Engine seems to have a miss while riding

[2015 Blue RT]

OK, thanks for the info. No riding today, it rained all day. Looks like I may get  a chance on Friday. I can work on making a spreadsheet, but it is a manual entry process. I have to watch the video & then pause it at a certain RPM to get the data. Hopefully a full speed road test when it is surging/missing will show a possible cause. In the meantime I'm going to try a couple of 28K mile used coils from a 2017 RT that are on eBay, I got a 10% off coupon for them today.

[dirtrider]

21 minutes ago, 2015 Black RT said:

OK, thanks for the info. No riding today, it rained all day. Looks like I may get  a chance on Friday. I can work on making a spreadsheet, but it is a manual entry process. I have to watch the video & then pause it at a certain RPM to get the data. Hopefully a full speed road test when it is surging/missing will show a possible cause. In the meantime I'm going to try a couple of 28K mile used coils from a 2017 RT that are on eBay, I got a 10% off coupon for them today.

Evening  2015 Black RT

 

With all you have going on & have done then trying new coil or coils is probably a good shortcut to either prove or dis-prove that coils are your issue.  

[2015 Blue RT]

New (to me) coils arrived today after a 14 hour work day! Fortunately an easy remove & replace and after a blast up & down the driveway, I'm missing the missing!!!  I'll do a full test ride to work tomorrow but for now this problem is solved.

[Cap]

Thanks for sharing.  I learned something from your reporting.  I had a belief that the failure mode for coils was one of working perfectly until they stopped working at all.  But your coils were working well at low RPMs and intermittently at higher RPMs.  So, that is interesting, and I have that filed away now.

 

My experience with failing coils is with a 2004 R1150RT with a dual-sparkplug configuration.  I had several coils fail during my years of ownership, and the engine would continue to run OK, but just a bit rough.  Disconnecting the lower (secondary) plug was diagnostic -- the engine would immediately stop firing on that cylinder.  Also, disconnecting the primary coil was somewhat diagnostic, if disconnecting made no difference in how it was running.  So, I came to believe that the failure mode for coils is complete and catastrophic.  But it could have been the case that the coils were failing gradually, and I didn't notice because I had a second well-functioning spark plug in the cylinder. 

 

Just goes to show that we need to check our assumptions.

 

Cap

[alegerlotz]

I read somewhere that one of the things that can shorten the life of coils to not change your spark plugs often enough.  At the 12K mi service interval on my 2016 RT the center electrode of each spark plug is shaped much more like a sausage than the circle it started out as (meaning the part of the center electrode closest to the side electrodes has been eaten away so the center is now flat on two sides with curved ends).

 

The bike always seems to run a bit smoother after a spark plug change.  Could a placebo effect, or could be the spark plug gap.

 

Trying to save a few bucks on plugs could end up costing you more on coils in the end.  At a minimum, they need to be re-gapped if you're going to use them past the recommended 12K change interval.

[Geekmaster]

20 hours ago, 2015 Black RT said:

New (to me) coils arrived today after a 14 hour work day! Fortunately an easy remove & replace and after a blast up & down the driveway, I'm missing the missing!!!  I'll do a full test ride to work tomorrow but for now this problem is solved.

Thanks for sticking with it and posting your journey.  I'm glad the issue is fixed for you, and as others have said, will file this information away for the future (but hope to never need it)!

[2015 Blue RT]

As an update after a 60 mile round trip, the problem is not 100% solved. It seems better at the lower RPM, but on an open stretch of road I made a u-turn and revved in a lower gear to about 7K. The problem was very noticeable at that point, so the saga continues. I'm thinking the 104+ booster may have fouled something up, so my plans now are to run a few tanks of subsidized 93 octane through it and see if things improve. Non-subsidized premium (ethanol free) is now over $5/gallon, so if the bike can run on subsidized gas I'll give it a  try.

 

I also have 5 miles of video screen capture engine data to go through from last Sunday, I'll try to find the time to do that soon.

[dirtrider]

Morning 2015 Black RT

 

Do you by chance still have your old removed fuel filter? If so you might carefully cut that open without causing it to blow up or getting metal debris into the inner element. 

 

Then see what was caught in the filter paper (this might lead to something).

