2015 R1200GS Surging / Rough Running

[F16Viper68]

For a while now I've noticed the engine performance of my 2015 R1200GS with ~24k miles on it has been a bit off. It seems to hesitate when accelerating, idles rougher than normal, and doesn't seem to accelerate like it used to. I just performed the 24k mile service and thought it might help but there's been no change. I checked the valves (all in spec, were in spec at 12k), changed plugs (both side are firing and looked good), oil/filter, final drive, brake flush, new pads front/rear, battery load test (good), etc.

 

A newer symptom I've also noticed this thing just take off, RPM wise, when you give a tiny bit of throttle which is making in very difficult to ride. Video of this issue below.

Any ideas where to look? I do have a GS911.

 

I have a better than average mechanical ability (ex auto mechanic and F-16 avionics technician, and 20 years in IT so electronics don't scare me).

 

 

 

Any suggestions from the collective would be appreciated. 

 

Dave...

[Geekmaster]

Dave, from the videos it sounds like it's running on only 1 cylinder at the lower revs.  Then the 2nd cylinder kicks in later.  That explains lack of power and surging when you ride.  Now to determine which cylinder is misfiring and why.  I'm not familiar with GS911, but is there some monitoring you could hook up?  I confess, I'm not a BMW boxer expert yet, but the 3 basics still apply (fuel, air, spark).  If you can confirm that spark is working all the time, and that it's strong, then there's one possibility removed.  Next check the air ... is your air filter in good shape?  What happens if you remove it?  Then check the fuel delivery.

 

I'm sure others will chime in with possible troubleshooting steps as well.

[F16Viper68]

I was thinking the same thing (single cylinder) but I have to imagine this thing is going to run rougher than that on one cylinder.  It almost feels like fueling.  I do know a few times I've rev'ed it up and it stalled when it returned to idle.  I'll play around with the GS911 and see what type of real time monitoring it offers.  It could be a bad ignition coil.  

 

The air filter was fine but I changed it anyways.  

[Bernie]

With the GS-911WIFI you can monitor the cylinder temperature. Watch it with a cold motor and see if both cylinders heat up equally on idle. 
You could also disconnect one stick coil and see if it starts. Then compare the noise. Then try the other side. Maybe one of the stick coil plug is damaged or not connected all the way. You could also delete and reset the adaption values and relearn the throttle position sensor. 

[F16Viper68]

7 minutes ago, Bernie said:

With the GS-911WIFI you can monitor the cylinder temperature. Watch it with a cold motor and see if both cylinders heat up equally on idle. 
You could also disconnect one stick coil and see if it starts. Then compare the noise. Then try the other side. Maybe one of the stick coil plug is damaged or not connected all the way. You could also delete and reset the adaption values and relearn the throttle position sensor. 

@Bernie I'll give this a whirl tomorrow but I'll have to further research the last part about resetting the adaption valves.  

 

Dave.

[F16Viper68]

One symptom I forgot to mention is I'm hearing a clicking I don't ever remember hearing before.  I can't really tell where it's coming from.  

[Bernie]

Are you hearing the clicking when the motor is cold?  Check your spark plugs. Maybe they are loose? Also with the GS-911WIFI you can test the muffler flap. I would pull the canister and visually verify if it opens and closes when the test is activated with the GS-911WIFI. To reset the adaption values forces the computer to relearn all parameters and possible fixes any software issues, similar to Crtl-Slt-Delete on your win computer. 

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, Bernie said:

With the GS-911WIFI you can monitor the cylinder temperature. Watch it with a cold motor and see if both cylinders heat up equally on idle. 
You could also disconnect one stick coil and see if it starts. Then compare the noise. Then try the other side. Maybe one of the stick coil plug is damaged or not connected all the way. You could also delete and reset the adaption values and relearn the throttle position sensor. 

Mornings Bernie

 

On the early BMW 1200 engines that would work,  on the later 1200 engine's BMW went to as single cylinder head temp sensor then shared that one temp output across both channels so they will always show fairly even. 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Quote

 

For a while now I've noticed the engine performance of my 2015 R1200GS with ~24k miles on it has been a bit off. It seems to hesitate when accelerating, idles rougher than normal, and doesn't seem to accelerate like it used to. I just performed the 24k mile service and thought it might help but there's been no change. I checked the valves (all in spec, were in spec at 12k), changed plugs (both side are firing and looked good), oil/filter, final drive, brake flush, new pads front/rear, battery load test (good), etc.

