$11k repair - 2018 Cayenne - What would you do?

[John Ranalletta]

Porsche dealer just told a friend the estimate to repair a defective seal is $11k.  The seal or gasket is internal requiring engine removal.  The cost is almost all labor hours.

 

The friend has the $ if he decides in favor of the repair.  No warranty.  The dealer will not take the Cayenne on trade unless repaired.

 

Repair it?  Foist it on another dealer in trade w/o informing dealer?  Auction?  

[realshelby]

There are a lot of independent shops that have experience with Porsche around the country. I would inquire to them, and even if you have to ship the vehicle a couple states away.... I don't know what seal it is, but removing an engine should not take more than one day, then the work, then another day to reinstall it. Give it 30 hours of shop time at $130 per hour. I simply cannot understand twice or more in labor?

[roadscholar]

Correct, some high end dealers (not just Porsche) think they have a license to steal and know many customers will just go along with it so it becomes their business model. Leaves a bad taste for many others though and helps tarnish the image of the brand.

 

Google what the priblem is and there will likely be a video on what’s involved to fix it.

[Rougarou]

Definitely get an independent shop estimate. 

 

If I'm going to dump $11k into a repair, I'm going to drive the vehicle until I have my $11k back. When the tranny on my RT started acting stoopid, I weighed the option of repairing, then just over a year later replacing vs buying a new bike.  The cost of the repair and subsequent replaced tranny was still cheaper than a new bike and that's been 80k miles ago.......so I think I have my return on repair investment covered.

 

Sad that a four year old vehicle needs that much attention.  

[Rougarou]

Also, I'd be writing Porsche a nifty letter on how a four year old vehicle needs a $11k repair.

 

It worked for me when I wrote to BMW for valve cover gaskets to get replaced out of warranty.

[9Mary7]

+1 on checking with Independent shops.........I'm sure the local PCA guys know an honest and competent shop.

[roadscholar]

21 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Also, I'd be writing Porsche a nifty letter on how a four year old vehicle needs a $11k repair.

 

It worked for me when I wrote to BMW for valve cover gaskets to get replaced out of warranty.

 

Write to Ray Shaffer at Porsche NA in classic car development (I taught him at least half of everything he knows : ), it’s not his department but he’ll get the info to the right person. He’s the tall guy on the right.

 

https://www.porsche.com/international/accessoriesandservice/classic/factoryrestoration/atlanta/team/

[John Ranalletta]

2 minutes ago, roadscholar said:

 

Write to Ray Shaffer at Porsche NA in classic car development (I taught him at least half of everything he knows : ), it’s not his department but he’ll get the info to the right person. He’s the talk guy on the right.

 

https://www.porsche.com/international/accessoriesandservice/classic/factoryrestoration/atlanta/team/

Thanks. Forwarded all these comments to him.  Currently, he's on a flight to LV for an Aerosmith concert and a bit of "forget everything" potion.

[szurszewski]

5 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

Thanks. Forwarded all these comments to him.  Currently, he's on a flight to LV for an Aerosmith concert and a bit of "forget everything" potion.

 

 

Hey - some friends of ours are on the crew for that extravaganza - supposed to be a good show :)

 

Of course, now that I know your friend can afford a Porsche AND ridiculously priced concert tickets (only several hundred for the far back balcony - but that seems silly when you can spend a couple grand be ON the stage!), I suspect the repair won’t be too much of a stretch - especially if he can find an indpendent shop that could cut it down to five or six grand ;)

 

 

[George S.]

Car dealers have twice tried to pound me on a price that was ridiculous. My Dodge P/U with only 17,000 miles, but two months out of warranty had the cam gear fail while driving locally. Had it towed to the Dealer that I bought it from, they wanted $6,000 to replace the engine. ( I appealed to the regional rep for a warranty good faith repair and was refused). When I said no, and showed up with a tow truck, they backpedaled, saying they gave me the high estimate, and it might only be $4,000. I still said no, and as I was leaving, a mechanic ran up to me and handed me his personal card and said he could do it in his garage for $2,500. I still said no. Another dealer found a work around the warranty refusal and it was replaced for no cost. 
 

Daughter’s Toyota’s transmission was bucking and jerking. Toyota said I needed a completely new trans, and it would be,  you guesses it-$6,000. I took it to an independent shop who immediately without even looking at it said that I didn’t need a trans.  They replaced an electronic module in 2 days for $1200. 
 