 

If anything substantial in that filter paper then you might look at your fuel injectors, there are very fine filter screens in the top on the injector inlets (at least I am pretty sure as I haven't actually removed those on the wethead yet) but all the older BMW injectors had those fine filter screens so no reason to believe the wethead doesn't use those filter screens.

 

If the injector filter screens are partially plugged up (possibly from that fuel additive you used)  then it could cause that higher RPM miss or lean surge that you are feeling. 

 

The injector screens can sometimes be backflushed using brake clean then blowing high pressure air back through them while powering the injectors with a 12v source (I use a pushbutton switch so I can pulse the 12v power on & off). Those injector inlet screens (should be) removable but sometimes they get damaged in removing them. But if the screens are plugged enough sometimes they will just blow out of the injector inlets  when blowing the high pressure air back through the injector. (just something to think about & possibly check) 

 

 

[realshelby]

For what it is worth, I have used a couple octane booster products when going to the track over the years. With the newer fuel injected engines I have run into a couple issues. Changing spark plugs fixed it usually. Quite a nice coating on them from the chemicals in the booster. I also had to replace the O2 sensors in my Lightning to fix a drivability problem. I ran Torco in that all the time and it finally got to the O2 sensors. I don't run chemical additives or stuff like Sta-bil in my fuel any more. If you want a nightmare, run Sta-bil in a vehicle that has a foam baffle in the tank!

[2015 Blue RT]

I pulled both plugs yesterday & saw they have a brown coating (I tried to attach a pic, but for some reason it's not showing up). Like the above post, I figure this is due to the additive. I used a wire wheel to remove it, then reinstalled & did a test ride. This seemed to help, but I still felt some surging at higher RPM. Since I have a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil, I am going to add it per their ratio for cleaning & see how this works out. I'm on my first tank of 93 octane subsidized gas. I'll try to report back after a couple of tanks of treatment.

 

EDIT-

I think I still have the old filter in my shop's trash can. I'll see about cutting it open. I also have an injector tester I made for a Dodge engine and the fuel injection conversion on my GS1000. If it comes to that, I'll see if I can adapt it to the BMW injectors. It uses a 15 second timer and calibrated cylinders to measure output.

 

[dirtrider]

2 hours ago, 2015 Black RT said:

I pulled both plugs yesterday & saw they have a brown coating (I tried to attach a pic, but for some reason it's not showing up). Like the above post, I figure this is due to the additive. I used a wire wheel to remove it, then reinstalled & did a test ride. This seemed to help, but I still felt some surging at higher RPM. Since I have a bottle of Marvel Mystery Oil, I am going to add it per their ratio for cleaning & see how this works out. I'm on my first tank of 93 octane subsidized gas. I'll try to report back after a couple of tanks of treatment.

 

EDIT-

I think I still have the old filter in my shop's trash can. I'll see about cutting it open. I also have an injector tester I made for a Dodge engine and the fuel injection conversion on my GS1000. If it comes to that, I'll see if I can adapt it to the BMW injectors. It uses a 15 second timer and calibrated cylinders to measure output.

 

 

Morning  2015 Black RT

 

My one suggestion is to give up on all these darn FUEL ADDITIVES, your BMW motorcycle doesn't need any fuel additives & most just cause WAY more issues then they could ever solve.  

 

If you keep using fuel additives then you will never know what you have going on in the combustion chamber. 

 

If you just can't sleep unless you  pour something other than gasoline into your fuel tank then the only additive I (and BMW) would recommend is a little Techron once in a while. 

[realshelby]

Listen to Dirtrider about additives. Stuff like Marvel actually lowers octane for instance. If these engines show very little cylinder wall/piston, etc wear after 100+ thousand miles so there is NO need to add self proclaimed lubricants to the fuel. 

That brown coating doesn't look good to me. Not unlike what I saw on corrupted spark plugs when I ran additives.  I will also add that simply wire brushing additive coating off spark plugs may not be enough. That coating can promote an electrical path for the spark and it is near impossible to fully clean it off. They will still  mis-fire under certain conditions. Replace those plugs and just run straight gasoline. That will eliminate any issue from those two areas. 

[Hosstage]

I agree, I wouldn't bother trying to clean that one up, I'd just get new.

