stripped final drive oil drain plug

[Lemans]

When attempting to remove the final drive oil drain plug in my '18 RT, it wouldn't budge and the head of the plug stripped. I've done this procedure many times on various RTs without a problem. Yes, the plug was torqued correctly when last installed by me. Yes, I am aware that the fill plug takes a hex and the drain plug takes a 40 torx+ (according to Boxflyer) which I used. I know that the plugs have different thread pitches and can easily be confused. Not the case here. Even a T45 is a loose fit now, and will likely hog out the head even more. The plug fits almost flush with the casing, so no chance to use the Dremel groove cut technique. I guess I could try an easyout, but may have to drill the plug a bit to allow more engagement. I ordered a Dimple drain plug on BeemerBoneyard which has a lovely hex fitting that will take a socket as a replacement.  

 

How have others dealt with this problem? Should I heat the plug and case before the next attempt? Anything to try other that an easyout? Would anyone try the Dremel/cold chisel/hammer technique?

 

 

 

[JamesW]

Could you get enough bite on the head with some vice grips and maybe heat the final drive around the plug just a bit?

[Skywagon]

If you can’t get it out with a Torx, there is about 0 chance an easy out won’t break off. DR will have a cure. I suspect it goes something like weld a bolt in, then turn the bolt out. Will follow as real curious if cure

[Mike279]

Pounding in a torx or hex bit that will be a close fit to the buggered hole is a good first option. Using a dremel tool to fine tune the bit or hole might help.  I will sometimes use a small impact driver which may help.  After that I usually just drill into the plug and use care to not damage the original threads.  If you have a drill large enough, the head of the plug will release and the threaded portion should come out easier.  

[dirtrider]

16 hours ago, Lemans said:

When attempting to remove the final drive oil drain plug in my '18 RT, it wouldn't budge and the head of the plug stripped. I've done this procedure many times on various RTs without a problem. Yes, the plug was torqued correctly when last installed by me. Yes, I am aware that the fill plug takes a hex and the drain plug takes a 40 torx+ (according to Boxflyer) which I used. I know that the plugs have different thread pitches and can easily be confused. Not the case here. Even a T45 is a loose fit now, and will likely hog out the head even more. The plug fits almost flush with the casing, so no chance to use the Dremel groove cut technique. I guess I could try an easyout, but may have to drill the plug a bit to allow more engagement. I ordered a Dimple drain plug on BeemerBoneyard which has a lovely hex fitting that will take a socket as a replacement.  

 

How have others dealt with this problem? Should I heat the plug and case before the next attempt? Anything to try other that an easyout? Would anyone try the Dremel/cold chisel/hammer technique?

 

Morning  Lemans

 

I have delt with many/many similar stuck drain plugs in my long life.   The two best things I can tell you is there is no ONE good way, the second thing I can tell you is to NEVER/EVER  try to use an easy out to remove.

 

Lets get the easy-out thing out of the way first: You have a drain plug that won't come loose using a proper fitting large diameter Torx driver. Why would using an easy-out that expands the body to fit even tighter break that stuck plug loose without breaking that hard brittle easy-out off in the stuck plug  first? So once that hardened easy-out breaks off in the plug THEN you REALLY have removal issues. (easy-outs work just great for loose screws, or bolts, that  just have the heads broken off, but don't work worth a darn for things that won't budge due to being too tight for the original driver to remove).  

 

Now on plug removal-- That is difficult to advise over the internet as it might easily start out trying to remove one way then evolve into another (or more) ways once the job starts evolving.  

 

You first need to understand your abilities & tools at hand before even trying. 

 

Thing is: once you start drilling into that plug then you are kind of committed to removing it if you want to ride that motorcycle again. 

 

Definitely try going up one torx size, or try going to a slightly larger SAE torx size then driving that into the existing drain plug (this usually doesn't cause much added harm & just might work).

 

If you can't get it loose with a slightly larger torx bit then you need to make a decision. Do you want to start something that could make it worse or take a commitment that will require a complete follow through until removed?   