So, don’t agree to the first quote or even the diagnosis. 

[roadscholar]

Hmmm, a Dodge and a Toyota, amazing : )

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, George S. said:

Car dealers have twice tried to pound me on a price that was ridiculous. My Dodge P/U with only 17,000 miles, but two months out of warranty had the cam gear fail while driving locally. Had it towed to the Dealer that I bought it from, they wanted $6,000 to replace the engine. ( I appealed to the regional rep for a warranty good faith repair and was refused). When I said no, and showed up with a tow truck, they backpedaled, saying they gave me the high estimate, and it might only be $4,000. I still said no, and as I was leaving, a mechanic ran up to me and handed me his personal card and said he could do it in his garage for $2,500. I still said no. Another dealer found a work around the warranty refusal and it was replaced for no cost. 
 

Daughter’s Toyota’s transmission was bucking and jerking. Toyota said I needed a completely new trans, and it would be,  you guesses it-$6,000. I took it to an independent shop who immediately without even looking at it said that I didn’t need a trans.  They replaced an electronic module in 2 days for $1200. 
 

So, don’t agree to the first quote or even the diagnosis. 

 

VW tried to get me on catalytic converters for a passat wagon v6.  Said I needed all the cat's replaced,.....codes pointed to cats.  Took to another shop that specializes in German vehicles, they sent me to Meineke for exhaust work as they said that's where they send all exhaust issues,......cat's were fine, Meineke replaced a flex joint.  $2500 vs $200.  Meineke guy even said if it ends up being a cat, he'd replace it with a universal for only $600.......never popped a code after the flex joint swap.

 

 

[EffBee]

These days, car dealers are super inflating many repairs since they're not making any money selling new cars (yes, they jack up the few they get, but it's not like they're selling 100 cars a month like the old days).  My sister was quoted $950 to change the spark plugs on her 2014 Highlander.  She looked around and found an independent mechanic who did it for under $300.  Oh, and many independent mechanics know the dealers are jacking things to the stratosphere, so they're only jacking them through the roof.  Everyone thinks the economy is going to go to hell (as if it hasn't already) and they have to get what they can, while they can.  A good mechanic is fair and knows you'll come back and that he'll make a fair profit off you for years to come.

[John Ranalletta]

16 minutes ago, EffBee said:

These days, car dealers are super inflating many repairs since they're not making any money selling new cars (yes, they jack up the few they get, but it's not like they're selling 100 cars a month like the old days).  My sister was quoted $950 to change the spark plugs on her 2014 Highlander.  She looked around and found an independent mechanic who did it for under $300.  Oh, and many independent mechanics know the dealers are jacking things to the stratosphere, so they're only jacking them through the roof.  Everyone thinks the economy is going to go to hell (as if it hasn't already) and they have to get what they can, while they can.  A good mechanic is fair and knows you'll come back and that he'll make a fair profit off you for years to come.

The shop I used for BMW service always did a great job even if the rates were higher than I thought the should be.

 

Had a whine from the aft of the X3 and asked them to investigate.  "Well, it could be a differential or transfer case, say, est. $3k".   2nd shop?  $300 wheel bearing.

 

X3 4- cyl needed spark plug change @ 60K.  Flat rate book?  $300.  Bought four plugs on Amazon for ca. $100 and a socket $8.  

[roadscholar]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

2nd shop?  $300 wheel bearing.

 

Likely they plugged in diagnostics and it indicated that. My MB tech (with access to all the factory codes) can diagnose nearly everything on the '08 ML320 including a bad wheel bearing.

[John Ranalletta]

The guys who diagnosed/fixed it are old school.  The X’s diagnostic isn’t that sophisticated.      He said, “Louder when turning left. It’s a bearing.”  

[roadscholar]

4 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

The guys who diagnosed/fixed it are old school.  The X’s diagnostic isn’t that sophisticated.      He said, “Louder when turning left. It’s a bearing.”  

 

That's how I can usually tell, turn the steering wheel back and forth, it only makes a noise in one direction because of the load on it, 

[9Mary7]

That's 'cause most "technicians" are just parts changers..........true mechanics with diag. skills are harder and harder to find.

