A.I. in cars

[9Mary7]

So this is getting worse.......not just killing pedestrians anymore.

 

 

[TEWKS]

Kinda miss the good ol’ days when you just had to watch for the drunks! 

[BrianT]

They've also been known to run into stationary firetrucks stopped in the roadway during the day with their emergency lights on.  Somehow not seeing the stationary, red, flashy, large object tells me I'm just as invisible to Tesla as I am to a non Tesla driver.

 

The below pic is what happened when firefighters from the city I worked for were rendering aid at the scene of a previous crash on the freeway.  The fire truck was parked blocking the HOV lane with its emergency lights on to protect the firefighters while they were in the roadway tending the people involved in the original accident.  There have been other documented similar Tesla into firetruck accidents including a fatal one (Tesla passenger, not firefighter).

 

[wbw6cos]

Why aren't the human operators involved?   Were they taking a nap?   The Tesla operator should still have some control over the automated function.   Amirite?   

[9Mary7]

1 hour ago, wbw6cos said:

Amirite?

Under the law you are correct.... Driver is liable.......could be reckless if one could prove that they knew the system is faulty.

[RandyShields]

4 hours ago, 9Mary7 said:

Under the law you are correct.... Driver is liable.......could be reckless if one could prove that they knew the system is faulty.

Actually, in a crash, the driver is responsible and liable regardless of the AI system being in place or knowledge of a system being faulty.  It is the law of negligence, not recklessness that governs.  A duty is owed not to run into someone else.  When that duty is violated, liability attaches.

[9Mary7]

1 hour ago, RandyShields said:

regardless of the AI

Agreed. That is what I said. The human driver is responsible....period.

A reckless driving charge could also attach if the driver had knowledge of the system faults and relied solely on it regardless.

[Skywagon]

I don't own a Tesla, but my car has some features that can get you in trouble.  It's not that sophisticated.  It has cruise of course, it has auto braking and warning, it has HUD which warns you unless you are wearing polarized lenses then you can't see it, and it has what I think is called lane assist.  When the lane assist is on, it will stay in the lane with your hands off provided it sees lines.  If it doesn't see lines it will drive your arse right into a pasture or a bridge.  No radar.

 

A funny story.  Right after I got it I had the lane assist turned on.  I came to a construction zone on the freeway where stripes were going straight, off to the shoulder, some 90 degrees to me, etc....stripes everywhere.  Steering wheel went nuts and had I not be paying attention, no telling how big the crash would have been.  I keep it turned off 99% of the time unless I am on a long straight road.

[Hosstage]

I keep lane assist and other nannies turned off 100% of the time, except traction control. I don't even use the adaptive cruise control.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

A big part of Tesla's problem (though certainly not the entire problem) is that they are trying very hard to make their self-driving system work using cameras instead of lidar.  Cameras are cheaper, but it means the computer has to "understand" what it's seeing in order to respond correctly, and Tesla owners have posted plenty of instances where it has failed to live up to expectations.  

 

Lidar, OTOH, actually provides unambiguous measurements of distances to objects in the field of view.  A car using lidar may or may not understand that there's a motorcyclist in its way, but it will definitely know there is something in the way that it must avoid.  With Lidar, the rear-ending of the fire truck that @BrianT showed would not have happened:

 

 

Even when the visual field seems pretty clear to a human driver, Tesla FSD often behaves in inexplicable ways (PG-13 for profanity):

 

 

 

Go to YouTube and search for Tesla FSD fails, and you'll find plenty.  Tesla keeps trying to improve their FSD software based on its past failures, but from what I understand, they've gotten to a point where they're kind of chasing their tail: the tweaks they make that improve outcomes in certain problematic situations end up worsening outcomes in other situations.  

[DaveTheAffable]

I don’t think autonomous driving is “here yet“. For two reasons. One, we can’t always trust the AI decisions. Two, we can’t trust the drivers to be responsible with the technology they have been provided.

 

Years ago when I pulled people over for driving around with their headlights off they would frequently say, “I know it’s dark out,  but the automatic headlight  system didn’t turn my headlights on!“. I don’t think anyone is suggesting auto headlights are “bad”.

 

Driver is responsible for the condition and operation of their vehicle.

