'16 GS won't start

[New2Wheeler]

Hey everyone.... it has been a long time since I have been on the forum.  I am working through a bike problem and thought I'd ask for some input.  I have a '16 GS that won't start.  Initially I thought it might be the 2 yr old Li battery (it was low and after a few turn-overs went dead).  So I recharged the battery and tried again the next day.  Same result (just more turn-overs).   I verified both coils using a variable-gap spark tool (not sure of the right name).  Removed both plugs and they were wet (so there is at least some fuel).  I had just watched a U-tube video on checking a spark plug, so decided to use the multi-meter to check it out  (these are relatively new plugs with less that a 1000 miles since my 12k).  One plug showed 4k ohms (center conductor) the other had no continuity.  Waiting on new plugs to arrive.... however, just wondering whether the bike wouldn't crank on one cylinder (run like crap but crank).  I have left the plugs out to give the cylinders a good drying out while I wait.  

 

As always.... any help is much appreciated.

[dirtrider]

19 minutes ago, New2Wheeler said:

Hey everyone.... it has been a long time since I have been on the forum.  I am working through a bike problem and thought I'd ask for some input.  I have a '16 GS that won't start.  Initially I thought it might be the 2 yr old Li battery (it was low and after a few turn-overs went dead).  So I recharged the battery and tried again the next day.  Same result (just more turn-overs).   I verified both coils using a variable-gap spark tool (not sure of the right name).  Removed both plugs and they were wet (so there is at least some fuel).  I had just watched a U-tube video on checking a spark plug, so decided to use the multi-meter to check it out  (these are relatively new plugs with less that a 1000 miles since my 12k).  One plug showed 4k ohms (center conductor) the other had no continuity.  Waiting on new plugs to arrive.... however, just wondering whether the bike wouldn't crank on one cylinder (run like crap but crank).  I have left the plugs out to give the cylinders a good drying out while I wait.  

 

As always.... any help is much appreciated.

Evening Matt

 

If the engine was previously running then they will usually re-fire of on one cylinder if the throttle is held about 1/8 to 1/4 open at starting. 

 

If the engine has previously been cranked but no fire with fuel fouled spark plugs then it might not fire off on one cylinder. 

 

If the plugs keep fouling then check  for the possibility of water in the fuel. 

[New2Wheeler]

thank you D.R.    Will try again tomorrow, assuming the new plugs arrive as projected.

 

 

[New2Wheeler]

Well....  aired out the cylinders and changed out the spark plugs this morning and still will not start.  The bike did back-fire one time, but other than that it just turns -over with no sign of firing.   I was able to get a GS911 to see if that will tell  me anything.  Fuel pressure was 5 kbar, so I believe that means the the fuel pump if functioning properly.  The only item that catches my attention is a ....  Oil Switch, Not OK... not sure if this is a start inhibitor.  I will top off the oil just to make sure it is not low (middle of the sight-glass currently).  I have a BMW maintenance manual, but haven't found this the oil switch yet (not the easiest to navigate for me).....  I have some outside work to do today, so probably won't be back at it until this evening or tomorrow afternoon.   I need to learn how to use the Gs911 properly.... I haven't used one for several years (since my '12RT).

 

I probably need to check for water in gas, as the last time I filled up I used a "non-ethanol" pump that I do not usually use.

[dirtrider]

5 minutes ago, New2Wheeler said:

Well....  aired out the cylinders and changed out the spark plugs this morning and still will not start.  The bike did back-fire one time, but other than that it just turns -over with no sign of firing.   I was able to get a GS911 to see if that will tell  me anything.  Fuel pressure was 5 kbar, so I believe that means the the fuel pump if functioning properly.  The only item that catches my attention is a ....  Oil Switch, Not OK... not sure if this is a start inhibitor.  I will top off the oil just to make sure it is not low (middle of the sight-glass currently).  I have a BMW maintenance manual, but haven't found this the oil switch yet (not the easiest to navigate for me).....  I have some outside work to do today, so probably won't be back at it until this evening or tomorrow afternoon.   I need to learn how to use the Gs911 properly.... I haven't used one for several years (since my '12RT).

 

I probably need to check for water in gas, as the last time I filled up I used a "non-ethanol" pump that I do not usually use.

Morning Matt

 

See if your spark plugs are wet again, if so then definitely check for water in the fuel. 

 

The oil switch should not prevent engine starting.

 

You might also put a dry spark plug in one of the coils then see if you are getting a nice bluish colored spark while cranking.  

[New2Wheeler]

Hello DR.  Again thank you for taking the time to help!  I did get a chance to check the spark on both coils.  They look good to me. 

