R1150RT surging

[Huzband]

I just bought an '02 R1150RT from a dealer.Surging on the ride home was awfull.Returned for fix,surging is gone ,but now it bogs and stumbles belw 2300rpm,& mpg is down to 36.Obviously too rich(the bike,not me).Am returning again tomorrow.My question is,ever heard of one that could not be made to run correctly at all rpm,s?

Thanks,

Great to be back on a Beemer!

[Paul Mihalka]

Welcome to the asylum! And yes, they can be made to run correctly at all rpm...

[Bob Palin]

2300 rpm is too low to run the boxer engine, some people believe you should never run it below 4000 rpm (and others don't). My '02 1150RT wouldn't run right below 4k until I had the SJ dual plugs installed but now I just keep the revs up anyway.

[Jerry Duke]

Join the BMW North East Florida club http://members.aol.com/bmwnef/. Find someone that can show you how to adjust your valves, and do a throttle synch. Change your plugs to Autolite 3923's and surging should be a thing of the past.

If not, read up on zero=zero http://www.ibmwr.org/r-tech/oilheads/index.shtml

If this doesn't fix it, Techlusion http://www.customdynamics.com/motorcycle...module.htm#BMW_

is about your last hope.

[Huzband]

I,ll be joining at their meeting this weekend.I read the tech on zero-zero,and will read the other today.I,ll try the plugs after tomorrow.

Thanks for the help.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Jerry,

Zero=zero does not apply to an 1150. However, it is still important that (one) the Throttle Position Sensor voltage be in the proper range [< 400 mV at idle] and (two) the bike has learned throttle position.

 

2300 RPM should only be found in transition to more appropriate revs. I mostly stay well above 3K RPM with closer to 4K being the norm. If the bike is properly tuned, I can get down to idle speed in first or second gear, such as when doing U-turns, but when running around, I do tend to keep the revs up.

 

Take a look at the tachometer. Top revs on this bike are near 8000 RPM, operation in the middle of this range is considered normal.

 

Since I have no idea what the dealer did to this bike to cause such a drastic change in running, I'll reserve opinion on what should be done to correct things. BTW, 36 mpg is not horrible for around town riding.

[Huzband]

OK,I get it.I need to pick it up.But it still shouldn't flame out approaching a stop or making a tight turn.At this point,I can't wait to tear in to it myself.

Appreciate your help.

[SWB]

BTW, 36 mpg is not horrible for around town riding.

 

Yeah, but then again, he's only at 2300 RPM. By the time he cranks it up all the way to 4-5000 RPM, he may be getting 16mph.

 

Danny, I'm still not sure what exactly is going wrong on your bike. My R1100RT is geared a bit differently than the R1150RT, but 3000 RPM is really minimum cruising RPM for me, and I usually cruise at 3800 to 4800 RPM. Is your bike stalling when slowing down, coming to a stop, idling poorly, missing, or hanging on acceleration? "Poor running at 2300 RPM" doesn't give us much to go on, except that you're probably lugging your engine.

 

Good luck with your ride. Sounds like this Beemer may be your first. You'll enjoy it when you get the bugs (both bike and rider) worked out. Don't forget to "pre-load" when you shift.

[Huzband]

I keep my cruising rpm between 3500-4000 around town.It only drops below 2300 when negotiating corners.Perhaps I do need to adjust my riding style.This is not my first BMW.I had an R75/6 during the last half of the 70's,an R100 late 80's,and was a certified tech for /6 & /7,so I'm no dummie.However,I'm old enough to admit my limitations.This is my first BMW in seventeen years,and know they are quite different than my last experience.This is why I seek the counsel of this forum.And I truly appreciate everyone's input.

I can't wait to get this worked out,so I can get back to scraping engine guards like it was built for.

 

---------------

'02 R1150RT (Copperhead)

[SWB]

Certainly didn't mean to imply you were a "dummie". (Read my posts a bit, and you'll know which one of us actually is.)

 

You've got more BMW experience than I do. Great bikes.. have fun with yours.

[philbytx]

Danny,

Never had a "surging problem" on my 03 and it runs like a champ through all the gears up to redline However, I have had the occasional "engine hiccup episode" when I am in the wrong gear

 

You never stated the mileage of the bike nor service history. So at a minimum, I would suggest a valve clearance check, TB synch and, if not done so already, new plugs and air filter. This should give you a good benchmark from which to tune it but it really shouldn't need that much more after that - maybe a fuel filter if the mileage warrants.

