13 RT front vibration/shudder on braking with new brake pads

[pavjayt]

Hi all,

 

Replaced both front brake pads over the weekend and installed them properly.

 

Removed the clip and then the screw and then the spring clip

Removed old pads and transferred backing plates to new pads

Installed the inner pads

Decompressed the pistons slowly 

Installed outside pads

Installed the spring clip

Installed the screw through the brake pads holes and then the clip in place

Pumped the lever few times to get it tight

 

Not sure whatelse you have to do. Have been doing the same since I started replacing the brake pads on this bike with same EBC FA335HH model. This is the third time I am replacing these and never had this kind of judder/vibration while braking at more than 25mph speeds. At stop lights I dont feel it. 

 

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, pavjayt said:

Hi all,

 

Replaced both front brake pads over the weekend and installed them properly.

 

Removed the clip and then the screw and then the spring clip

Removed old pads and transferred backing plates to new pads

Installed the inner pads

Decompressed the pistons slowly 

Installed outside pads

Installed the spring clip

Installed the screw through the brake pads holes and then the clip in place

Pumped the lever few times to get it tight

 

Not sure whatelse you have to do. Have been doing the same since I started replacing the brake pads on this bike with same EBC FA335HH model. This is the third time I am replacing these and never had this kind of judder/vibration while braking at more than 25mph speeds. At stop lights I dont feel it. 

 

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

With brake judder it typically isn't the stationary side, it is almost always the rotational side. 

 

Was the judder there at first ride after new pads, or did it come on after riding it a few times?

 

More than likely it is rotor staining or possibly brake pad disposition.  

 

Rotor staining causes a higher friction surface in the stained areas causing increased brake pad friction as the (applied) pads pass the stained rotor area (difficult to see or feel but your brake pads sure can find it).

 

Brake pad disposition is typically caused by stopping hard from speed  (getting the rotors red hot) then sitting still (at a stop sign or stop light) with the brakes held on hard (pads clamped tight against the hot rotors).  With this you get a brake judder shake every time the barking pads cross that higher friction pad disposition area. Some cheaper brake pads are pretty bad in this department.  

 

You might try cleaning your brake rotors with brake clean & a red Scotch pad. Sometimes that is enough but 

rotor staining or pad pad disposition can be difficult to remove at times.  

  

 

 

 

[Bernie]

Clean your discs with a Scotch pad, works every time.

[Scott9999]

Like the others said, judder is usually caused by rotor issues.  (sticky pistons, caliper issues like piston and/or cylinder scoring, leaking boots, etc., could certainly cause a stutter when engaging the brakes, but rotor issues are usually the cause.) 

 

If the rotors cannot be turned (i.e. it would result in a too thin, below spec rotor thicknesses), the next best thing is to clean them (as others have mentioned).   You could also attach  a sheet of fine emery paper to a very flat surface (e.g. a piece of glass), and run the face of the rotors across the paper to "dress them", i.e. flatten out any minor wear grooves on the rotors.  Brake rotors are very hard steel, and it's almost impossible (IMHO and experience) to reduce too much steel by hand with this method.     I assume that you've otherwise performed your brake job correctly, i.e. that your caliper operates correctly, open and closes, and your brake pads slide smoothly on the rail (whatever that dohicky is called) as they are clamped and released, and so forth.  One can usually get away with just changing out pads once or twice, but eventually that rotor wear is going to get ya.

 

Good luck.   I just hate brake judder.

[pavjayt]

10 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

With brake judder it typically isn't the stationary side, it is almost always the rotational side. 

 

Was the judder there at first ride after new pads, or did it come on after riding it a few times?

 

More than likely it is rotor staining or possibly brake pad disposition.  

 

Rotor staining causes a higher friction surface in the stained areas causing increased brake pad friction as the (applied) pads pass the stained rotor area (difficult to see or feel but your brake pads sure can find it).

 

Brake pad disposition is typically caused by stopping hard from speed  (getting the rotors red hot) then sitting still (at a stop sign or stop light) with the brakes held on hard (pads clamped tight against the hot rotors).  With this you get a brake judder shake every time the barking pads cross that higher friction pad disposition area. Some cheaper brake pads are pretty bad in this department.  

 

You might try cleaning your brake rotors with brake clean & a red Scotch pad. Sometimes that is enough but 

rotor staining or pad pad disposition can be difficult to remove at times.  

