Upgrade from Wethead to Shiftcam?

[Tpoppa]

I really like my R1200R LC.   It does everything I've asked of it very well.  Lately I've been thinking about a R1250R

 

Is it worth upgrading from the R1200R to a R1250R?  Are the new engine/electronics on the 1250 a significant improvement? 

 

Is there any reason not to get a 1250?  Are they more maintenance intensive?

 

 

[Cap]

I have one of each.  Both are RT’s.  I am ambivalent about the 1250 engine.  On the one hand, it is superior for long-distance high-speed cruising on the interstate.  And it gets significantly better fuel economy for me, averaging about 48 mpg compared to about 45 on the 1200.

 

But when I am riding in the twisties, I prefer the 1200.  The 1200 has more linear power delivery.  And at higher RPMs, it has about the same power as the 1250.  So, in my experience, the 1200 is more enjoyable when riding briskly on curvy roads where I am operating between 4000 rpm and 7000 rpm.

 

With the 1250 in that same RPM range, it constantly flips on and off the low speed cam.  I find this annoying. There is a flat spot in the power curve just after it switches to the high speed cam, and then the power comes on again as you increase RPMs.  So, as I accelerate out of a curve, I get a lag, then a surge.  I could go down a gear to keep it on the high-speed cam, but then I would be operating at, say, 6000-9000 RPM for extended periods, and this feels like too many revs, and it makes the throttle very sensitive as you back off slightly.

 

So, good news, bad news.

 

Cap

[Tpoppa]

That is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for.  Most of my riding is on twisty back roads, and my 1200 does really well carving corners using midrange power.

[Twisties]

1 hour ago, Cap said:

With the 1250 in that same RPM range, it constantly flips on and off the low speed cam.  I find this annoying. There is a flat spot in the power curve just after it switches to the high speed cam, and then the power comes on again as you increase RPMs.  So, as I accelerate out of a curve, I get a lag, then a surge

 

I see none of this on mine or my wife's.  In fact, I have never been able to detect the cam shifting.

 

Regarding the original question, I would suggest getting a test ride on one.  Then let us know what you think.  I never had a 1200 LC, but loved riding one once several years ago.  On paper at least, the additional torque on the 1250 seems significant.  IDK about improvements in the electronics since I never had the 1200, but I can say from my 2020 to wife's 2021 they did get rid of the stupid plug for the riding modes.  So, if I want to ride in Dynamic Pro on the street and then switch to Enduro for a dirt stretch or some road construction I have to stop, remove the seat, and install or remove the plug.  Wife has all modes available from the handlebar at all time.  Plus new Eco mode.  

 

I do feel the riding modes work well, but again, can not compare to 1200 LCs.

[Tpoppa]

14 hours ago, Cap said:

With the 1250 in that same RPM range, it constantly flips on and off the low speed cam.  I find this annoying. There is a flat spot in the power curve just after it switches to the high speed cam, and then the power comes on again as you increase RPMs.  So, as I accelerate out of a curve, I get a lag, then a surge.  I could go down a gear to keep it on the high-speed cam, but then I would be operating at, say, 6000-9000 RPM for extended periods, and this feels like too many revs, and it makes the throttle very sensitive as you back off slightly.

 

Do you experience this in all ride modes?

It sounds like a similar sensation to VTEC on the VFR800.

 

12 hours ago, Twisties said:

 

I see none of this on mine or my wife's.  In fact, I have never been able to detect the cam shifting.

Interesting that your experience is different.  I wonder why.

[Cap]

Hard to guess why two riders have different experiences with the same engine.  But I am talking specifically about an RT operating on a curvy mountain road with a speed limit of 25 mph to 35 mph, and on which I might be running quite a bit faster.  My point is that I would be transitioning rapidly between hard deceleration and acceleration in that RPM range that spans the low-speed and high-speed cams.  My experience might not translate to a GS rider in other conditions.  Indeed, I concur that the 1250 engine has a lot more low RPM torque than the 1200.  If you remove the valve covers and look at the cam profiles, you can see why — the low speed cam has much lower lift and a different timing and overlap.  For the large majority of my riding miles, the 1250 is superior for low speed tractability and fuel economy. But for me, the primary reason I have a motorcycle is that I enjoy those shorter periods when I can let it rip on mountain roads with no traffic.  So, as I said, it’s good news and bad news.

 

cap

[Tpoppa]

4 hours ago, Cap said:

But for me, the primary reason I have a motorcycle is that I enjoy those shorter periods when I can let it rip on mountain roads with no traffic. 

Same.  My R is for twisty back roads, or road trips to take me to more twisty back roads.  I have another less-fun motorcycle for other purposes.