 

As a side note.... I used the two old spark plugs.  From the original post, one showed 4k ohms through the center electrode and the other open circuit.  Both worked for the spark test. Both plugs passed the center electrode to outside test (no short).

 

Looking at the odometer, I only drove 2.6 miles since I filled up the tank (with non-ethanol).   So, you are convincing me that maybe I have some wet fuel.  Is there an easy way to get a sample?  pull an injector and collect in a jar?  or do I need to take the tank off (not a big deal, but....).

 

thanks, Matt

[dirtrider]

13 minutes ago, New2Wheeler said:

Hello DR.  Again thank you for taking the time to help!  I did get a chance to check the spark on both coils.  They look good to me. 

 

As a side note.... I used the two old spark plugs.  From the original post, one showed 4k ohms through the center electrode and the other open circuit.  Both worked for the spark test. Both plugs passed the center electrode to outside test (no short).

 

Looking at the odometer, I only drove 2.6 miles since I filled up the tank (with non-ethanol).   So, you are convincing me that maybe I have some wet fuel.  Is there an easy way to get a sample?  pull an injector and collect in a jar?  or do I need to take the tank off (not a big deal, but....).

 

thanks, Matt

Afternoon Matt

 

You might first try putting the motorcycle on the side stand for a few hours (this allows water to settle to the bottom in the low side of the tank) , then try to get a small diameter hose in through the fuel filler opening down to the bottom of the tank on the side-stand side  (as far down to the bottom & at lowest part as possible).  Then try to siphon out about a quart of fuel into a clear jar.  (most local hardware stores carry lengths of small diameter clear hose)

 

Then allow to settle & see if there is a water/fuel separation line.

 

If you have a lot of water in the fuel this will show it, if just a little water then it might not. 

[Lemans]

This happened to me when the cam position sensor became loose and rotated out of time. It's secured by a small set screw which had become loose. I recall that it is located behind the L head cover...easy to check. 

[LAF]

4 hours ago, Lemans said:

This happened to me when the cam position sensor became loose and rotated out of time. It's secured by a small set screw which had become loose. I recall that it is located behind the L head cover...easy to check. 

Left side and that set screw is 8nm so it don't take much.  Very good thought as even if it slipped a bit, I have fixed quite a few hard starts with a cam timing and then setting the cam position sensor to the correct spot.

 

[New2Wheeler]

an update on the bike.  I currently have the tank off and drained, will put back on tomorrow.  No signs of "obvious" water.   I did get the bike to run for a couple of revolutions (before taking the tank off).....  clearly not well....  I will check the cam sensor tomorrow..... thank you for the lead. 

[New2Wheeler]

grrrh!!!  I am beginning to put the bike back together.  I did check the cam shaft sensor trigger, and it appears to be properly aligned and tight.  Putting the tank back on and I am hitting a roadblock.   The Service manual appears to indicate there should be two o-rings on the fuel line quick-action coupling, however I only seem to have one.  I went to an online parts microfiche, and there it appears only to have one.     The image on the part catalog also shows one (table below only).  The one I am "missing" is furthest from the tip and would seem to be the least likely to have come off (unless it tore in two).  I have looked on the bike and around the tank and don't see it.... though I have to admit these types of items can be hard to find once dropped into the machine.   Anyone know whether there should be one or two rings on the quick action coupling?  I guess I will call the dealer parts department and see what they say.  Would hate to have a gas leak.....

[New2Wheeler]

Ok...... I called the dealer and they say there is only one..... I apologize for the distraction.   I enjoy doing my own work...... but sometimes I am not sure why......  thanks for the moral support!!

[dirtrider]

12 minutes ago, New2Wheeler said:

grrrh!!!  I am beginning to put the bike back together.  I did check the cam shaft sensor trigger, and it appears to be properly aligned and tight.  Putting the tank back on and I am hitting a roadblock.   The Service manual appears to indicate there should be two o-rings on the fuel line quick-action coupling, however I only seem to have one.  I went to an online parts microfiche, and there it appears only to have one.     The image on the part catalog also shows one (table below only).  The one I am "missing" is furthest from the tip and would seem to be the least likely to have come off (unless it tore in two).  I have looked on the bike and around the tank and don't see it.... though I have to admit these types of items can be hard to find once dropped into the machine.   Anyone know whether there should be one or two rings on the quick action coupling?  I guess I will call the dealer parts department and see what they say.  Would hate to have a gas leak.....

 

 

Afternoon Matt 

 

I don't have a 2016 GS tank in front of me so this is from memory-- 

 

Doesn't the trigger assembly that locks that 90° fuel fitting into the fuel pump passthrough lock into that upper notch?