[Rougarou]

9 minutes ago, 9Mary7 said:

That's 'cause most "technicians" are just parts changers..........true mechanics with diag. skills are harder and harder to find.

 

Most "technicians", only know what the codes tell them, nothing more.

 

 

[ESokoloff]

17 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Most "technicians", only know what YouTube tells them, nothing more.

 

 

Fixed it for ya. 

[George S.]

17 hours ago, roadscholar said:

Hmmm, a Dodge and a Toyota, amazing : )

 

?

[szurszewski]

14 hours ago, EffBee said:

My sister was quoted $950 to change the spark plugs on her 2014 Highlander.

If you look at the “official” procedure to change the plugs on that engine, and assume a “normal” shop rate, that price is not out of line. Not saying she should have paid it, but I’m sure the other mechanic used a “if you loosen this, wiggle that, lean this way really carefully” procedure to cut the hours down. Of course, that just means instead of being frustrated with the dealer, your sister should be frustrated with whoever approved the design ;)

 

 

(Ford had an engine used in a lot of early Escapes that - officially - required pulling the engine to replace the alternator…oof!)

[John Ranalletta]

11 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

If you look at the “official” procedure to change the plugs on that engine, and assume a “normal” shop rate, that price is not out of line. Not saying she should have paid it, but I’m sure the other mechanic used a “if you loosen this, wiggle that, lean this way really carefully” procedure to cut the hours down. Of course, that just means instead of being frustrated with the dealer, your sister should be frustrated with whoever approved the design ;)

 

 

(Ford had an engine used in a lot of early Escapes that - officially - required pulling the engine to replace the alternator…oof!)

I follow an auto tech, Rainman Ray, on YouTube.  Interesting guy and pretty good tech IMO.  To your point, the actual repair or op might be relatively simple, but, man, he often spends huge amounts of time just getting to the part needing attention.

[Rougarou]

Faye Hadley on how to change the plugs on a Boxer 3.6.  

 

 

 

Plenty of folks out there that can show how to do the simple things "outside the manufacturer's step by step recommendation".

 

I did the CV axles on that VW Passat my daughter had some years ago, and no way was it in line with the manual.

 

 

[roadscholar]

1 hour ago, George S. said:

 

?

 

Tongue in cheek George, German cars catch a lot of flak on the net for being over-engineered so when supposedly more reliable American or Japanese cars break down I try to give them equal opportunity.

[Rougarou]

1 minute ago, roadscholar said:

 

Tongue in cheek George, German cars catch a lot of flak on the net for being over-engineered so when supposedly more reliable American or Japanese cars break down I try to give them equal opportunity.

 

Dodge and reliable????

[szurszewski]

14 minutes ago, roadscholar said:

 

Tongue in cheek George, German cars catch a lot of flak on the net for being over-engineered so when supposedly more reliable American or Japanese cars break down I try to give them equal opportunity.

 

12 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

 

Dodge and reliable????

 

This is what threw me off as well! If @roadscholar had just said, a Toyota problem? Incredible! I would have got the joke, but when you added in an American car, and particularly a Dodge, I figured there was maybe some subtlety I was missing ;)

 

 

[roadscholar]

I had a 92 Dodge van/camper once, it was perfectly reliable except the AC blower motor only worked on 3 of the 4 speeds. There was an excessive amount of play in the steering too but I think it was made that way, it was pretty exciting in the crosswinds out west. We were in north Texas one time and I asked my buddy Dave if he’d drive awhile so I could rest. He pulled over after 15 minutes and said, I can’t drive this thing : )

[TSConver]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

I follow an auto tech, Rainman Ray, on YouTube.  Interesting guy and pretty good tech IMO.  To your point, the actual repair or op might be relatively simple, but, man, he often spends huge amounts of time just getting to the part needing attention.

 

I watch Ray as well.  Also south main auto is another good one where he actually diagnosis issues versus just loading up the parts cannon.

[konacyclist]

2 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Most "technicians", only know what the codes tell them, nothing more.

