-duty equipment trailers as typically my SUV couldn't even pull them out of the barn & my continually changing company vehicle is usually not outfitted to pull a 12,000-14,000 pound load let alone stop it.

 

On the CanBus that is on your Mustang with EPS, you really need some sort of a 2 way communication with that electric  steering rack as first off, it needs that input to give speed sensitive steering feel as well as give you different steering feel selections, it also monitors the EPS steering system voltage. But it's main benefit is hopefully giving you advanced notice if the EPS rack has an issue so you don't get an unforeseen steering lock-up, or get horridly excess steering effort as you enter a corner or part way through a high speed curve. 

 

CanBus is the simple basic system as the EPS is still just a basic electric steering gear with the CAN as it's watchdog & basic communication protocol to tell it your wishes as well as other important vehicle data that it needs.   ---   But just wait!   Steer-by-wire is in your future. But I guess if fly-by-wire is OK on aircraft then what could go wrong with steer-by-wire on an automobile????  

 

But I do know how you feel as I pretty well feel the same way about fully electric vehicles. Until I can get a 1 gallon container of electricity then return & dump that in my vehicle then my take is that EV technology is not there yet.

Or fully charge the vehicle in the same amount of time  that it takes me to fill my fuel tank now, so as of now I will keep the current iteration of EV's as a company vehicle only. Now if they ever get the charging infrastructure in place so recharging is as available,  as easy, & as quick as current gasoline stations  and/or get advanced enough to recharge as you drive through embedded passive charging, or some sort of overhead inductive deal, or better yet an on-board fuel cell that doesn't need some sort of fossil fuel to convert into electricity. I must admit that they (electric vehicles) are a hoot to drive though as they remind me of the slot cars of my youth. Right now I am pretty well on the do-not-disturb list when it comes to electric vehicles but if they ever get the infrastructure figured out, or get on-board electricity production fully sorted out, then I might be interested.    In the meantime I keep hoping for a 72" cut  0-turn electric high power lawn tractor as I wouldn't have far to tow the darn thing if it runs out of juice & charging between uses would sure beat the heck out of  dumping in 8-10 gallons of gasoline after every use.  

 

 

[JamesW]

Hi D.R., I hear what you're saying.  I stopped by the local Ford store today, where I'm well known, and asked the service manager if the see many issues with Canbus and his reply was: "YES"!

 

They have an F150 in the shop with a Canbus problem as we speak that could be fixed with a new wiring harness which is not available so they are hard wiring around the issue.  I bet the owner of the vehicle just loves that as in man your wallet.  It's unfortunate but it seems in today's world there just isn't anything that can be done to avoid this issue unless you want to find an older in good shape vehicle and then there are other issues that probably will come up sooner rather than later especially if you need to use your vehicle out of necessity which most of us one way or another must do.

 

Also, Ford has instructed the shops to ignore certain fault codes altogether if the vehicle runs normally rather than troubleshoot for the root cause of the can bus issue.

 

When it comes to electric vehicles I am waiting for the new battery technologies to eclipse the lithium ion batteries in use today.  There is the (graphene) aluminum ion battery and the sodium ion battery which a Chinese battery manufacturer is going into production on this year and will also be manufactured in this country.  I think the Ford CEO wasn't just blowing smoke when he said that battery tech breakthroughs are on the near horizon that will revolutionize electric vehicles and even result in price wars for these vehicles.  I might consider going electric if all this comes true and I have no doubt that it will.  

 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, JamesW said:

Hi D.R., I hear what you're saying.  I stopped by the local Ford store today, where I'm well known, and asked the service manager if the see many issues with Canbus and his reply was: "YES"!

They have an F150 in the shop with a Canbus problem as we speak that could be fixed with a new wiring harness which is not available so they are hard wiring around the issue.  I bet the owner of the vehicle just loves that as in man your wallet.  It's unfortunate but it seems in today's world there just isn't anything that can be done to avoid this issue unless you want to find an older in good shape vehicle and then there are other issues that probably will come up sooner than later especially if you need to use your vehicle out of necessity which most of us one way or another must do.  Also, Ford has instructed the shops to ignore certain fault codes altogether if the vehicle runs normally rather than troubleshoot for the root cause of the can bus issue.

 

 

Afternoon James 

 

So how is that Ford problem any different than a non-CanBus vehicle that has a problem in the wire harness? It still needs a new harness or a proper harness repair. 

 

If had nickel for every time I have heard someone blame the CanBus for a failure I would almost be rich. 

 

The CAN & CanBus is not well understood so it pretty well gets blindly  blamed for anything that can't be easily diagnosed, or an odd-ball failure in a system that is not easily diagnosed.  

 

Sure, working in the automobile engineering field  I have seen the occasional screw or rivet run through a wire harness shorting the CAN wires, but that is also occasionally done even more often on non CAN vehicles with a screw or rivet or drill through a regular wire harness. Probably the most often re-occurring CAN issue I have delt with is some yahoo removing a vehicle component that is connected to the CanBus  (like a radio or tire TPMS monitor) then just leaving the connector open not realizing that if a connected CAN component is removed then the  open CanBus Hi/Lo wires need to be terminated with a 120 ohm resistor. This type of problem is sometimes difficult to diagnose as it doesn't cause an instant failure, the CAN system can't usually catch it on it's own, & it typically only acts up occasionally when a stray RFI signal enters & confuses the CAN.  