 

Appreciate the insight.

[MR THUMPER]

I have a 2015 R 1200 RTWC and a 2018 R 1200 GSWC a friend who I ride regularly with has a 2019 R1250 RTWC, I have ridden it a number of times back to back with my 1200WC. The R1250 is a great bike but I would never even consider changing either of my bikes for a 1250. The 1200 and the 1250 are almost identical to ride the extra power and torque is minimum. Save your money for the next major upgrade, BMW seem to do a completely new bike about every 10 years. It shouldn't be long now. The previous models to the 1200WC (1200 single cam and 1200 twin cam) were a completely different and inferior bikes. I owned one of each. The 1200WC when it first arrived was so much better than the 1200 Twin Cam, I sold a low milage bike took a big hit to buy a WC. Love the WC bikes so much I bought a GS as well.

[Cap]

There is one more reason to choose a 2019 or 2020 model R1250 RT.  They are the last models having a detachable Nav6 instead of a TFT.  I have been down the road of proprietary non-upgradeable technology that is embedded into a car or bike.  I never enjoyed those experiences.  That's why I bought the 2019 RT:  because at the time I could buy it significantly cheaper than new, with really low miles, and more than a year of remaining warranty.   And I am not beholden to BMW to keep my GPS doing what I want.  This particular issue will probably go away when BMW starts offering Apple Carplay and Android Auto on their motos.  I see that Honda already offers Carplay on the Africa Twin.

[Scott9999]

3 hours ago, MR THUMPER said:

I have a 2015 R 1200 RTWC and a 2018 R 1200 GSWC a friend who I ride regularly with has a 2019 R1250 RTWC, I have ridden it a number of times back to back with my 1200WC. The R1250 is a great bike but I would never even consider changing either of my bikes for a 1250. The 1200 and the 1250 are almost identical to ride the extra power and torque is minimum. Save your money for the next major upgrade, BMW seem to do a completely new bike about every 10 years. It shouldn't be long now. The previous models to the 1200WC (1200 single cam and 1200 twin cam) were a completely different and inferior bikes. I owned one of each. The 1200WC when it first arrived was so much better than the 1200 Twin Cam, I sold a low milage bike took a big hit to buy a WC. Love the WC bikes so much I bought a GS as well.

Yep, and enjoy your new, all-electric BMW R1300RT.  😖

 

(That, or seeing that Beemers are designed and made in Germany, maybe it'll be coal fired.)

[Dave_in_TX]

On 8/22/2022 at 5:09 PM, Cap said:

I have one of each.  Both are RT’s.  I am ambivalent about the 1250 engine.  On the one hand, it is superior for long-distance high-speed cruising on the interstate.  And it gets significantly better fuel economy for me, averaging about 48 mpg compared to about 45 on the 1200.

 

But when I am riding in the twisties, I prefer the 1200.  The 1200 has more linear power delivery.  And at higher RPMs, it has about the same power as the 1250.  So, in my experience, the 1200 is more enjoyable when riding briskly on curvy roads where I am operating between 4000 rpm and 7000 rpm.

 

With the 1250 in that same RPM range, it constantly flips on and off the low speed cam.  I find this annoying. There is a flat spot in the power curve just after it switches to the high speed cam, and then the power comes on again as you increase RPMs.  So, as I accelerate out of a curve, I get a lag, then a surge.  I could go down a gear to keep it on the high-speed cam, but then I would be operating at, say, 6000-9000 RPM for extended periods, and this feels like too many revs, and it makes the throttle very sensitive as you back off slightly.

 

So, good news, bad news.

 

Cap

I have a R1250GS with 88k miles. Before that, I had an 2014 R 1200GS that I put 125k on. I'm unable to tell when it switches between the low and high speed cams. I prefer the 1250 but wouldn't get rid of a low miles 1200 in good condition just to get the 1250. 

[Limecreek]

The 1250 accelerates much faster than the 1200. That was the first thing I noticed passing cars on the way home from picking it up. Enough to upgrade?  No. 
 

And like Dave, I don’t notice or can tell when the cam shifts to the higher  lift. 

[Veefore]

I have a 15’ 1200RT, do a lot of riding solo sometimes spirited and some with my wife.  I’ve never found myself wanting for more power on the 1200.  We took a trip out to Colorado last summer and rented a 1250RT.  Did Colorado, Wyoming and South Dakota.  Highway, secondaries, canyons, the Black Hills……a real variety of riding conditions over 1400 miles and the couple we were with were on a 16’ 1200RT.  Great bike but I honestly didn’t notice an appreciable difference to the 1200.  The suspension took a bit to get used to but I can see it as an improvement. 
All in all happy to keep my 1200.