[Skywagon]

Dichlorobenzene is a key ingredient in MMO

 

it contains phosphorus, clearly toxic to car converters

 

Dichlorobenzene - EP agent as it interacts with Iron to form an Iron chloride barrier under any ZDDP

 

I found the above info on Bob the oil guys website. 
 

I agree. No additives needed in fuel. Run chevron or Texaco fuel occasionally as they have Techron and will keep your engine clean. Hope you get it sorted out soon. I would replace the plugs to eliminate that suspect. 
 

[alegerlotz]

3 hours ago, dirtrider said:

My one suggestion is to give up on all these darn FUEL ADDITIVES, your BMW motorcycle doesn't need any fuel additives & most just cause WAY more issues then they could ever solve.

 

This was my thought as well.  Stop putting anything in the tank other than top tier gas from a busy station.  Replace the plugs.

 

Systematically ruling things out/replacing them will lead to a solution.  Adding new variables like other additives will only complicate and confuse matters (even if they don't help or hurt).

[2015 Blue RT]

6 hours ago, alegerlotz said:

 

This was my thought as well.  Stop putting anything in the tank other than top tier gas from a busy station.  Replace the plugs.

 

Systematically ruling things out/replacing them will lead to a solution.  Adding new variables like other additives will only complicate and confuse matters (even if they don't help or hurt).

In an ideal world, that wouldn't be an issue. In my real world, I live in one small rural town and work in another small rural town in the next county. The closest thing to "top tier" anywhere around here is probably a Shell station that's in the opposite direction from work. On top of that, our county gas taxes are maxed out, it's 10 cents less in the adjoining county, and like 60 cents less in an adjoining state (about a 60 mile round trip vs 30 miles for the other state), which is where I normally buy gas. The gouge is still in for ethanol-free though.

 

I tried the additive with the same ethanol-free gas I've run in my Suzukis for years (without the additive) in order to save some money and that clearly didn't work out. This bike cost me more than I had budgeted but I wanted something newer & more reliable. The transport came in above budget (initial quote). Then I had to throw $300 at it for a fuel pump & filter to keep using it (which was far better than the $500+ cost for a Break My Wallet part). Add to this the shrinkflation for food & other necessities thanks in large part to the same folks that ruined my retirement. The last 6 months, I'm paying more for less. Everything has gone up except my pay. I noted a 14 hour work day earlier in this thread- I'm on salary so I don't get paid for the extra time. I don't even get to offset it. Then there is the $300 I get to pay Uncle Sam by April 15....

 

As for the "but it's only $xx cents more per gallon or $xx more dollars per tank", the fact is gasoline for me is a recurring purchase and budget item. The bike is for commuting to and from work, not so much pleasure riding, so I have to calculate expenses. It's not the one-time cost that is a big deal- it's like ram or CPU speed- the difference on recurring operations is looked at as a percentage gain or loss. For example, a 60 cent/gallon difference when gas is $3.77/gallon is about a 16% increase on this budget item.

 

Having looked at actual testing done using Techron, Marvel, and Seafoam, I plan on running the Marvel for at least a couple of tanks and then pulling the plugs to reinspect it.

[realshelby]

You state money is going out faster. Stop buying stuff you don't need for the bike! Zero additives. Including no Marvel Mystery Oil. You have one of the best BMW technicians in the US offering his help free of charge. Follow it. Which is no additives. Put new plugs in it to insure the additive coating isn't the problem. Then run whatever the cheapest 91+ gasoline is in your area. It will run fine. Once you have the bike running like it should you will likely have learned that the term "snake oil" applies to most additives! 

 

To be blunt, riding a motorcycle to work to save money isn't a good formula. I have a 2012 DL 650 V Strom that I rode to work. I also bought a new Ford C max in 2014. It was cheaper per mile to run than the motorcycle. That didn't stop me from riding to work on the V strom of course. But it sure surprised me to see the actual costs. 

[Skywagon]

I don’t mean to pile on, but the reason I posted about MMO is to be sure the results are understood. It is a good product but it may well damage your engine. It is a terrific cleaner of soot, oil, etc. it will clean all the oil off of your cylinder walls and that is something I would not want. Wiping out ZDDP will not be a good benefit.  If you believe your cylinder heads are carboned up, then go out and run it with clean plugs, high rpm, and generate as much heat as you can without damaging the engine. If you already have some MMO, pour a little in a container with some oil and watch what happens. 
Best of luck with whatever path you take. I hope you get it sorted out soon. DR is truly the Oracle and Terry isn’t far behind. 