 

Or just remove the drive then drain it through the fill or ABS sensor hole?  (plus lube the rear splines) 

 

Another way would be to lightly pressurize the drive through the fill hole then drill a small hole all the way through the plug to drain it (light pressurization should keep most of the drill debris from entering the drive). Then thread that core hole & install a small allen socket bolt as the new plug. Or drill a slightly larger hole part way through  (this would leave a small seat inside the hole then thread that larger hole & install a pipe plug as the new drain plug. 

 

With that drain plug being recessed I'm not sure (without having one in front of me to look at) if it is feasible to weld a short piece of pipe or a slightly cupped washer to the plug then weld a nut to that pipe (or washer). Something that I would personally look at doing if at all possible but no way to know without having the drive accessible & that plug facing a proper direction to weld on. Good part about welding (inside a tube or pipe) is that shields the remainder of the drive from weld  spatter or excessive heat.  The next best part about welding is the welding heat usually breaks the stuck plug free.

 

Another thing I might look at is using an angled punch to drive the plug in the removal direction-- This has worked good for some similar stuck plugs, but again, with the plug being recessed it might be difficult to pull off. Assuming there is enough access, I usually drill a small shallow hole as far out towards the plug outer edge as I can find solid real-estate to drill into, then put an angled punch into that hole then use a hammer to drive the plug in the removal direction. (if you can get a good punch angle & solid lock of the punch to that small hole this usually has a decent chance of working). Sometimes on a real tight bolt or plug it will take a 2nd or 3rd small hole as the first one or two could elongate while driving on the punch. (start with the punch at a 90° angle then start laying it over at an angle once it starts to dig in)

 

Best advice I can give is to not get locked into only one way or method, be flexible, if  one method isn't working then  abort that method & move to another before fully butchering that plug so another method won't work then either.   

 

Added: one more suggestion-- If you have a Dremel & a small high speed burr (and enough time) you can probably grind the torx socket in the plug to properly fit the next size up torx driver  (you would probably need that drain plug  properly facing you to do this)

[longjohn]

14 hours ago, Lemans said:

 Should I heat the plug and case before the next attempt? 

heat the case, then cool the plug

 

 

 

[Randyjaco]

The case will cool faster than the plug. Just the fact that you heated it may help. The differential expansion and contraction may be enough. Just don't over heat the case! 

[Lemans]

Looks like the center of the plug is pretty much destroyed. It is also deeply recessed with little access to the side. Also, there is not much clearance below the bottom of the final drive. A lift would be nice, but none in my garage.

When the replacement plug is available, I'll try to engage the outer rim or edge of the plug with a punch or small chisel and try to loosen the plug with a hammer. This worked for me with a stuck drain plug on a Boxster, but with a 

lot more material and clearance to work with.

 

Thanks to Dirtrider for saving me from an easyout fiasco. I'll report my progress.

[Mellow]

I've had some luck putting some thin material like part of a t-shirt over a bolt before tapping in the screwdriver/bit/whatever  so it has more surface area to bite... If you have crash bars, you could drop the bike on the right side to you have better leverage as well.

[dirtrider]

56 minutes ago, Lemans said:

Looks like the center of the plug is pretty much destroyed. It is also deeply recessed with little access to the side. Also, there is not much clearance below the bottom of the final drive. A lift would be nice, but none in my garage.

When the replacement plug is available, I'll try to engage the outer rim or edge of the plug with a punch or small chisel and try to loosen the plug with a hammer. This worked for me with a stuck drain plug on a Boxster, but with a 

lot more material and clearance to work with.

 

Thanks to Dirtrider for saving me from an easyout fiasco. I'll report my progress.

 

Afternoon Lemans

 

That looks like you have enough plug head showing to drill a small hole then get a punch on it at an angle.  Be sure that you drill it first or your punch will probably slip off of the plug crown & damage the drive housing (probably won't show but not very professional).

 

If you don't get the drive  tipped up or tipped on it's side you will have a difficult time getting a good angle with your hammer & punch.