 

[JamesW]

Hmmmm...I think I'll keep my like new R1100RSL.   Think of the money I'll save.

[Quasimoto]

Like Veefore, I too didn't notice much difference between the two engines when I took my 1250RS out for a test ride from the dealership. Then I put it in Dynamic ride mode and found myself wearing a rather large SEG (sh*t eatin' grin)!

[Bob H.]

On 8/22/2022 at 1:01 PM, Tpoppa said:

I really like my R1200R LC.   It does everything I've asked of it very well.  Lately I've been thinking about a R1250R

 

Is it worth upgrading from the R1200R to a R1250R?  Are the new engine/electronics on the 1250 a significant improvement? 

 

Is there any reason not to get a 1250?  Are they more maintenance intensive?

 

 

 

I went from a 2018RT ( 125 hp ) to my current   2021RT ( 136 hp) because my 18RT had over 111K miles on it and it was time to trade it in. I definitely like the difference between the two , my 21RT currently has 44K+ miles on it and it is definitely an enjoyable ride , whether in the twisties or running the interstate. Should you go to a 1250 ? If you are ready to trade up I'd have to say go for it ! Enjoy the ride.

[Audi403]

I've never owned a 1200RT but I love the 1250RT. I've never had any issues with the cam shifting. I ride twisty mountain roads as well, sometimes fairly aggressively. Maybe if I had rode the 1200 before, I would have noticed. It does not bother me or effect my riding in any way.

 

The reasons I went with a 2019 RT instead of the new ones:

- Prefer the look of the front end on the pre 2021s

- Highly prefer the standalone Garmin Navigation over having to use my phone for GPS with the TFT. There are lots of people complaining about connectivity issues.

- Cost

 

[Rinkydink]

I notice the shift cam on my ‘22 RT but it’s more of an auditory thing (Akrapovic slip on) than a power curve flat spot. It, I would call it a burp at about 4-4.2k rpm. Don’t even notice it anymore. I don’t feel the 1250 is that much better than the 1200 but she definitely hauls the mail!!

[Audi403]

5 hours ago, Rinkydink said:

I notice the shift cam on my ‘22 RT but it’s more of an auditory thing (Akrapovic slip on) than a power curve flat spot. It, I would call it a burp at about 4-4.2k rpm. Don’t even notice it anymore. I don’t feel the 1250 is that much better than the 1200 but she definitely hauls the mail!!

Yep, I can hear mine as well

[Tpoppa]

I decided to keep my 2015 R1200R.  I does everything so well that I just can't part with it.

 

 

 

[DBULL]

I had a 2010 RT and really liked it.  In fact, did a very complete service to be ready to ride this spring.  THEN, I saw a 2019 1250RT decked out perfectly and realized I needed it.  PO was very careful and has virtually every Illium works option, Clearwater lights, etc etc.     And with only 11K miles (and 12K service by Brad), it was a no brainer.  I do notice a big difference in the 1200 and 1250.  I like hearing the 'pop' of the cam kicking in.  And with the Akropovic exhaust, it's an added bonus.  From September 11-early December  I rode nearly 8000 miles, and can't wait to get on it (headed to Hill Country in TX during March), and then some long trips (Including Ellijay in April).    I know that I jumped two generations from 2010 to 2019, and am very happy.  

 

 

[Tpoppa]

20 hours ago, DBULL said:

I do notice a big difference in the 1200 and 1250.  

 

From a pre-LC 1200 to a 1250...yes, I expect you would.

[Motorhead1977]

A little late to this thread. The comparison of the 1250 engine to the VFR800 VTEC is way off. Having owned both when the VTEC engaged it was like a swift kick in the ass. Enough to slightly lift the front wheel. The shift cam, other than an auditory difference, is seamless.  If I compare the 1250 to my 1200RT the performance is much improved. Is it, combined with the electronic upgrades enough to make a change? For me, yes, but as with all these things, YMMV.  Biggest drawback to the 1250 is that BMW have stopped selling the shop/service manual.

[duckbubbles]

I just traded my '17 R1200RS for a '23 R1250RS (It's a long story).  I can say that the 1250 is a substantial upgrade from the 1200.  Is it worth the extra cost?  Probably no, but that depends on the individual.

 

Frank

[alexp]

Absolutely!

[JCtx]

On 8/23/2022 at 12:19 PM, Tpoppa said:

My R is for twisty back roads, or road trips to take me to more twisty back roads. 