  

Thanks again dirtrider for your reply. Today morning is the first time I drove it with new pads. I almost always never use hard braking unless necessary. Most of the time I use engine braking to slow down and then use brakes for the last mo

 

Thanks again dirtrider for your reply. Today morning is the first time I drove it with new pads. I almost always never use hard braking unless necessary. Most of the time I use engine braking to slow down and then use brakes for the last moment to come to complete stop. They were smooth with old pads and the rotors are original that came with the bike. 

[pavjayt]

36 minutes ago, Scott9999 said:

Like the others said, judder is usually caused by rotor issues.  (sticky pistons, caliper issues like piston and/or cylinder scoring, leaking boots, etc., could certainly cause a stutter when engaging the brakes, but rotor issues are usually the cause.) 

 

If the rotors cannot be turned (i.e. it would result in a too thin, below spec rotor thicknesses), the next best thing is to clean them (as others have mentioned).   You could also attach  a sheet of fine emery paper to a very flat surface (e.g. a piece of glass), and run the face of the rotors across the paper to "dress them", i.e. flatten out any minor wear grooves on the rotors.  Brake rotors are very hard steel, and it's almost impossible (IMHO and experience) to reduce too much steel by hand with this method.     I assume that you've otherwise performed your brake job correctly, i.e. that your caliper operates correctly, open and closes, and your brake pads slide smoothly on the rail (whatever that dohicky is called) as they are clamped and released, and so forth.  One can usually get away with just changing out pads once or twice, but eventually that rotor wear is going to get ya.

 

Good luck.   I just hate brake judder.

Thanks for bringing up those points Scott. I am wondering as well about some stuck piston or likewise. Will check them tomorrow morning if I get sometime. But again, as mentioned above, my rotors are stock that came with the bike

[Scott9999]

1 hour ago, pavjayt said:

Thanks for bringing up those points Scott. I am wondering as well about some stuck piston or likewise. Will check them tomorrow morning if I get sometime. But again, as mentioned above, my rotors are stock that came with the bike

I gave you kind of a lazy response.  I haven't done brake or rotor changes with Brembo caliper bikes in at least 8 years, probably more.  I just did my Ford Edge's brakes a couple months ago.  The principles are the same, but parts differ.

 

Cleaning the caliper properly is key.   The Brembo's have a pin on which the pads rest.  You should clean that pin (again, emery paper, or a brass brush) and ensure the pads slide freely over the pins.  The caliper pistons should have been pressed into the caliper, after cleaning (and inspecting) the rubber boots.  (You don't want to press in those boots with grit all over them; it's an easy way to damage the boot, or the piston cylinders.)  Obviously, that will press brake fluid back into your reservoir, which may overfill it (don't let brake fluid touch any painted part that you like a lot, i.e. suck some fluid out if necessary with a turkey baster). There's apparently some sort of slider or grove where the pads sit, as well as that pin, also needs to be smooth, cleaned, and light lubed with heat tolerant brake grease.  If the pads hang up, they'll wear unevenly, possibly causing noise, shudder, and premature pad wear.

 

Brake fluid in the calipers will be the most contaminated fluid in your system, because of the repetitive compression/heat/cooling, so I'd rather bleed the brakes before, ensuring clean fluid is in the system (or at least, bleed out a few ounces of fluid and refill the reservoir) rather than push contaminated fluid back into your brake lines.  By the way, I ALWAYS do a full brake bleed, when I service the brakes, or at least every two years.  (Brake fluid picks up water, water rusts things in the brake system that you don't want rusted, new brake fluid is cheap insurance against expense brake component replacement). 

 

Do some research for youtube video's on the procedure.  I don't have one "on the shelf" that I could recommend, as I haven't had my 2018 very long, i.e. just haven't looked closely.   There are many other steps in doing a proper brake job, other than slipping a new set of pads in.  Unless the bike's been abused, and/or has many miles without brake service (i.e. > 100K miles), the calipers should be ok, with a simple cleaning.  I wouldn't open them up unless there was definitely a notable "hitch" or other obvious damage (e.g. to the visible piston, a cut boot, rotten brake lines, etc.).  Rebuilding the caliper (seals, inspecting cylinder) is a whole 'nuther job (which I can't immediately recall how to do).   

 

There are guys on this forum (even on this thread) who have 10x (maybe even 100x) the wrenching experience I have.  I'm just tossing out stuff I recall as I serviced disk brakes, which haven't been mentioned yet.

[dirtrider]

6 hours ago, pavjayt said:

Thanks again dirtrider for your reply. Today morning is the first time I drove it with new pads. I almost always never use hard braking unless necessary. Most of the time I use engine braking to slow down and then use brakes for the last moment to come to complete stop. They were smooth with old pads and the rotors are original that came with the bike. 