 

 

 

Went to my VW dealer with a problem with my 2010 Jetta creeping aggressively when stopped at a traffic light, kind of like an excessively high idle. This after the same dealer had done a bunch of work on the car. He asked if the check engine light was on. When I replied no, he said they wouldn't be able to tell what the problem was if the car had not "thrown a code" to tell them what needed correcting. This was from a senior service advisor with some VW service awards visible on his desk. That may have a true statement but to me it was an admission that they didn't have technicians with enough diagnostic skills of their own to find the problem. I went to an independent shop for some other issue with the car and when the car was returned to me the idle problem was no longer there. Now I take my car to that independent shop for all my service needs.

[John Ranalletta]

1 hour ago, roadscholar said:

 

Tongue in cheek George, German cars catch a lot of flak on the net for being over-engineered so when supposedly more reliable American or Japanese cars break down I try to give them equal opportunity.

YouTuber LegitStreetCars is a certified MB tech.  I remember one episode where he had to replace a $1 o-ring under the intake.  Ouch.

[roadscholar]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

YouTuber LegitStreetCars is a certified MB tech.  I remember one episode where he had to replace a $1 o-ring under the intake.  Ouch.

 

If that o-ring had cost $85. it probably wouldn't have been as big a deal : )

 

I'm really lucky to have the tech that works on my stuff. Last week the diesel ML went into limp mode which sucks when you're towing 5000lb cars around, it'll still do it but surrounding traffic gets pissed because acceleration is about like a loaded I8 wheeler.  He diagnosed it as bad stepper motors in the intake manifold (it's got I80k miles). He gave them to me because there were a few good ones laying around the shop as there had been a recall to replace the entire unit. He wired them to stay wide open so it's got even more power now with no loss in drivability, definitely a win. 

[George S.]

5 hours ago, roadscholar said:

 

Tongue in cheek George, German cars catch a lot of flak on the net for being over-engineered so when supposedly more reliable American or Japanese cars break down I try to give them equal opportunity.

To be fair to Toyota, that car, a RAV4, had over 150K on it when the trans started to act up.
The Dodge’s engine grenaded with only 17K.

[Hosstage]

A friend had a Chevy (?) truck with a tranny that was acting up, of course $2800+ for a rebuild, talked to another shop, they said check engine to body ground. All good.

A second opinion usually doesn't hurt.

 

I used to work for a really cheap-ass boss, had an early '90s Ford company pickup, they were notorious for having bad torque converters, $1900 was the going price. I had a friend with a shop, said he'd do it for $1600. Boss thought it was still too much. Called a half dozen shops, finally found one that would do it for $1200. I said I doubt it, but ok, go for it.

When he went to pick it up, it was $2100, they said it was worse than they thought, needed a new converter.

It brought joy to my heart, guy was a tool.

[John Ranalletta]

Had a '97 Camry engine grenade 20 miles north of Ocala long ago about midnight.  Was able to coast of interstate to a truck stop.

 

It dropped at least one valve.  $2500 and 5 days later I picked it up.  The tech told me to drive it a while and bring it back for a check over.  I told him 11 hours later I'd be in Indianapolis.  It ran flawlessly until I traded it.

 

Cruising up 75 south of ATL, a warning light alit on the dash.  I was leaned back in the seat but leaned forward, alarmed the engine was grenading again.  The light went off.  An hour or so later, I was relaxed when the light alit again.  I leaned forward and it went off.  I was worried.

 

The issue wasn't the engine.  The driver's door was misaligned and never did close properly.  As I relaxed in the seat and leaned into the door, the door ajar light alit.  When I leaned forward, it turned off.  Scared me for sure.

[John Ranalletta]

Update on the friend's Porsche:

 

Traded the Cayenne on a 2022 Maserati Gibli with extended powertrain warranty.  Doesn't Maserati fly techs from Bologna for warranty engine work?

[Lowndes]

On 11/17/2022 at 3:46 PM, roadscholar said:

Hmmm, a Dodge and a Toyota, amazing : )

 

Well, it isn't really "Dodge" and "Toyota" doing it, the common denominator is home grown, USA-bred service techs working at the dealers and running these scams.  They get paid on the income $, not legitamacy/integrity/honesty.  The sad part is that it works 9 out of 10 times, or more, because ......yeah.

[roadscholar]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

Update on the friend's Porsche:

 

Traded the Cayenne on a 2022 Maserati Gibli with extended powertrain warranty.  Doesn't Maserati fly techs from Bologna for warranty engine work?

 

I don’t know but pretty sure he jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Keep us posted. 