 

Hey, happy to see somebody else who rides for the same reasons as me. I was at the dragon last year, but since it's 2K miles away from me, I borrowed my cousin's modified SV650, so I could fly in (rather than hauling my bike 2K miles each way alone). Still had a ton of fun on that little sucker. Also got a pic (below), and seems like the same corner. Ha ha. But definitely missed my R a lot.

Now to your question. I had a 2014 R1200RT, and after an MT-10, now a 2020 R1250R, and to me, the 1250 was like night and day difference over the 1200. I almost didn't want another boxer, because the 1200 wasn't smooth until well above 3K rpm. The 1250 is butter smooth by comparison (and smoother than my ex-K1300S by far), even at 2K. Plus it has more TQ than the numbers suggest, and sounds a lot better too, especially with the Akra (and exhaust valve removed -which is just for noise, and chokes the bike on cold starts). Maybe not worth trading for a new one, but if you could find a pristine 2020, you'd save thousands. Looks like we ride similarly, and I can tell you the shift-cam is seamless. However, I typically don't ride the twisties hard, like on a track; more like at 'the pace', meaning not rocketing from corner to corner, to also enjoy the scenery. Anyway, you should ride one if you have a chance. Mine is a fully-loaded HP, and looks like yours is fully-loaded too, so not sure what changed from the 1200 to 1250 other than the engine. The only thing I did to increase cornering clearance without dragging was to buy a shorter OEM center-stand rubber stop, and replace the long peg feelers with acorn nuts (pic below), so now I can do like 50-deg without dragging, and before it dragged at 47. And yes, the acorn nuts drag before any hard parts (the MAM X-Head covers, in my case), which is what I wanted. The front forks are a bit on the soft side, even for my 162# (sans gear), and not adjustable for preload (unfortunately), but it's not bad, so won't mess with them. I started using the rear in 'max' preload (and 'dynamic' mode) at the '3 sisters' (TX Hill Country), just a couple of weeks ago, and it was a bit stiffer than I wanted, but bike felt incredibly stable and responsive in the twisties, including the high-speed sweepers on hwy 55. Best bike I've owned, and I've owned quite a few. It'd be my pleasure to ride with you some day. Most BMW sport-touring riders I've seen ride more sedately than us, so the only rally I attended a while back wasn't fun for me. Maybe there are more riders like us here. Ha ha. Hope this helps. Take care.

 

[9Mary7]

6 hours ago, ELP said:

there are more riders like us here

True statement.

Welcome to the forum.

[MikeB60]

6 hours ago, ELP said:

Most BMW sport-touring riders I've seen ride more sedately than us, so the only rally I attended a while back wasn't fun for me. Maybe there are more riders like us here.

You have found the right spot. 

[JCtx]

Awesome. Thank you guys. I'm kind of old at 61, but look and feel younger than that... and still like to have fun, and keep myself in shape to be able to do that as long as possible. And do it in a safe manner. I don't touch my bike except for trips to the twisties, which are not that many per year... but always looking forward to them. Will check out your rallies, and try to make it to one. By the way, I live in El Paso, TX, in the middle of nowhere, basically. Glad to have found this place.

Hey, check out the pavement at the '3 sisters' below. It destroyed my tires, but thankfully not my skin. Ha ha.

 

 

[Skywagon]

Welcome… at 61 you are one of the youngest on this site😀

[JCtx]

Nice to know there's nothing wrong with me then. Have an awesome weekend, gang.

[Hosstage]

11 hours ago, ELP said:

Hey, check out the pavement at the '3 sisters' below. It destroyed my tires, but thankfully not my skin. Ha ha.

 

 

That pavement looks abrasive as hell!

[JCtx]

Yeah, ask my tires, especially the front. Ha ha. The front is close to the wear bars on the sides, but the rear still looks fine. Both look pitted on the sides, as you can see below, but the front more, for obvious reasons. The tires didn't show any wear at 1,900 miles; now they have 2,600, so put around 700 miles at the THC. They still look great in the middle, but not sure if there would be any diminished grip on the sides, due to the pitting. What do you guys think? I was thinking of using them for at least one more trip, and see how they look afterwards. What is clear is they won't even last 5K miles, but I'm hoping at least 3,500. They might even out on smoother asphalt, but we'll see. They're sport-touring Metzeler Roadtec Z8s. Talking about tires, I'm thinking either Michelin Road 6s or Dunlop RoadSmart 4s next, based on my research, but Metzeler Roadtec 01 SE was very close to those, so open to that one too. All comments welcome on those (and others). My main priority is dry grip in the corners, but tire life is a close 2nd, since it's always risky to replace tires (rims can get scuffed, sensors damaged, etc). In other words, if 2 tires have the same grip, and 1 is more expensive but lasts longer, I'd go with that one. I think any sport-touring tire is going to have good wet performance, so not worried about that, especially since I rarely ride in the rain. Thank you guys.