 

I did work with a sort-of CAN problem on a couple of vehicle about a year ago,  there were a couple of same-problem-returning reports on a couple of vehicles so a team of us went to the dealers to look at those specific vehicles.  We quickly found the problem (the tecs working on the vehicles should have found it but didn't have the  experience in that area so they just said a CanBus problem). Those vehicles simply had one of the body modules mounted upside down during assembly & that allowed water to collet on top of the sealed connector then eventually seep into the module (probably due to pressure changes inside the  sealed connector & module due to temperature swings). That was not a real CAN problem, it was a basic design problem as the module mounting should have been originally  designed so it could only be installed correctly during assembly. 

 

That was the modern CanBus side of  water in a module causing an issue (but no fire no, vehicle quit, & no walk home)

Now lets compare that to your older analog relay type control,  ----  Back in the late 1960's Cadillac had a heater motor relay mounted upside down in the engine compartment during vehicle assembly (a large number were built like that), that circuit was protected by a 20 or 25 amp fuse (I can't remember the exact amperage). That upside down relay would eventually take in water (probably a little road salt in the water also). That relay had a fused  12v hot into it all the time (even at key-off). Eventually  that relay had just enough continuity inside it to start getting hot (real hot) but the water added just enough resistance to keep the power draw below the fuse failure point. There were a number of under-hood fires & wire harness burning due to that semi-shorted  relay, some were so bad that they totaled the vehicle & a few reported garage fires if the vehicle was parked inside a garage. Probably would have a been a lot worse but not as many built-on garages back in the 1960's.   

 

When someone (especially in my engineering job) tells me the problem is in the CAN, or in other on-board Bus's the first question I ask is, OK, HOW is the CAN bus or CAN causing the reported problem. Occasionally I get an on-point answer but most are reported as a cut wire found, or poorly sealed connector & oxidized terminals, other damage. But is a corroded terminal or a punctured harness a CAN problem or is it a simple connector sealing or punctured harness issue? 

 

Is a cut harness wire effecting the CAN operation a CanBus problem, or is it just a simple cut wire issue?

 

In most cases blaming the CAN is a lot like blaming the messenger for bad news. 

 

In a lot of cases blaming the CanBus  for a problem is like blaming a broken phone line for your house power quitting. The phone line had nothing to due with the actual power quitting but because the phone line was broken the power company could not call you to tell you that you haven't paid your last few electric power bills.   

 

 

 

 

[Cap]

1 hour ago, JamesW said:

…could be fixed with a new wiring harness which is not available …

 Interesting side bar… I read earlier this year that a large portion of the world’s wiring harnesses were made in Ukraine.  Connecting the dots, maybe that’s why they are hard to get.

[dirtrider]

7 minutes ago, Cap said:

 Interesting side bar… I read earlier this year that a large portion of the world’s wiring harnesses were made in Ukraine.  Connecting the dots, maybe that’s why they are hard to get.

Evening Cap

 

That could be, but typically NEW wire harnesses are difficult to get anyhow as they are pretty complex, expensive & there can be a number of different ones for the same vehicle line  depending on engine option, accessory options, country, etc. Even early in a model year production & late in a model year production can drive different wire harnesses.  

 

Who wants to stock a number of vehicle wire harnesses that might never sell or might not fit.  It really doesn't surprise me that it is taking a while to order one in.  

 

 

[Cap]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

... complex, expensive & there can be a number of different ones for the same vehicle line  depending on engine option, accessory options, country, etc....

Actually, that is precisely why manufacturers are migrating to BUS wiring on vehicles.  They can make a single harness, having many fewer wires, and consequently lower cost and weight.  And they can use that generic wire harness for many vehicles on the same platform, and for various trim levels within a platform...

 

Did I accidentally get back on topic?

[JamesW]

Hmmmmm...Maybe there is a place for the CANbus especially in the automotive world and like it or not pretty much all manufacturers have gone the CANbus route.  Yes, when I think about it todays automobiles definitely have many pluses over vehicles from times past and CANbus technology has played a part in making automobiles what they are today and that overall isn't a bad thing.  

 

That said I like my two motorcycles just the way they are which makes DIY maintenance and troubleshooting far easier, imo.  

[lkraus]

Maybe it's time to bring back the manual spark advance lever and the hand pump for the total loss oil system.  Who knows what mysteries are hiding in an oil filter?

[Cap]

3 hours ago, lkraus said:

Maybe it's time to bring back the manual spark advance lever and the hand pump for the total loss oil system.  Who knows what mysteries are hiding in an oil filter?

 A friend of mine just completed his restoration of a 1920’s vintage Indian motorcycle.  I got to be there when he fired it up for the first time after 30 years of scrounging for parts and fabricating bits.  Very cool.  
 

And  I pointed to some mysterious levers and controls… asking what they were for: the pump for the total loss oil system, and the spark lever. 😀

[Hosstage]

Canbus allows for much smaller wire to be used through the vehicle, as they are just signal wires, not needing to carry electrical load. If no canbus, the wiring to run all the systems would be prohibitively large and heavy. I read that the wiring system is the 3rd heaviest component of a vehicle, behind chassis and drivetrain.