However, if you don't know the dealer and his tech's very well and given your experience, I would certainly suggest that at a minimum you check the valves and do a TB synch yourself!!!

[KMG_365]

I just bought an '02 R1150RT from a dealer.

So the bike is around five years old now. There could be leaking o-rings somewhere in the intake tract, there could be carbon built up, there could be all manner of crud somewhere in the engine. Has the Motronic been reset? When was the last "Italian Tune-up"?

 

Personally, if I had just bought that bike I would:

 

--give it a thorough once over for obvious mechanical/safety concerns

--do a careful valve adjustment

--put new stock NGK plugs in it

--pull the charcoal cannister if it's still there (sorry, Ken! )

--change the fuel filter if it's been more than 12k miles since that was documented

--reset the Motronic and re-program the TPS

--if it's been more than 40K miles replace the whole cable system and box

--if it's been less, at least make sure all the slack is out of all the throttle cables

--thoroughly check the vacuum seal during a TB synch (spray around the joints in the intake tract with carb cleaner while running and watch for unevenness)

--replace o-rings and gaskets as needed (including the LBBS's)

--button it all back up and run a full tank of Techron through it while running the snot out of it--flogging it mercilessly somewhere out in the twisties (or as close as you can get in Florida! )

--put good gas back in and dump the oil and change the filter

--do another anal retentive valve adjustment

--do another TB synch now that the valves are cleaned off

 

Then I'd take it out for a slow cruise in too high a gear out in the neighborhood and see how the surging is!

 

 

 

 

BTW, how long has it been since the bike had a thorough EVO brake bleed??

[Huzband]

Copperhead has 16K on the clock,but I don't know it's service history.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

You will only know when you have done it yourself in that case.

 

Your dealer may be able to help you somewhat if the bike has been serviced at a BMW dealer. They are supposed to keep records. Drop in and have him check the VIN on their database. BMW maintains these records (not the dealer) and you should be able to get where/when all the services were done.

 

I would do everything on Jamie's list anyway.

 

One more point, refering to your earlier responses on the RPM thing, downshift before the turn and accelerate through same. From your response, "revs only drop to 2300 while turning", it would seem you enter a turn under trailing throttle and stay there. Much better for both handling and the motor to be on the gas to at least neutral throttle (neither accelerating nor decellerating) through the turn. No, the RT won't drop to its knees under trailing throttle like your older bikes did, but the suspension is still far happier under power.

[DEF]

I keep my cruising rpm between 3500-4000 around town.It only drops below 2300 when negotiating corners.Perhaps I do need to adjust my riding style.This is not my first BMW.I had an R75/6 during the last half of the 70's,an R100 late 80's,and was a certified tech for /6 & /7,so I'm no dummie.However,I'm old enough to admit my limitations.This is my first BMW in seventeen years,and know they are quite different than my last experience.This is why I seek the counsel of this forum.And I truly appreciate everyone's input.

I can't wait to get this worked out,so I can get back to scraping engine guards like it was built for.

 

---------------

'02 R1150RT (Copperhead)

 

My "01 GS is ridden routinely in top gear at 2300 RPM for long distances with about 43 MPG resulting (commuting) with no surge, driveline snatch or drivability issues. Then, if I want to go faster, I advance the throttle to about 5800RPM in top gear (about 135-140 MPH...not for commuting). At 3000RPM, my GS is above the legal speeds in any state. I routinely cruise at about 3500 RPM, well above legal speeds anywhere on the continent.

 

The boxer is meant to be ridden throughout the whole RPM range. It produces excellent torque and performance at most any RPM above a fast idle, in most any gear at most any speed above a crawl. Revving the boxer to keep it smooth is a waste of fuel and unnecessary. If your engine doesn’t run correctly (surges, stumbles or otherwise doesn’t perform correctly), you need adjustments or repairs, not new chips, cylinder head work, more spark plugs or an aftermarket exhaust. These mods cost money and produce limited results and often merely mask the original problem or maladjustment.

 

All boxers can surge……all boxers can be adjusted to eliminate surge without throwing away OE parts or sacrificing fuel mileage.