 

If you have a good spring loaded snap punch those can sometimes do wonders for moving a stuck bolt (or at least start you a nice punch placement indentation)  

 

If it won't move with a punch then try not to damage the plug crown too much as it looks to have just enough plug head standing proud to weld a cupped washer on then weld a nut to the washer. (this is almost guaranteed to get it out if done correctly)  

[jcwvfr]

How about smearing the end for the torx bit with some grease and put sand on it to make more surface area and grip?

[jcwvfr]

Order a new plug first…..

[MichiganBob]

Good Evening all,

 

Would heating the plug and surrounding surface help with the punch/chisel approach? Just wondering.

[dirtrider]

10 hours ago, MichiganBob said:

Good Evening all,

 

Would heating the plug and surrounding surface help with the punch/chisel approach? Just wondering.

Morning  MichiganBob

 

It might but that is a difficult thing to do as it is full of heat absorbing gear oil so adding enough heat to actually do anything would probably burn the paint on the final drive. 

 

The area surrounding the plug could be packed with heat protection putty then a small pin point torch could be directed into the center of the plug torx but (personally) I would try JUST using the angled punch first before trying to heat anything.  

 

Actually if (I) was working on it I would probably try the punch method first  & if that failed just go right  to welding on a cupped washer & nut. (that adds enough heat plus gives plenty of purchase to break it loose)

[Lemans]

Happy to report success! 2X4s under the center stand provided a bit more clearance below the final drive so that I could actually see what I was doing. The rim of the plug is quite narrow, so I chose to notch it with a dremel tool rather than attempt to drill it. More than 100 impacts with a small punch and hammer would not budge the plug. As predicted by DR, my heat gun would not raise the plug temp any higher than 206 F. After forcing various hex keys, screwdriver tips, and torx bits, I was able to enlarge the opening enough to get a 7mm hex bit firmly engaged (lots of hammer use again). With slowly increasing pressure, the plug finally turned. I'll finish the job tomorrow when my Dimple plug arrives. Thanks for all the help, guys.

 

 

 

[duckhawk64]

I've heard lapping compound helps when you pound in a similar tool.

[Mike279]

Traditionally lapping compound is used on screwdriver tips to keep the tip from slipping out when trying to remove a stubborn fastener. Seems it could be used on any bit with good results.   For buggered fasteners, I usually take the bit I want to pound in and grind the radius off the end.  The sharp edge can then be used more like a broach and cut it's way in.   I also try to be a little more careful with drain plugs in that many seem to be way too tight if torqued to spec. The OP said he torqued this drain bolt properly so it should have come out without drama.  Another thought is that some tools are better than others and the bit used was a little undersized.  Having multiples in different brands, I find some will be a better fit in certain circumstances.

[dirtrider]

53 minutes ago, Mike279 said:

Traditionally lapping compound is used on screwdriver tips to keep the tip from slipping out when trying to remove a stubborn fastener. Seems it could be used on any bit with good results.   For buggered fasteners, I usually take the bit I want to pound in and grind the radius off the end.  The sharp edge can then be used more like a broach and cut it's way in.   I also try to be a little more careful with drain plugs in that many seem to be way too tight if torqued to spec. The OP said he torqued this drain bolt properly so it should have come out without drama.  Another thought is that some tools are better than others and the bit used was a little undersized.  Having multiples in different brands, I find some will be a better fit in certain circumstances.

Morning Mike 

 

That darn drain plug uses an "O" ring as a seal so there is no copper gasket to prevent the plug shoulder from sticking to the alloy housing. I have seen a few of them get tight all by themselves.

 

On the newer drives I like to use a Sliding Tee  handle on the driver bit as that allow nice even twisting pressure using both hands on the wrench handle without tilting the torx driver in the plug socket like a  ratchet would.

 

Plus, as you said, using a good quality  torx bit it a big step in preventing problems.   

 

 

[Paul De]

That T socket driver is a tool that is invaluable.   Sadly still looking for mine that got displaced in our final move to our Northwoods home.   Or, heaven forbid it somehow got mixed into the redundant/ never will use again tools that went in the estate sale

 

Sure did wince when I put my Sunnen hone set into the estate sale, but hadn’t used them in decades, but I digress.