Morning   pavjayt

 

If the brakes were OK with the old brake pads then you might try a quick swap back to the original pads as a test. 

 

Unless your brakes are overheating from pad drag therefore warping a brake rotor then a sticking piston or sticky caliper can't cause brake judder.

 

To get a brake judder (or pulsing) it needs something moving, either causing pad kickback during each rotor revolution, or causing a change in local friction during each rotor revolution. 

 

Typically a warped or damaged brake rotor causes judder as well as a little judder feel in the front brake hand lever while stopping. A rotor friction variation ( stained rotor or pad disposition) usually causes brake judder but no pulsing feel in the brake hand lever. 

 

The other (very slight) possibility  that can happen right after new pads are installed is a brake rotor (or rotors) that have a worn friction surface leaving  a raised ridge around the very outer circumference of the brake rotor (or rotors). This raised ridge can prevent the new pads from contacting the rotor evenly so you can get a brake pulsation until the new pads seat into that raised ridge. 

 

You might also try raising the front wheel off the ground enough to spin it,  then give it a spin while listening and/or feeling  for a change in wheel spinning friction or change in friction noise as it passes the tight spots. 

[pavjayt]

Did a quick removal and reseating of the brake pads today before heading out to work. I swapped inner pads to outer pads hoping that they go down evenly over time

 

On my way to work, the vibration is much subdued, but there is still little bit of vibration that I can feel. Hoping for it go away away after few rides.

 

Here are some pictures of they are after doing 55 mile trip (to and from work yesterday)

 

[dirtrider]

38 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

Did a quick removal and reseating of the brake pads today before heading out to work. I swapped inner pads to outer pads hoping that they go down evenly over time

 

On my way to work, the vibration is much subdued, but there is still little bit of vibration that I can feel. Hoping for it go away away after few rides.

 

Here are some pictures of they are after doing 55 mile trip (to and from work yesterday)

 

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

Obviously those pads are not fully seated in yet but that by itself isn't causing your judder.

 

It sort of looks like the very outer edges on the new pads might be contacting the outer edge build up on the brake rotors. Are your rotors completely flat all the way to the outboard edge (no slight ridge just inboard of the outer rotor edge?)

 

Post us a couple of picture of your old brake pads so we can see what the rotor contact area looks like. 

[pavjayt]

Wish I had the old pads, they are pretty much worn down so I just threw them in trash.

 

Since these rotors are stock that came with the bike, they are worn down a bit and have ridge on the outer edge and inner edge. Will take a picture of the rotors later today and upload them.

[dirtrider]

50 minutes ago, pavjayt said:

Wish I had the old pads, they are pretty much worn down so I just threw them in trash.

 

Since these rotors are stock that came with the bike, they are worn down a bit and have ridge on the outer edge and inner edge. Will take a picture of the rotors later today and upload them.

Afternoon  pavjayt

 

If your new pads are contacting that outer or inner ridge that could easily be causing your brake judder. IF that is the case then the rotor ridge will eventually wear into the new pads  & the judder will decrease or even go completely away. 

 

Or you can carefully work the outer ridge down with a LOT of block sanding, or carefully filing, or even using  small diameter right angle grinder/sander while spinning the wheel/rotor but you REALLY have to know what you are doing if using any sort of power grinder/sander.  

 

Maybe just ride it normally for a few hundred miles to evaluate if the judder is decreasing as the pads seat into the ridge.  

[pavjayt]

It is still there on my way back home.

 

This is very bothersome and unnerving while driving to have this judder feeling. More bothering than the oil burning smell I still have at stop lights

 

Looks like my lucky days ran out with this bike.

 Never thought of having this issue after changing brake pads with new set.

 

Would like to take care of this issue over this weekend.... should I get new pads set or new rotors....?!?!

[Skywagon]

DR suggested something to you a note or two ago I have seen work before.  Get some scotch brite and brake cleaner and really clean the crap out of those rotors....both sides.  They may look fine but older brake dust can be on the disk causing new pads to not seat right.  I wouldn't buy new pads until you try that.  Easy and cheap.

[pavjayt]

Sure will do that, just don't have time till the weekend and knowing that I have to ride this way till then is making me feel uneasy

[pavjayt]

Just an update, I didnt do any cleaning of the rotors, but the vibration subsided after a while of driving and as of today, there is very minimal vibration at slow stopping speeds, no vibration at highway speeds anymore. Looks like the new pads got settled in to the wear texture of the rotors