 

By the way, checked the 'unrally' in Colorado, and have never seen anything like that. Rallies are always on weekends (tons of traffic, cops, etc), charge hefty fees, etc. And on yours there are no fees, and it's on weekdays, which is what I always do when riding (never ride on weekends). AWESOME!!! I just didn't like the timing, since you can have nasty storms at any time (monsoon season), but will try to make it. August would have been perfect; oh well.

[9Mary7]

My experience with the Z8 is that the edges will smooth out with a few miles on non-abrasive pavement.

As far as replacements go, I'm a Metzeler/Pirelli fan so that's what I would do.

I won't use Michelin M/C tires at all.

I hear the RoadSmart IV wear well with acceptable grip but I haven't tried them. I don't buy M/C tires for mileage, grip and handling feel is my primary concern..

[JCtx]

Thank you for your input, and glad to hear I might be able to get more mileage out of those tires. Forgot to add the Metzeler Roadtec 01 SE (just edited my post), which is a sportier version of the Roadtec 01 (or maybe it superseded it?), and very highly regarded as well. I assume that's probably the one you'd go with, no?   And yes, I also want good handling, of course, but that's a bit subjective IMO. I enjoy the handling of 'triangular' profile tires more, like the Michelin Roads. But coming from folks who actually use their bikes for sport-touring, I'll value your opinions much more than on any other site. I'm not really a Michelin guy at all, and would like to buy something else, to be honest... BUT, since the Road models are at the top of the sport-touring spectrum in every category, have the profile I like, and good longevity, I don't want to make a mistake. But I have to say these Z8s feel as good as the last Michelin Road5s I had on the MT-10, so pleasantly surprised. And I assume the 01 SEs should be just as good, if not better... but just don't know about their longevity. Need to check pricing too. If cheaper than the Road6s, then that's an incentive to try them. Ha ha. Keep the comments coming.

[MikeB60]

On 6/3/2023 at 3:11 PM, 9Mary7 said:

As far as replacements go, I'm a Metzeler/Pirelli fan so that's what I would do.

I was always a Metzler and Pirelli fan. Since they built the Chinese plant I've had two junk fronts, one Roadtech 1 and a Scorpion Trail II both made in China.  Revzilla refunded the cost of both, no more for me!

[JCtx]

You have a great point there, which brings me to a question: Is there a way to know where a particular model is made? Tire manufacturers typically have several plants in different countries, so I imagine it'd be very hard to know, but let's see what the experts say. I guess current owners of Roadtec 01 SE, Pilot Road 6s, and Roadsmart 4s, could check where those tires were built, and post here. I much prefer not to buy stuff made in China too, but seems like almost everything is made there nowadays.

[9Mary7]

Michelin has two M/C tire plants in China....... just about everybody does. FWIW I've not found any difference between the German Metzeler and the China ones.

[JCtx]

Just priced several different 120/70/17 & 180/55/17 tires at Revzilla, for comparison purposes, and prices went thru the freaking roof. Last set of Road5 I bought were like $250 delivered. Curious which set you guys think it's the best value for the money. I assume all of the premium sets listed below provide all the dry grip we need at full lean angle, since the Z8s did, and they're not the latest model. I assume Pirellis and Dunlops should be very comparable, right? I only included what I consider the top-rated models, since I like to push the bike in the twisties, so I never skimp on tires. Here they are:

 

Michelins: Road 6s $474.42, and Road 5s $401.08

Dunlops: RoadSmart 4s $447.84, and RoadSmart 3s $250.78

Metzelers: Roadtec 01 SEs $393.63, Roadtec 01s $$336.39, and Roadtec Z8 Ms $368.01, which is what I have now. Doesn't make sense they're more expensive than the 01s, no? But maybe the SEs are the comparable ones to the Ms.

Pirellis: Angel GT2s $381.42, and Angel GTs $338.54

 

The RoadSmart 3s are way cheaper than anything else, but wonder if they might be too old, and also if comparable to Road 5s and Z8 Ms in dry grip. The next cheapest set is the Angel GT. As I mentioned above, I never skimp on tires, but I don't like overpaying either, and I feel like I'd be overpaying for the Road 6s. Maybe the next last model is all I need... as long as it's relatively fresh. All comments welcome. Thank you.

 

 

[MikeB60]

Roadsmart 3s are an excellent tire. Grip is excellent and I get about 5000 miles on my tire eating K1600. The Roadsmart 4 seems to last a bit longer based on reviews from other riders. I'll keep using them based on the price.