 

It’s all in valve timing, fuel delivery and spark advance…nothing more! The Motronic fuel maps are just fine. Throwing them away with an aftermarket chip and new fuel maps is not necessary. Porting heads and adding spark plugs is expensive and while it may correct the malady, it is unnecessary. Aftermarket pipes or elimination of the CAT is not a good idea, removing the charcoal canister is again, not a good idea. Adjust your boxer to factory specs and maintain it there. I will serve you for 250,000 miles and need only routine factory recommended service and fluids....but, you already kow that....and yes, you're no dummie........

[DEF]

I just bought an '02 R1150RT from a dealer.

So the bike is around five years old now. There could be leaking o-rings somewhere in the intake tract, there could be carbon built up, there could be all manner of crud somewhere in the engine. Has the Motronic been reset? When was the last "Italian Tune-up"?

 

Personally, if I had just bought that bike I would:

 

--do a careful valve adjustment

--put new stock NGK plugs in it

--pull the charcoal canister if it's still there (sorry, Ken! )

--change the fuel filter if it's been more than 12k miles since that was documented

--reset the Motronic and re-program the TPS

--if it's been more than 40K miles replace the whole cable system and box

--if it's been less, at least make sure all the slack is out of all the throttle cables

--thoroughly check the vacuum seal during a TB synch (spray around the joints in the intake tract with carb cleaner while running and watch for unevenness)

--replace o-rings and gaskets as needed (including the LBBS's)

--button it all back up and run a full tank of Techron through it while running the snot out of it--flogging it mercilessly somewhere out in the twisties (or as close as you can get in Florida! )

--put good gas back in and dump the oil and change the filter

--do another anal-retentive valve adjustment

--do another TB synch now that the valves are cleaned off

 

Then I'd take it out for a slow cruise in too high a gear out in the neighborhood and see how the surging is!

 

 

 

 

BTW, how long has it been since the bike had a thorough EVO brake bleed??

 

Comments on the above…

 

--give it a thorough once over for obvious mechanical/safety concerns. GOOD ADVICE

--put new stock NGK plugs in it. NEVER RUN NGK PLUGS THEY FOUL AND HAVE A DESIGN THAT SHEILDS THE SPARK FROM THE MIXTURE. RUN AUTOLITE 3923s WINTER, 3922s SUMMER.

--pull the charcoal canister if it's still there. WHY? THE CANISTER HAS NO IMPACT ON ENGINE DRIVEABILITY. IT IS THERE TO KEEPTHE ENVIRONMENT CLEAN.

--change the fuel filter if it's been more than 12k miles since that was documented. GOOD ADVICE.

--reset the Motronic and re-program the TPS. GOOD ADVICE.

--if it's been more than 40K miles replace the whole cable system and box. NO COMMENT.

--thoroughly check the vacuum seal during a TB synch (spray around the joints in the intake tract with carb cleaner while running and watch for unevenness) GOOD ADVICE.

--if it's been less, at least make sure all the slack is out of all the throttle cables. GOOD ADVICE.

--replace o-rings and gaskets as needed (including the LBBS's). VERY GOOD ADVICE.

--button it all back up and run a full tank of Techron through it while running the snot out of it--flogging it mercilessly somewhere out in the twisties (or as close as you can get in Florida! ) RIDE IT NORMALLY AT LOW SPEEDS AND HIGH SPEEDS. FUEL SYSTEM CONDITIONERS NEED SOME TIME TO RESIDE AT THE TIP OF THE INJECTORS. ALSO, WHEN THE ENGINE IS STOPPED, THESE CHEMICALS WORK BEST TO LOOSEN AND ELIMATE DEPOSITS AT THE NEXT COLD START. RUNNING THE SNOT OUT OF IT DOES LITTLE FOR THE FUEL SYSTEM.

--put good gas back in and dump the oil and change the filter. NO COMMENT.

 

--do another anal-retentive valve adjustment. THE FIRST VALVE LASH IF DONE PROPERLY WILL STILL BE FINE.

--do another TB synch now that the valves are cleaned off. OK BUT LIKELY UNECESSARY. TB SYNC HAS LITTLE TO DO WITH SURGING.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Dennis,

I would be curious as to what gearing you have in your GS. My 1100S, which is geared a bit higher and makes more power than an RT or GS tops out at 143 mph at 7800 RPM. My Blackbird, which has the same gearing within a percentage point or so goes 97 mph at 5800 RPM. I have strong doubts that a GS, geared as you say, could even get to 120 mph given its 72 RWHP at 7500 RPM or so. Perhaps a typo on your part?