 

 

 

 

 

[New2Wheeler]

looks that way to me.  yes.  If it wasn't for the manual suggesting there were two, I wouldn't have even considered.  However, given that I was dealing with the gas line, right above the engine .... I was trying to be "by the book"..... just so happens maybe the book wasn't correct.  

[Beech]

When you insert the male end be sure to hold open the slide lock so it does not nick the O-ring. When in perfect condition they stay open until seated parts let the release go but trouble can happen.

[New2Wheeler]

The bike is running!!!!!  What a relief!

 

For those who fight "bad gas" in the future, here are a few learnings.  After dumping the tank and reinstalling, I still couldn't get the bike to run.  I was successful getting it to run for a couple of seconds during which time huge amounts of white smoke were emitted (dry cylinders and plugs).  But eventually it was too "wet" and no ignition possible.   I was really discouraged at this point, since I had emptied the tank, dried the cylinders and still no progress.  There was so much white smoke I started to worry I had a head gasket failure.    My next attempt (and one I believe is necessary) was to remove the fuel injectors and plugs and run the residual fuel into glass jars ..... I did this for many engine cycles and only collected small amounts of fuel.....  and so I did it more.  I don't know what the residual fuel line volume is, but if you have really "bad" fuel it takes a while to purge.   Recharged the battery over night, and this morning I purged a little more.  After putting the plugs and injectors back I tried to start again.    Dry cylinders and plug, started then bellowed white smoke.  Lost it and had a hard time getting to start again.... but finally it did and I was able to get the revs up.....  White, black and blue smoke like crazy.    Enough fuel was in the exhaust system for a couple of good backfires.   Within 5 minutes the engine stabilized and ran like "normal".   I cut it off and restarted a few times.... just to make sure.  The next test will be when it is cold. 

 

Thanks DR, Lamans, LAF for the suggestions and moral support!!!

 

Beech... my quick connect stayed locked open... but thanks for the heads up!

 

Matt

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, New2Wheeler said:

The bike is running!!!!!  What a relief!

 

For those who fight "bad gas" in the future, here are a few learnings.  After dumping the tank and reinstalling, I still couldn't get the bike to run.  I was successful getting it to run for a couple of seconds during which time huge amounts of white smoke were emitted (dry cylinders and plugs).  But eventually it was too "wet" and no ignition possible.   I was really discouraged at this point, since I had emptied the tank, dried the cylinders and still no progress.  There was so much white smoke I started to worry I had a head gasket failure.    My next attempt (and one I believe is necessary) was to remove the fuel injectors and plugs and run the residual fuel into glass jars ..... I did this for many engine cycles and only collected small amounts of fuel.....  and so I did it more.  I don't know what the residual fuel line volume is, but if you have really "bad" fuel it takes a while to purge.   Recharged the battery over night, and this morning I purged a little more.  After putting the plugs and injectors back I tried to start again.    Dry cylinders and plug, started then bellowed white smoke.  Lost it and had a hard time getting to start again.... but finally it did and I was able to get the revs up.....  White, black and blue smoke like crazy.    Enough fuel was in the exhaust system for a couple of good backfires.   Within 5 minutes the engine stabilized and ran like "normal".   I cut it off and restarted a few times.... just to make sure.  The next test will be when it is cold. 

 

Thanks DR, Lamans, LAF for the suggestions and moral support!!!

 

Beech... my quick connect stayed locked open... but thanks for the heads up!

 

Matt

Afternoon Matt 

 

Glad you have it running again. With all that smoke it sounds more like you might have had a high diesel fuel content  in with your gasoline instead of water.

 

You might give the gas station a call to see what they have to say (if bad fuel then you obviously weren't the only one effected).

 

Years ago I filled my Suburban up at a local gas station (35 gallons), the thing ran like crap on my way home (about 4 miles). Next morning it wouldn't start, belched smoke like crazy, then just wouldn't start. Turns out their diesel fuel delivery truck put the diesel fuel into the wrong underground tank. 

 

I rode my motorcycle back to that station the next day to see what they sold me. The place was still filled with stalled vehicles. They told me to have it repaired & submit the bill to them for reimbursement.     By that time I have already drained my tank & re-filled with gasoline.  But I did submit a bill for new spark plugs, new fuel filter, new pump sock, oil & filter change, 42 gallons of fresh gasoline, fuel line clean-out, my labor. They gave me a check for $280.00 no questions asked (probably could have asked for more).  

 

You might also think about an oil & filter change as some (or a lot) of that non-firing junk probably got past your piston rings then into the crankcase.