[roadscholar]

56 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

 

Well, it isn't really "Dodge" and "Toyota" doing it, the common denominator is home grown, USA-bred service techs working at the dealers and running these scams.  They get paid on the income $, not legitamacy/integrity/honesty.  The sad part is that it works 9 out of 10 times, or more, because ......yeah.

 

On 11/18/2022 at 10:28 AM, roadscholar said:

 

Tongue in cheek George, German cars catch a lot of flak on the net for being over-engineered so when supposedly more reliable American or Japanese cars break down I try to give them equal opportunity.

 

[John Ranalletta]

1 hour ago, Lowndes said:

 

Well, it isn't really "Dodge" and "Toyota" doing it, the common denominator is home grown, USA-bred service techs working at the dealers and running these scams.  They get paid on the income $, not legitamacy/integrity/honesty.  The sad part is that it works 9 out of 10 times, or more, because ......yeah.

 

Things may have changed since I had retail dealer clients.  The estimate for every job consisted of parts, shop supplies, book-labor-hours & taxes.  Techs, who normally work 40 hrs, had to complete 60 hours of book-labor-hours to make any money at all. 

Example: If the book = 4 hours for a driveshaft replacment, the tech needs to do it in 2.66 hrs to stay on the 60-hour pace.  If he takes 5 hrs, he's got to make up ca. 3.5 on the next jobs and not fall behind on those jobs to stay on pace. (somebody check my math...I heard there'd be no math).

 

Come Thursday and Friday, if the tech is running behind, the temptation exists to really rush those days' jobs out as fast as possible.  So, if it still works this way, the tech is somewhat at fault, but it's the system that sucks.  BTW, if the shop manager was a jerk, he could assign "solid gold" jobs to his favorite techs and bury the rest.  Even a good shop manager had to balance "fairness" with the shop "beating the book" every week.  Newly-minted techs usually starved until they got some experience.

 

This incentive pay system puts pressure on the techs to hurry.  Ideally, we want a tech who's patient, methodical and careful, but the system doesn't support those characteristics.  Some techs thrive in the systems, usually those who find the pressure enjoyable.  At the time, tech turnover was very high but dealers were and probably still are reticent to change the game, because incentive pay systems allow them to delegate the business risk to the lowest level of employees in the business.  It's a nefarious game played by many businesses (see Wells Fargo & their tellers, truck drivers paid by the mile, et al). 

 

Forgot:  Warranty limits and customer expectations also play a part.  Customers want to know, "What's it going to cost?" and are likely unwilling to say, "Whatever it costs is okay."

Again, dated info: auto insurers used to and still may require collision shops to use a certain % of cheaper, non-OEM body panels.  A friend in the business advised:  have collision repair requiring new body panels done early in the month.  Because the OEM panels were easier & required less time to install, the techs and shop manager could "gain on the book" early in the month.  They would switch to non-OEM panels toward month end to meet the insurers' quota. 

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

4 minutes ago, roadscholar said:

 

I don’t know but pretty sure he jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Keep us posted. 

I agree.  He's got the itch and the scratch.  Says the Glibi is a "driver's car" whatever that means.

[Hosstage]

10 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

I agree.  He's got the itch and the scratch.  Says the Glibi is a "driver's car" whatever that means.

That means it's a hoot to drive, right up until it breaks, often.

[John Ranalletta]

1 minute ago, Hosstage said:

That means it's a hoot to drive, right up until it breaks, often.

Well, his office is a short walk to the dealer; so, there's that.

 

 

[9Mary7]

5 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

Traded the Cayenne on a 2022 Maserati Gibli

Think that it cost a lot more than the Porsche repair quote.........+the Cayenne is a much better car.

[szurszewski]

21 hours ago, John Ranalletta said:

Update on the friend's Porsche:

 

Traded the Cayenne on a 2022 Maserati Gibli with extended powertrain warranty.  Doesn't Maserati fly techs from Bologna for warranty engine work?

 

19 hours ago, roadscholar said:

 

I don’t know but pretty sure he jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Keep us posted. 

 

 

Right? I admit to not being up to this year current on Maserati news, but my first thought was: he must have been upset by how reliable the Porsche was and decided to replace it by something more prone to failure and with an even greater/faster rate of depreciation!