[gary45]

16 hours ago, 2015 Black RT said:

 

 

 

Having looked at actual testing done using Techron, Marvel, and Seafoam, I plan on running the Marvel for at least a couple of tanks and then pulling the plugs to reinspect it.

 

The video is interesting however modern fuel injection engines cannot be compared to a low tech low compression flat head lawnmower engine and the results from burning gasoline.

Back in the 60s and 70s when I had carburetors I always simply cleaned them by soaking all the parts in straight alcohol overnight , removed all deposits 100% so I wonder if the 10% alcohol does not contribute to the fact that none of my fuel injected bike or car engines have ever had anymore than a very slight light tan deposit or no deposit at all.

[2015 Blue RT]

9 hours ago, realshelby said:

You state money is going out faster. Stop buying stuff you don't need for the bike! Zero additives. Including no Marvel Mystery Oil. You have one of the best BMW technicians in the US offering his help free of charge. Follow it. Which is no additives. Put new plugs in it to insure the additive coating isn't the problem. Then run whatever the cheapest 91+ gasoline is in your area. It will run fine. Once you have the bike running like it should you will likely have learned that the term "snake oil" applies to most additives! 

 

To be blunt, riding a motorcycle to work to save money isn't a good formula. I have a 2012 DL 650 V Strom that I rode to work. I also bought a new Ford C max in 2014. It was cheaper per mile to run than the motorcycle. That didn't stop me from riding to work on the V strom of course. But it sure surprised me to see the actual costs. 

Responses:

1) The Marvel oil as I noted was already on hand, so it was not an extra cost. I had bought the bad additive 104+ prior to gas prices spiking, but haven't used it in well over a month. The stuff I've bought for the bike is all practical in nature- an aftermarket trunk I use daily, extra lights + a brake flasher for it (safety due to the tiny OEM tail light), and an aftermarket windshield that offers improved wind protection. All of that was only slightly more than the fuel pump since I do all my own work. I do plan on getting another set of plugs, but that's about a week away depending on how fast they ship.

 

2) I can't afford any new vehicle right now, but let's run the numbers for the given example as a lower cost used vehicle (from what I can tell a new one is around $25K):

Common factors: Daily commute of 61 miles, 5 days/week or 305 miles/week or 15,250 miles/year if two weeks are taken off. Purchase cost is spread out over 60 months to obtain a monthly average cost. There are other intangibles as well, such as not using the bike on rainy days and the cost of maintenance, which I would guess favors the C-Max. EDIT- another intangible is I like to ride motorcycles, so points for the R1200.

 

I found a used 2016 C-Max on Autotrader with 61K miles for $16,000. This is actually a decent comparison since the R1200 is a similar model year. Adding the cost to transport it and then tax and title, the cost would round up to around $18,000. It will cost around $700/year to insure ($58/month). It averages 40 MPG and can run on regular subsidized gas, which averages $3.70/gallon. Total annual fuel cost is about $1,411 or about $118/month.

 

A 2015 R1200RT was $6,000 + $1,000 transport + $500 tax/title= $7,500. No insurance is required. It averages 49 MPG, however the average fuel cost for subsidized 93 octane (91 not available) premium is $4.40/gallon. Total annual fuel cost is about $1,369 or about $114/month.

 

Using a spreadsheet:

Accounting for purchase cost, fuel, and insurance, the C-Max will cost on average $476/month. The R1200 will cost about $239/month, for a difference of $237 more to purchase & operate the C-Max. Breaking this down as an annualized cost per mile for an apples:apples figure, I got 37 cents/mile for the C-Max and 19 cents/mile for the R1200, about half as much.

 

As a further exercise, I inflated the cost of the bike to match the $16K, and it was still less expensive in CPM at 33 cents vs 37.

 

One of these days I'll get my 1991 Dodge Daytona 2.5L running again and use it for rainy days. As I recall, it averaged around 32 MPG.