 

Again, 3000 RPM is about 50 mph. Even in the Northeast with its Draconian speed limits, that is still below highway speed limits.

 

Curious minds want to know.

[KMG_365]

Boy, so much good stuff . . . it's hard to know where to start!

 

But in any event, shouting won't make you appear any more knowledgeable, or correct. In fact the contrary is usually the case.

 

Let's see . . . in 105,000 miles on my 2003 R1150RT, and in 80,000 miles on Leslie's 2002 R1150RT (110,000 miles total on hers), we've been running the stock NGK's the entire time and I have yet to see one come out anything other than a perfect light tan. But if you want to experiment with something else, by all means, it's your motor. If you're happy with the way it runs and you don't blow a hole in the piston crown, that's great! Do let us know how everything looks when you pull the heads.

 

When the charcoal cannister's lines either plug or leak--which they frequently do--they can and often do impact balance and driveability. I'm a card-carrying tree-hugger myself, but I know how to strike a balance between the unreasonableness of riding a motorcycle in the first place and being a slave to someone else's idea of "the perfect solution" to emissions.

 

TB synch/balance does indeed have an effect on surging (some bikes more than others), and anyone who has been reading this board for awhile and/or gone to a Tech Daze to learn how to do a proper service will likely attest to that fact from their own experience, nuff said.

 

The flogging of the bike through a tank of Techron immediately before changing the oil (which it contaminates) is not just for the fuel injectors but for the carbon build up in the cylinders. With only 16,000 miles in five years it appears the bike was pampered and it is very likely that this bike was never taken to the limit. With only 16k miles on it it is still not finished breaking-in anyway and who knows the riding style/history of the bike's previous owner? If those 16k miles had been put on in primarily short commuting type trips without ever getting the engine up to operating temperature long enough to burn off accumulated carbon, I would want to get that crud out of there and let the rings finally get acquainted with parts of the cylinder walls they might not have met yet!

 

During this phase I would also keep a close eye on the oil level as the consumption might still remain high until the break-in is finished. Mine stopped drinking oil at about 24k miles--like someone had shut off a tap. I never need to add oil between 6k changes now and I'm still using BMW dino 20W50.

 

The reason for the second valve adjust (and TB synch) after the "Italian Tune Up" is to put some slack back in the valves that might've been taken up by the valves finishing their wear-in seating (especially likely if the bike was previously ridden as described above). My valves required constant tweaking in the first 20k miles, only slight adjustments for the next 30k miles or so and I just made two very small adjustments to the top two exhaust valves at the last 102,000 mile service. I check them faithfully every 6k (just so I know if I've got a problem developing), but that was the first time I've bothered to adjust ANY of them in the last 50,000 miles. These bikes take a long time to break-in, but fortunately they also take a long time to wear out!

 

The other thing I forgot to mention was pulling that LPB and putting it in your toolbox for safe keeping!

[SWB]

When the charcoal cannister's lines either plug or leak--which they frequently do--they can and often do impact balance and driveability.

 

Hmmm... carbon filter, more rubber lines .. guess I should replace them too, to ensure a sealed (and unblocked) system. Thanks for the hint. I've had so many problems with vacuum leaks in cars, I want everything rubber in the intake or exhaust system "new" on this bike. I'm not a tree-hugger type (just a responsible, Teddy Roosevelt type conservationist), but I don't want to pull the cannister because it might cause resale problems down the road.

 

With only 16,000 miles in five years it appears the bike was pampered and it is very likely that this bike was never taken to the limit.

 

When I first got my Beemer with 50K miles of police work on it's clock, it drank so much oil that I was sure I'd picked up a lemon. I was buying Mobil1 15W50 by the case just to top it off daily. Then I read about Beemer break-in procedures, and realized that this City PD bike had probably never been over 50mph, or at least not for long enough to make a difference. I road it at 80MPH (and in 4th a lot of the time) 90 miles every day for four months, and it looks like the oil "problem" is gone.

 

</end thread hijack>

[DEF]

Boy, so much good stuff . . . it's hard to know where to start!