 

A newer symptom I've also noticed this thing just take off, RPM wise, when you give a tiny bit of throttle which is making in very difficult to ride. Video of this issue below.

Any ideas where to look? I do have a GS911.

 

I have a better than average mechanical ability (ex auto mechanic and F-16 avionics technician, and 20 years in IT so electronics don't scare me).

 

Morning Dave

 

That does sort of sound like it is running on one cylinder at idle & just above idle but seems to clear up at higher RPM's.

 

Pretty difficult to diagnose from just an engine  sound over the internet.   

 

Might be a stick coil issue (but those usually don't clear up as the RPM increases).

 

Probably also wouldn't hurt to check your cam timing. 

 

Probably the best approach (seeing as you are electronic & aviation fluent) is to set your GS-911 up to trap all the engine data, then warm the engine enough to get the problem to show up, then trap a couple of engine runs (like you posted above), then export those files to a .CSV  Excel file,  then send them to me via the message option on this web site. 

 

The newer WiFi GS-911's have a LOT of internal storage so you can trap & hold the data right inside the GS-911 then dump it out to your computer after the data is taken remotely (even while riding). 

 

I will look at the data then see if I can find you a smoking gun. 

 

Do a couple of individual data traps (not one large .CSV_ file)  as very large .CSV files make data break-out more difficult.  

[F16Viper68]

Thank you very much for the offer to assist me with my troubleshooting.  I'll get the traps done after work today. The more I think about this, the more I feel the situation has gotten worse since I performed the 24k service which is a bit baffling since I didn't adjust the valves (in spec) and only swapped out the plugs.  One thing I think might be an issue is per the DVD, I applied a bit of anti-seize to the tip of the coil.  Maybe I used too much and it's affecting the coils ability to electrically reach the plug.  

 

I'll do the traps and then maybe pull the coils and plugs to ensure I didn't over do it.  

 

Dave...

[LAF]

I just fixed a 18 GS with this issue.

 

On the right cylinder on top, behind the injector, is a vacuum port.  It should be on and a hose running up under the Tupperware.

 

On his 18 GS it looked like it was on but was in front of the port.

 

His issue was bad idle, surging idle up to 4K while running.

 

I was about to give up and decided to do a "touch the bike all over" inspection instead of the 10 visuals I had already done, and found it in 1 min.  Put it back on and perfect.

 

May not be your issue but it was a easy but time consuming fix for me.

 

And his bike just came back from the 36K service at his dealer when all this started.

[F16Viper68]

Thanks for the suggestion but the hose is connected and looks to be in good shape.  Setting up my GS911 to work with a PC.  Never needed the advanced functions before so I've only used my phone.  I'm sure I can do it all with my phone but a PC will make it a lot easier IMHO.  

 

 

[F16Viper68]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Mornings Bernie

 

On the early BMW 1200 engines that would work,  on the later 1200 engine's BMW went to as single cylinder head temp sensor then shared that one temp output across both channels so they will always show fairly even. 

 

 

Wondering if I can use a IR temp gun to measure the temps of the exhaust headers?  I honestly feel like both cylinders are firing but I guess another option would be to disconnect the coils one at a time and see how it reacts.  

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, F16Viper68 said:

Thank you very much for the offer to assist me with my troubleshooting.  I'll get the traps done after work today. The more I think about this, the more I feel the situation has gotten worse since I performed the 24k service which is a bit baffling since I didn't adjust the valves (in spec) and only swapped out the plugs.  One thing I think might be an issue is per the DVD, I applied a bit of anti-seize to the tip of the coil.  Maybe I used too much and it's affecting the coils ability to electrically reach the plug.  

 

I'll do the traps and then maybe pull the coils and plugs to ensure I didn't over do it.  

 

Dave...

Morning Dave

 

Anti-seize? A lot of Anti-seize contains small metallic particles. Hopefully you are talking about dielectric  spark plug boot  grease?

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, F16Viper68 said:

Wondering if I can use a IR temp gun to measure the temps of the exhaust headers?  I honestly feel like both cylinders are firing but I guess another option would be to disconnect the coils one at a time and see how it reacts.  

Morning Dave

 

You can try it, but just unplug the coil wire connector TO the coil,  do not simply remove the coil & allow it to spark internally as that can ruin a coil.  