 

 

 

[2015 Blue RT]

8 hours ago, Skywagon said:

I don’t mean to pile on, but the reason I posted about MMO is to be sure the results are understood. It is a good product but it may well damage your engine. It is a terrific cleaner of soot, oil, etc. it will clean all the oil off of your cylinder walls and that is something I would not want. Wiping out ZDDP will not be a good benefit.  If you believe your cylinder heads are carboned up, then go out and run it with clean plugs, high rpm, and generate as much heat as you can without damaging the engine. If you already have some MMO, pour a little in a container with some oil and watch what happens. 
Best of luck with whatever path you take. I hope you get it sorted out soon. DR is truly the Oracle and Terry isn’t far behind. 

No problem, but what you typed is contrary to my experience with using it on a bike (an older Honda Sabre). I found a "Bob the Oil Guy" posting on Marvel as it relates to a semi-modern Suzuki 1250 Bandit. The responses there questioned using it in the oil with a wet clutch (and in fact Marvel on their motorcycle page says not to use it for wet clutches), but the ones that mentioned using it in the fuel only were positive. I have no plans to add it to the oil.

[Dave_in_TX]

2 hours ago, 2015 Black RT said:

Responses:

1) The Marvel oil as I noted was already on hand, so it was not an extra cost. I had bought the bad additive 104+ prior to gas prices spiking, but haven't used it in well over a month. The stuff I've bought for the bike is all practical in nature- an aftermarket trunk I use daily, extra lights + a brake flasher for it (safety due to the tiny OEM tail light), and an aftermarket windshield that offers improved wind protection. All of that was only slightly more than the fuel pump since I do all my own work. I do plan on getting another set of plugs, but that's about a week away depending on how fast they ship.

 

2) I can't afford any new vehicle right now, but let's run the numbers for the given example as a lower cost used vehicle (from what I can tell a new one is around $25K):

Common factors: Daily commute of 61 miles, 5 days/week or 305 miles/week or 15,250 miles/year if two weeks are taken off. Purchase cost is spread out over 60 months to obtain a monthly average cost. There are other intangibles as well, such as not using the bike on rainy days and the cost of maintenance, which I would guess favors the C-Max. EDIT- another intangible is I like to ride motorcycles, so points for the R1200.

 

I found a used 2016 C-Max on Autotrader with 61K miles for $16,000. This is actually a decent comparison since the R1200 is a similar model year. Adding the cost to transport it and then tax and title, the cost would round up to around $18,000. It will cost around $700/year to insure ($58/month). It averages 40 MPG and can run on regular subsidized gas, which averages $3.70/gallon. Total annual fuel cost is about $1,411 or about $118/month.

 

A 2015 R1200RT was $6,000 + $1,000 transport + $500 tax/title= $7,500. No insurance is required. It averages 49 MPG, however the average fuel cost for subsidized 93 octane (91 not available) premium is $4.40/gallon. Total annual fuel cost is about $1,369 or about $114/month.

 

Using a spreadsheet:

Accounting for purchase cost, fuel, and insurance, the C-Max will cost on average $476/month. The R1200 will cost about $239/month, for a difference of $237 more to purchase & operate the C-Max. Breaking this down as an annualized cost per mile for an apples:apples figure, I got 37 cents/mile for the C-Max and 19 cents/mile for the R1200, about half as much.

 

As a further exercise, I inflated the cost of the bike to match the $16K, and it was still less expensive in CPM at 33 cents vs 37.

 

One of these days I'll get my 1991 Dodge Daytona 2.5L running again and use it for rainy days. As I recall, it averaged around 32 MPG.

 

 

 

Have you figured the cost of tires in?

[2015 Blue RT]

Tires would fall under the maintenance category, which I figured would be in the car's win column. A check on Walmart shows generic 225/50-17 radials are about $61 each. Unlike the bike tires, I would have to pay to have these mounted & balanced, that's usually $15-20 each, so a set of tires installed would run around $300+ (plus tax). They have a treadwear warranty of 45K miles, so I'd figure they're good for at least 40K miles or 3+ years.

 

I found a set of Metzelers for the R1200 at an online retailer shipped for about $170. Presuming they would only last a year (I got 20K out of a set on my GSX), the cost for 3 years would be around $510 vs $300 for the car. That's not enough to offset the added insurance cost over just one year.

[Hosstage]

Talk of bike vs car for commuting is a moot point here, the real point is getting the bike to run right. Who cares how Black RT wants to use it? Is there really a reason to recommend a car over a motorcycle? I'm disappointed, this is a motorcycle forum, not your mom and dad being disappointed in your choices forum.