 

But in any event, shouting won't make you appear any more knowledgeable, or correct. In fact the contrary is usually the case.

 

Let's see . . . in 105,000 miles on my 2003 R1150RT, and in 80,000 miles on Leslie's 2002 R1150RT (110,000 miles total on hers), we've been running the stock NGK's the entire time and I have yet to see one come out anything other than a perfect light tan. But if you want to experiment with something else, by all means, it's your motor. If you're happy with the way it runs and you don't blow a hole in the piston crown, that's great! Do let us know how everything looks when you pull the heads.

 

When the charcoal cannister's lines either plug or leak--which they frequently do--they can and often do impact balance and driveability. I'm a card-carrying tree-hugger myself, but I know how to strike a balance between the unreasonableness of riding a motorcycle in the first place and being a slave to someone else's idea of "the perfect solution" to emissions.

 

TB synch/balance does indeed have an effect on surging (some bikes more than others), and anyone who has been reading this board for awhile and/or gone to a Tech Daze to learn how to do a proper service will likely attest to that fact from their own experience, nuff said.

 

The flogging of the bike through a tank of Techron immediately before changing the oil (which it contaminates) is not just for the fuel injectors but for the carbon build up in the cylinders. With only 16,000 miles in five years it appears the bike was pampered and it is very likely that this bike was never taken to the limit. With only 16k miles on it it is still not finished breaking-in anyway and who knows the riding style/history of the bike's previous owner? If those 16k miles had been put on in primarily short commuting type trips without ever getting the engine up to operating temperature long enough to burn off accumulated carbon, I would want to get that crud out of there and let the rings finally get acquainted with parts of the cylinder walls they might not have met yet!

 

During this phase I would also keep a close eye on the oil level as the consumption might still remain high until the break-in is finished. Mine stopped drinking oil at about 24k miles--like someone had shut off a tap. I never need to add oil between 6k changes now and I'm still using BMW dino 20W50.

 

The reason for the second valve adjust (and TB synch) after the "Italian Tune Up" is to put some slack back in the valves that might've been taken up by the valves finishing their wear-in seating (especially likely if the bike was previously ridden as described above). My valves required constant tweaking in the first 20k miles, only slight adjustments for the next 30k miles or so and I just made two very small adjustments to the top two exhaust valves at the last 102,000 mile service. I check them faithfully every 6k (just so I know if I've got a problem developing), but that was the first time I've bothered to adjust ANY of them in the last 50,000 miles. These bikes take a long time to break-in, but fortunately they also take a long time to wear out!

 

The other thing I forgot to mention was pulling that LPB and putting it in your toolbox for safe keeping!

 

KMG-

 

I didn't mean to shout but only to separate my responses vs your statements.

 

None of your statements are wrong. Mine are based upon my work on several oilheads which had similar driveability problems.

 

Oilheads respond to TBS sync but only if valve timing is balanced between both cylinders. Valve timing is a critical element which contributes in a major way to engine driveability (surging).

 

Your right...so am I.

[DEF]

Dennis,

I would be curious as to what gearing you have in your GS. My 1100S, which is geared a bit higher and makes more power than an RT or GS tops out at 143 mph at 7800 RPM. My Blackbird, which has the same gearing within a percentage point or so goes 97 mph at 5800 RPM. I have strong doubts that a GS, geared as you say, could even get to 120 mph given its 72 RWHP at 7500 RPM or so. Perhaps a typo on your part?

 

Again, 3000 RPM is about 50 mph. Even in the Northeast with its Draconian speed limits, that is still below highway speed limits.

 

Curious minds want to know.

 

Stock gearing. I often ride at WOT for 5-10 miles sprints. Speedo indicates about 135-140. I don't bother to even look at the tachometer. At 50MPH, the GS is turning about 2400 RPM in 6th gear.

 

Stock boxers with limited RWHP will make 130MPH.

 

The GS will cruise all day long at 100MPH at slightly above 4500RPM, right in the HP sweet spot.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Gotta say, that is one fast GS. Allowing for BMW's 8% optimistic speedo your still seeing 123 or so. Pretty good considering the aerodynamics of a GS. Given your reported RPM in top gear, you probably have the long gear transmission in there. A little taller gearing than my 1100S which at 5000 RPM is indicating 92 mph, GPS actual 84.