 

Affably…

[roadscholar]

Think I posted this a few years ago so it's been awhile but relevant here, some history from the 90's.

 

Also in 1995, Dickmanns' re-engineered autonomous S-Class Mercedes-Benz undertook a 990 miles (1,590 km) journey from Munich in Bavaria, Germany to Copenhagen, Denmark and back, using saccadic computer vision and transputers to react in real time. The robot achieved speeds exceeding 109 miles per hour (175 km/h) on the German Autobahn, with a mean time between human interventions of 5.6 miles (9.0 km), or 95% autonomous driving. It drove in traffic, executing manoeuvres to pass other cars. Despite being a research system without emphasis on long distance reliability, it drove up to 98 miles (158 km) without human intervention.

 

There are 6 levels for autonomous driving cars, currently MB is the only manufacturer certified by SAE to have level 3 (some human intervention) on public roads (and only in Germany). Level 4 and 5 are w/o human intervention. 

 

Edit,  concept car from 2015.

 

 

 

 

 

[Hosstage]

The only way autonomous driving becomes close to being possible is when ALL vehicles are on the same system, no human interaction needed, or maybe not even allowed.

Even then, pedestrians beware.

[9Mary7]

12 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Even then, pedestrians beware.

Yup!

[roadscholar]

[Rougarou]

I wonder if Honda will push their Level 3's into full production.  While a limited lease car, would it be the pricing that's keeping them from going full on?  And they, like MB, only have it for the "home country".

 

How soon will the George Jetson be flying by,....after all, he was just born this summer and his mode of transport looks to be Level 3.

[Skywagon]

The Trucker video above from roadscholar was really fun to watch...not for the technology, but to hear the guy in the Steelers jacket who loves his work and knows he is making a contribution to society.  Imagine if all workers had his viewpoint.

[wbw6cos]

My take on self-driving trucks is there are a LOT more variables to deal with that cannot be predicted.   Interesting technology, though.

 

From the video, I saw a left turn on level grading with a good view (and I mean good) of the road both ways.   I have been in situations where pulling out in traffic like that is really tough due to the bends in the road, foliage limiting sight distance and traffic whizzing by like there is no tomorrow.   The fact that you have at least 65' of vehicle that needs to clear traffic means gaps have to be available.   I realize that the lidar units are at the very front of the truck, which gives a better perspective than the driver's view 6-7' behind that.  Still, timing the gaps in traffic will be an issue.

 

Another issue I have with that vehicle is the right hand turn that it made from the center lane.   Negative, Ghost Rider!   That is a little on the dangerous side.   A button-hook  turn is recommended to keep motorists from shooting that gap.  I realize it needs to take all the room possible so as not to track the trailer up on curb, light pole, pedestrian, and such as the like, but to allow enough space for another tractor trailer to fit there is just dumb.  I suppose they factored in a lot of data to configure the manuvering, but I wonder how well it can manuver through that truck stop at night, when it is so crowded trucks just park where ever they can, even in the way.

 

When I started my career in the trucking business back in the 90's, they had fuel attendants at the truck stops.  Well, they ain't there no more.   Who gonna fuel the tanks?  What about DEF?

 

The last time I checked, trucks have self-adjusting brakes, not self-checking.   Who gonna do a thorough Pre-trip Inspection, Inter-trip Inspection, and finally a Post-trip Inspection on that self-driving vehicle?  Even new equipment can have safety issues.

 

The trucker was on camera.  In the presence of people touting technology that should have a positive impact on the industry he is trying to market to.  Do you think that trucker will remain in the video if he spoke on how he really felt?  Notice the pause.  He allowed his brain to engage before his mouth.  He has true feelings for his profession, to be sure, but I suspect he held back on trashing the idea of a self-driving truck. 

 

My $.02 (which is actually worth $37.50.)

[Hosstage]

Once all vehicles are connected, that truck won't have to see around the corner, it will know exactly where all the cars are, the cars will know the truck is turning and act accordingly before they even get to the corner.

To have totally hands free driving, all vehicles will need to be on the grid, and no vehicles actually being driven by humans.

Even then, that doesn't take into account pedestrians and their unpredictability.

[9Mary7]

12 hours ago, Hosstage said:

all vehicles are connected

Not in my lifetime.......