[Lemans]

The Dimple drain plug received from BeemerBoneyard would not thread. I had the same experience with a Dimple engine oil drain plug, which was replaced by the maker. I considered use of a 12x1mm die to correct the threads, but instead ordered the OEM part. Routine maintenance should not be this hard.

[Paul De]

Given this plug uses an O-ring, my inclination would be to have a very light touch when snugging down.  Worrisomely light torque and watch/check it on every ride until convinced it was snugged enough.

[MichiganBob]

I'm getting ready to do my final drive for the first time on this bike. I've done them plenty of times before on older models without any drama. Any idea why yours was such a bear and on second thought,  if you new it would strip, would you have approached it differently?

 

Glad the outcome was positive,

[Lemans]

Having learned on good authority that the drain plug needed T40+ driver, I ignored the somewhat loose fit, resulting in the problem described above. After receiving the Dimple plug, and being unable to thread it, I purchased the appropriate size die and chased the threads. It then threaded easily. The Dimple has a hex fitting and will be very straightforward to remove. Highly recommended.

[MichiganBob]

Found this interesting thread. I didn't realize there was a regular and a + torx bit.

ATI Harmonic Balancer T-40 Plus Torx Bits - Summit Racing

https://www.summitracing.com › drive-bits › product-line

 

 

 

ATI T-40 Plus Torx bits must be used instead of regular Torx bits for easier removal of the T-40 countersunk bolts.

[Toast]

Hey now, i have this exact same problem.  I have a guy at work who has a muti-process welder but he is worried that welding on a nut will cause damage to the rear drive case.  I know nothing about welding so my question is can this type of welder be used for this kind of work?  I really just want to change the final drive oil...

[Lemans]

I spoke to an experienced welder who strongly discouraged the welded nut solution. Aside from damage to other components, he estimated at least 100-150 dollars in setup and welding costs, and would need the final drive removed from the bike. I advise the hammer and tight hex or torx bit approach, or just drilling out the plug. If the plug was installed with the correct torque, it is not actually all that difficult to turn in loose with a bit that doesn't slip.

 

Of interest to me...has anyone actually done the welded nut procedure on the drain plug with the final drive mounted?

[TSConver]

14 minutes ago, Lemans said:

I spoke to an experienced welder who strongly discouraged the welded nut solution. Aside from damage to other components, he estimated at least 100-150 dollars in setup and welding costs, and would need the final drive removed from the bike. I advise the hammer and tight hex or torx bit approach, or just drilling out the plug. If the plug was installed with the correct torque, it is not actually all that difficult to turn in loose with a bit that doesn't slip.

 

Of interest to me...has anyone actually done the welded nut procedure on the drain plug with the final drive mounted?

 

Is the plug steel or aluminum?  Not sure of the set up cost, seems high but he has to make a living.  I have welded many broken studs or bolts in both steel and aluminum heads or similar material.  Just hold a nut over the fastener and hit it with the mig.  Then spin it out.

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, Toast said:

Hey now, i have this exact same problem.  I have a guy at work who has a muti-process welder but he is worried that welding on a nut will cause damage to the rear drive case.  I know nothing about welding so my question is can this type of welder be used for this kind of work?  I really just want to change the final drive oil...

Afternoon Toast

 

I have welded a washer/nut on a number of stripped hexhead drain plugs & on one 1200 wethead final drive drain plug.

 

It isn't a job for an amateur welder for sure as the  housing can be damaged, or at least discolored if the person doing the job is not precise, cautious, & experienced .

 

On the wethead that I did I put a glass beaded (sandblasted) washer over the stripped plug with a large enough ID to allow a good weld to the plug just outside of the center hex  (inside the washer's center hole). I use a washer with an OD large enough to prevent heat & spatter damage to the housing  (the washer acts like a heat shield) 

 

I usually grind or, bead blast, any galvanized or other anti-corrosion coating off of any washer that I weld onto a fastener as I don't want weld spatter to damage the surrounding areas (clean bare metal welds clean). 