 

If you notice a sizable temperature difference between sides then you can try swapping components side to side to see the problem moves with the change.

[F16Viper68]

57 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Dave

 

Anti-seize? A lot of Anti-seize contains small metallic particles. Hopefully you are talking about dielectric  spark plug boot  grease?

I know, I know. I remember sitting there thinking...this can't be right.  I run the test, clean it up, and re-run.  

[F16Viper68]

@dirtrider and @Bernie Well it's only running on one cylinder based on my exhaust header temperature test.  I fired it up and left it idling.  The right side temp starting coming up quickly but the left didn't move.  Eventually after a few minutes the right was at 245 degrees and the left was at 105 degrees.  

 

I did notice there are two faults pointing towards the exhaust flapper so there is an issue there but it's not causing my cylinder issues so I'll work on that first.  

 

Btw, this thing idles amazingly well on a single cylinder!  

 

Dave...

 

[dirtrider]

53 minutes ago, F16Viper68 said:

@dirtrider and @Bernie Well it's only running on one cylinder based on my exhaust header temperature test.  I fired it up and left it idling.  The right side temp starting coming up quickly but the left didn't move.  Eventually after a few minutes the right was at 245 degrees and the left was at 105 degrees.  

 

I did notice there are two faults pointing towards the exhaust flapper so there is an issue there but it's not causing my cylinder issues so I'll work on that first.  

 

Btw, this thing idles amazingly well on a single cylinder!  

 

Dave...

 

Afternoon Dave

 

First thing is to try swapping coils between sides then see which side gets hot. 

[F16Viper68]

11 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Dave

 

First thing is to try swapping coils between sides then see which side gets hot. 

Well I thought first I'd check out the anti-seize situation since it was more than likely the root cause of the issue.  As you can see below, it was covered in anti-seize so I spent a bit time cleaning up both coils and plugs.  The bike started quickly and revs smoothly now.  I still think it's not running 100% but it's much better than it was.  I'd like to check the cam timing but I can't find the tools online. I did buy the DIY tools from @Boxflyer but I never did spend any time with him to figure out how they are used vs. the OEM tools.  Planned on checking that box at FART 2022.    

 

@dirtrider and @Bernie thank you so much for the advice and help.  

 

While I had the bike back on the lift I decided to take a look a the muffler flap for giggles.  It was flagged by ECU codes a few times.  

 

I took off the muffler and verified it was stuck open but the interesting part was the butterfly valve moved a bit.  It was not completely seized. That's when I noticed the plastic cover was all melted, once I removed the cover, with difficulty, the flap operated correctly.  When I powered up the bike the flap opened and closed as it should.  I didn't video it but flap is partially closed at idle and opens when you rev it up.  Now why did this thing melt?  I have no idea.  I'm going to grind away enough to getting it moving again and see if this covered can be ordered.  

p the bike and

 

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

Quote

Well I thought first I'd check out the anti-seize situation since it was more than likely the root cause of the issue.  As you can see below, it was covered in anti-seize so I spent a bit time cleaning up both coils and plugs.  The bike started quickly and revs smoothly now.  I still think it's not running 100% but it's much better than it was.  

 Afternoon Dave

 

That anti-seize will be difficult to get ALL of it removed as that is kind of what makes it  anti-seize.

 

If there is any (even a little) remaining then that could cause the spark to track down the outside of the spark plug porcelain into the spark plug metal base.  

 

That burnt flapper cover looks like it might have been caused by an exhaust leak at the pipe joint. 

[F16Viper68]

32 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

 Afternoon Dave

 

That anti-seize will be difficult to get ALL of it removed as that is kind of what makes it  anti-seize.

 

If there is any (even a little) remaining then that could cause the spark to track down the outside of the spark plug porcelain into the spark plug metal base.  

 

That burnt flapper cover looks like it might have been caused by an exhaust leak at the pipe joint. 

I can see your logic but I spent a while working with q-tips and brake cleaner (just dampen the q-tips) to clean up the anti-seize till they came back clean inside and out.  I'll keep an eye on it and see how it runs.  If I feel like the bike isn't right, I'll see about ordering new ones ($$$).  A

 

I think you're right about the exhaust leak because it's on the side where the coupling is and the slip ring wasn't very tight at all.  I've ordered a new cover and torqued everything to spec.  

[Bernie]

Boxflyer has several videos that explain in detail how to use his tools, verses the factory tools. It’s pretty simple if all you want to do is check the cam timing. 