 

 

[Skywagon]

I wanted to wait until you had it running before I shared a story. When I had my 1150 , I pulled into a station on the exit to my house. I was about a mile from home. Filled it up, made it about a block and it died. Start, spit, sputter, die. Called the wife and had her bring a long rope and she towed me home (slowly). After days of trouble shooting finally took the tank off and dumped the fuel. Fresh fuel added…smoke, spit, sputter, then smoothed out and ran great. The station claimed I was the only complaint. I later read in the paper (remember newspapers) there had been several cars with problems.   Hope you found your problem so you can have confidence in the bike. 

[New2Wheeler]

Good news, again.  The bike started right up this morning like normal.  I am 90+% confident the issue was bad gas, and I am leaning in the direction of diesel contamination.  I went by the station yesterday, and the owner(?) said he hadn't had any complaints.   He did offer for me to bring in a sample and his company would analyze.   I called the BP gas quality guarantee number, and I only got a recording of a long list of items to mail including a written statement from a qualified mechanic on letterhead.  I will probably send them my story.

 

The gas was very yellow in color.  I did put about a cup of gas in a glass jar into the freezer over night to see whether any moisture would separate (don't tell my wife).  By morning there was a single small droplet of a second phase.  I would guestimate that is about 100 ppm.    The way my bike behaved and the amount of smoke generated seems like this wouldn't be the cause given that I never did find a bulk second water phase.

 

I have about 20 gallons of this material in 5 gallon containers.  My credit card indicates the containers were pumped 2 days after the motorcycle (I was getting fuel for a generator prior to an ice storm).   Luckily the county recycle center allows gasoline in the oil collection tank.   For now I am just happy the bike seems ok.  I will do an oil change when the parts arrive and change the plugs again for safe measure. 

 

The END!!  Thanks for riding along!

 

 

 

[dirtrider]

43 minutes ago, New2Wheeler said:

Good news, again.  The bike started right up this morning like normal.  I am 90+% confident the issue was bad gas, and I am leaning in the direction of diesel contamination.  I went by the station yesterday, and the owner(?) said he hadn't had any complaints.   He did offer for me to bring in a sample and his company would analyze.   I called the BP gas quality guarantee number, and I only got a recording of a long list of items to mail including a written statement from a qualified mechanic on letterhead.  I will probably send them my story.

 

The gas was very yellow in color.  I did put about a cup of gas in a glass jar into the freezer over night to see whether any moisture would separate (don't tell my wife).  By morning there was a single small droplet of a second phase.  I would guestimate that is about 100 ppm.    The way my bike behaved and the amount of smoke generated seems like this wouldn't be the cause given that I never did find a bulk second water phase.

 

I have about 20 gallons of this material in 5 gallon containers.  My credit card indicates the containers were pumped 2 days after the motorcycle (I was getting fuel for a generator prior to an ice storm).   Luckily the county recycle center allows gasoline in the oil collection tank.   For now I am just happy the bike seems ok.  I will do an oil change when the parts arrive and change the plugs again for safe measure. 

 

The END!!  Thanks for riding along!

 

 

 

Morning New2Wheeler

 

Good news in it now running OK. 

 

If you can't get satisfaction from that gas station & you paid by credit card, then, (if it were me) I would file a dispute with my credit card company. (this usually gets their attention). 

 

 

[Skywagon]

You can do two elementary test to see if diesel. Not guaranteed but usually pretty accurate. Rub a small amount between two fingers. If it is slow to dry and feels oily it’s likely diesel

 

put a small amount on pavement and throw a match at it. If slow to light probably diesel

 

[dirtrider]

36 minutes ago, Skywagon said:

You can do two elementary test to see if diesel. Not guaranteed but usually pretty accurate. Rub a small amount between two fingers. If it is slow to dry and feels oily it’s likely diesel

 

put a small amount on pavement and throw a match at it. If slow to light probably diesel

 

Moring David

 

 "put a small amount on pavement and throw a match at it. If slow to light probably diesel"-- This might not be a valid test as it probably has some gasoline mixed in. 

 

I use a mixture of #2 diesel & gasoline to burn brush piles & even with very little gasoline in the mixture it usually lights off with a big explosive-like woosh. If pure diesel then this would probably be a valid test. 

[Skywagon]

DR.. good point. Reminded me of a story in college

Had a college “Cajun” friend named Rocky Rousseau (Roo-So). When we would go camping and dinner time came, he would ALWAYS say, cut down that tree, and go get me a gallon of gas.  That’s truly how he started a fire. 

[dirtrider]

removed

[LAF]

Good news and very happy you got it squared away. 

 

I have had water in gas and it is no fun at all.  Problem will be now with prices so high 93 and 91 octane gas may sit so pick the busiest motorcycle gas station you know of for gas.  I have one where I know the 91-93 goes as it is used by a lot of motorcycles but still no guarantee of fresh gas.