 

I also clean the coating off of the drain plug in the welding area to allow a good splatter free clean weld. If the plug is recessed a bit then I place the washer over a large socket then place a ballpeen hammer (ball end) in the washer's center hole then give it a hit with another hammer  (this gives the washer a slight  cone shape & prevents it from contacting the housing outside of the plug area). 

 

I usually use some clay, or weld heat heat blocking putty to hold the washer in place until my first tac is in place. 

 

So basically I TIG weld the washer onto the plug (washer protects the housing & is easy to weld in the ID of the washer without housing damage. Usually 3 small evenly spaced 3/16" TIG welds are enough to get the plug out  

 

Then I simply TIG weld a nut onto that washer so I have something to put a wrench on. 

 

The heat of the welding helps free the plug up so they usually come out easily after the weld process. 

 

I have done a couple of hexheads  with the drive still on the motorcycle by hanging the rear wheel & drive much farther back on my motorcycle lift then removing the rear wheel & working from underneath. But I'm a 50+ year experienced welder so I can pretty well work partially blind by sound & feel once I have my electrode in position. 

 

With all the above in mind I usually try to get the plug out first with a larger torx driver driven in (even if I have to grind on the torx driver to make it smaller so it WILL drive in). If this doesn't work then I might try a snap punch to put 3 divots on the plug  just outside of the center hex then use a small drill bit to drill those divots deeper. Then I use a small center punch at a angle to try to drive the plug in the removal direction (sometimes this works & sometimes it doesn't but usually worth a try before I go to the welding method)   

 

 

[Toast]

On 11/1/2022 at 3:42 PM, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Toast

 

I have welded a washer/nut on a number of stripped hexhead drain plugs & on one 1200 wethead final drive drain plug.

 

It isn't a job for an amateur welder for sure as the  housing can be damaged, or at least discolored if the person doing the job is not precise, cautious, & experienced .

 

On the wethead that I did I put a glass beaded (sandblasted) washer over the stripped plug with a large enough ID to allow a good weld to the plug just outside of the center hex  (inside the washer's center hole). I use a washer with an OD large enough to prevent heat & spatter damage to the housing  (the washer acts like a heat shield) 

 

I usually grind or, bead blast, any galvanized or other anti-corrosion coating off of any washer that I weld onto a fastener as I don't want weld spatter to damage the surrounding areas (clean bare metal welds clean). 

 

I also clean the coating off of the drain plug in the welding area to allow a good splatter free clean weld. If the plug is recessed a bit then I place the washer over a large socket then place a ballpeen hammer (ball end) in the washer's center hole then give it a hit with another hammer  (this gives the washer a slight  cone shape & prevents it from contacting the housing outside of the plug area). 

 

I usually use some clay, or weld heat heat blocking putty to hold the washer in place until my first tac is in place. 

 

So basically I TIG weld the washer onto the plug (washer protects the housing & is easy to weld in the ID of the washer without housing damage. Usually 3 small evenly spaced 3/16" TIG welds are enough to get the plug out  

 

Then I simply TIG weld a nut onto that washer so I have something to put a wrench on. 

 

The heat of the welding helps free the plug up so they usually come out easily after the weld process. 

 

I have done a couple of hexheads  with the drive still on the motorcycle by hanging the rear wheel & drive much farther back on my motorcycle lift then removing the rear wheel & working from underneath. But I'm a 50+ year experienced welder so I can pretty well work partially blind by sound & feel once I have my electrode in position. 

 

With all the above in mind I usually try to get the plug out first with a larger torx driver driven in (even if I have to grind on the torx driver to make it smaller so it WILL drive in). If this doesn't work then I might try a snap punch to put 3 divots on the plug  just outside of the center hex then use a small drill bit to drill those divots deeper. Then I use a small center punch at a angle to try to drive the plug in the removal direction (sometimes this works & sometimes it doesn't but usually worth a try before I go to the welding method)   

 

 

DR, this is fantastic intel, and i really appreciate the time you took to share it.  I will share with my welder co-worker and hopefully results!  Thanks!