[LAF]

3 hours ago, F16Viper68 said:

I can see your logic but I spent a while working with q-tips and brake cleaner (just dampen the q-tips) to clean up the anti-seize till they came back clean inside and out.  I'll keep an eye on it and see how it runs.  If I feel like the bike isn't right, I'll see about ordering new ones ($$$).  A

 

I think you're right about the exhaust leak because it's on the side where the coupling is and the slip ring wasn't very tight at all.  I've ordered a new cover and torqued everything to spec.  

Good to see you found the issue.

 

I have used just a tiny bit of dialectic grease on the beginning of the coil, but only enough for a slight sheen. 

 

I have also over the years been convinced there is no need for anti seize on the threads of a spark plug.  Back in the day we did it to all our cars and bikes when changing plugs. 

 

The torque is so light and it has a crush washer on it of sorts so I see no need for anti seize. Plus with a coil design the plugs are somewhat protected, not like back in the day when the plug well was filled with garbage you had to clean before you pulled your plugs.

 

[Hosstage]

I use a bit of anti-sieze to prevent galling between dissimilar metals, steel plugs, aluminum heads.

[F16Viper68]

5 hours ago, Bernie said:

Boxflyer has several videos that explain in detail how to use his tools, verses the factory tools. It’s pretty simple if all you want to do is check the cam timing. 

I found them but didn't realize I needed the alignment tool from BMW.  It's been ordered so I'll check the cam timing next time I have it apart.  

[F16Viper68]

3 hours ago, LAF said:

Good to see you found the issue.

 

I have used just a tiny bit of dialectic grease on the beginning of the coil, but only enough for a slight sheen. 

 

I have also over the years been convinced there is no need for anti seize on the threads of a spark plug.  Back in the day we did it to all our cars and bikes when changing plugs. 

 

The torque is so light and it has a crush washer on it of sorts so I see no need for anti seize. Plus with a coil design the plugs are somewhat protected, not like back in the day when the plug well was filled with garbage you had to clean before you pulled your plugs.

 

Agreed, I stopped putting anti-seize on sparkplug threads a while ago.  I do use it on brake pins and other bits.   I'll tell you one thing, it will never touch my coils again.  :)

[dirtrider]

9 hours ago, F16Viper68 said:

Agreed, I stopped putting anti-seize on sparkplug threads a while ago.  I do use it on brake pins and other bits.   I'll tell you one thing, it will never touch my coils again.  :)

Morning Dave

 

As you found the anti-seize was a bad idea but don't just put those coils back on using nothing. (especially now that you have cleaned the boots with brake clean) 

 

You probably should use a little (correct for application) silicone based spark boot grease.  Over the years I have seen a number of those COP (Coil On Plug) stick coils have the boots stick to the spark plugs if the plugs are not changed often.

 

Once those darn  boots stick tight to the spark plug then the coil boot can tear, or become damaged, at next coil removal causing an expensive coil replacement. 

 

Personally I put a very light coating of silicone spark plug boot grease inside the coil boots at each plug change to prevent the boot from sticking at next removal.  

 

 

[realshelby]

To add to what DR says about silicone dielectric grease...it can also STOP spark from jumping to a ground path (other than the spark plug electrode)  in very high energy spark systems. In addition to keeping the boots lubed!

[Skywagon]

I’m a huge fan of DC 4 die electric. It’s on all my battery terminals and any electrical connection I take lose. I also use it on oil filter threads vs oil which will burn over time. If you use it on oil filter, use very minimal amount as I suspect a blob of that running through the engine would not be good. It’s expensive but I’ve had my tube for almost 20 years. 
 

[F16Viper68]

I'll add some dielectric grease the next time I'm doing maintenance on the bike.  I've taken those damn crash bars off twice this week.  Refuse to do it a third time.  :)  

 

Dave...

[profbodryak]

Joining this later in the discussion, but this happened to me once on a freeway where my RT would not accelerate. When I parked it, it sounded similar when revved up. When I shut it off and started back up the issue was gone. During the diagnostics the only fault code that was showing up was pointing at the flapper valve. Servobuddy completely resolved the issue (sounds like you might want to install it with the bike off as that's when it is fully open). What pointed me to even look into this issue is that for almost a year before that incident on the freeway I was getting an intermittent check engine light right after riding in warmer weather after using the kill switch. Hope this helps.