Get back on track, sort the bike, and go forward!

[realshelby]

Not trying to start an argument, but let me just say you are missing MANY points about why the car can be cheaper! I will leave it there....

Good luck with this project. You have done good chasing it. 

[realshelby]

9 hours ago, Hosstage said:

Talk of bike vs car for commuting is a moot point here, the real point is getting the bike to run right. Who cares how Black RT wants to use it? Is there really a reason to recommend a car over a motorcycle? I'm disappointed, this is a motorcycle forum, not your mom and dad being disappointed in your choices forum.

Get back on track, sort the bike, and go forward!

Only reason I mentioned car vs bike was because the OP said he bought the bike to be cheaper to commute on. Facts are just that. No intention to disappoint! 

[Hosstage]

I know you were trying to help with common sense points, but we all choose to ride for different reasons, very few are based on good common sense!

[2015 Blue RT]

8 hours ago, realshelby said:

Not trying to start an argument, but let me just say you are missing MANY points about why the car can be cheaper! I will leave it there....

Good luck with this project. You have done good chasing it. 

I understand. I detest arguing which always devolves into name calling. I enjoy a reasoned debate & also analyzing things.

[2015 Blue RT]

Doing some more reading & watching, first off I ordered a pair of NGK iridium plugs that received a favorable review in a wethead on another site. They'll be here next week. Next, I saw that plugs can be cleaned effectively with an ultrasonic cleaner & some "LA Totally Awesome" / White Vinegar mix. Since today & tomorrow are rain days here and I have that tool, I stopped in at the convenience store on the way home & picked up a bottle of each. I took a picture of the plugs as they were- you can see the brown gunk down past the insulator- as another member here stated wire wheel cleaning doesn't get everything. I'm cleaning them now & will post a before and after picture once done.

[2015 Blue RT]

I got the ultrasonic cleaning completed, and the plugs looked a lot better. It was a big surprise when I put them back in and got a no-start condition. I'm figuring the solution left a residue on them. I then used my media blaster cabinet and some aluminum oxide media, followed up with some brake cleaner to wash out any media. Started right up. I can't road test it due to weather, but will try to update on Friday. I'll attach some pics.

This is before the ultrasonic cleaner:

 

This shot shows the brown stuff better:

 

 

Here they are in the cleaner. The brown stuff could be seen being removed.

 

 

Here are the plugs after the cleaning:

 

 

[realshelby]

The coatings additives leave tend to bond very tightly. That reddish brown is what I used to see from additives. I suspect by the time you blasted the plug tip enough with abrasive, that the abrasion from that would degrade the plug too! Iridium plugs are good. They do seem to help with misfire conditions. 

 

I will add that I tried to cheat the 12K interval plug change once in my RT. They looked just fine. By the time the next oil change was due I replaced them, just not running as good. New plugs fixed that. What you "see" may not prove them to be in good condition. 

[Bernie]

Spark plugs are a consumable item, just like oil, oil filter and tires. 

[Hosstage]

14 minutes ago, Bernie said:

Spark plugs are a consumable item, just like oil, oil filter and tires. 

I always have spares on hand. I tend to do things spur of the moment, I like to have those supplies on hand. Well, except for tires, I do change those spur of the moment too, but call my independent shop first to make sure he has them.

[Geekmaster]

2015 Black RT, hopefully your new Iridium plugs should be in soon.  I replaced the original-style plugs with Iridium at my 12k service.  FYI, the electrodes in my original plugs were very worn and small at the time of the 12k service, but the plugs were a nice light-tan color.  So, I wouldn't recommend using the plugs you have right now - they don't look so good.  If you can wait until the Iridium ones arrive, hopefully those will work and solve your problem.  Make sure to check the gaps, although they should be fine from the factory.

 

I assume these are the plugs you ordered?  NGK LMAR9AI-8

[2015 Blue RT]

I got the plugs yesterday, checked the gap was .030, and installed them. I used the same heat range as stock (8 I think). These have one side strap vs 2 on the old plugs. I put a fresh tank full of 93 subsidized gas in over the weekend. Today's ride to work was much better, I don't feel the surging/miss anymore. This problem was self-inflicted, so hopefully another can learn from it before they do the same thing.