Baldy cashes out, sells to ADV to VerticalScope, owners of motorcycle.com and many other communities

[Bud]

They have a history of buying forums, then making them just like all the others for ease of support which results in folks leaving.

 

Can you imagine if this forum was sold to a large corporation who changed the look and feel w/o users input, but continued to have day to day management continue with volunteers?

 

Baldy started something that can not be replicated. Kudos to him. A large, vibrant, active, involved community of folks who had a common interest.

 

RIP ADV Rider

[Dennis Andress]

Cash is king…

[chrisolson]

 

19 minutes ago, Bud said:

Can you imagine if this forum was sold to a large corporation who changed the look and feel w/o users input, but continued to have day to day management continue with volunteers?

 

They'd also have to initiate some form of monetization strategy (subscription, dues, advertisement, etc) since we don't generate any revenue.

[9Mary7]

Was monetizing the downfall of ADV Rider?

[roadscholar]

I doubt Advrider is going anywhere, there are over 400k members and probably 10-20% of those are fairly active, just a WAG. It's had ads for a few years (you can minimize them by being a supporter at different levels). Only time will tell but you'd have to be pretty dumb to not recognize why it's been successful then try to change/ruin that formula. 

 

 

 

 

[realshelby]

I deal with Vertical Scope every day. Literally. I pay them a good sum of money to advertise. I also hang out on several of the forums they now own. With my own eyes I have seen the changes they introduce. Make no mistake, ADV is just fine for a while. Then they will go to the canned system they put on every forum they own. And they own thousands. They are never responsive and honestly don't want to be bothered by trivial problems. They would prefer to have the moderators handle that....but here is the thing. Moderators are not paid. Anything. They have far less authority to make and fix things on the forums they are on. Getting worse at that as Vertical Scope does not want anyone "fixing" their layouts. Even down to removing the ability to change fonts. Which is where I am with them, my signature is the same size and color font and they will not. Even though my contract says I can have a red color larger than script font. While this place is somewhat self policing, the forums VS have had for a while just go further downhill. Spam is a problem as they don't have moderators in enough numbers to strip that out right away.

As for monetizing, there will be BIG advertisers involved with the ADV site. Then there are the little guys like me that Baldy was just fine allowing me to promote my clutch and windshield offerings. That will go away, I am sure I will be getting a notice of cease and desist unless I sign yet another contract....

In the early to mid 2000's it must have been a lot easier to run a forum. Now it seems even hardcore site owners are selling out. I guess that is how things go. 

Be DAMN thankful this site is what it is. I need to make another donation to the site soon. Money helps with buying software and good hosting. Which makes our moderators job easier. 

This is the first I have heard about ADV and it ruins my day. But honestly ADV never earned nearly as much of my time as BMWST so there is still hope for that!

[Skywagon]

A little off topic, but in support of Terrys above message… I’ve seen his clutch baskets up close in person. I think they are a work of art and stout enough to work on a freight train. 

[Bud]

Bill, read Terry's post about his first hand experience with them. 

 

We all should be thankful every time we visit here that we have had a long line of volunteers who have made all this possible. Good on ya all.

[Bud]

Thanks Terry for the reminder to donate. Those who live in the BMWST village have been very good at helping pay the bills and keep the lights on. 

[roadscholar]

As chicken little said, the sky is falling : ) I pointed out that about 407,000 members reside at ADVrider, Stromtroopers have 57k+, it's like comparing greater LA (18M) to Jacksonville, in other words it's huge. 95% of those never go into Vendors and most don't know it exists, I get Terry's concern because it might affect his bottom line but the vast majority don't use forums for advertising. Will there be changes for monetization in some areas, probably, it's a corporation, most of the 400k won't notice or care. 

 

Here is Bud's comment on the Adv thread with a response : )

 

BMWBUD said: ↑

WTF I don't even know how to find the TOS. And I'm sure as hell not going to pay a corporation money to support this forum by buying the right to not see ads. I'm outta here.

 

You essentially were before.

 

I'd urge anyone that really cares to read the thread, it's nearly 40 pages and growing (linked below), a couple quotes from today:

 

Outrage and paranoia is much easier than education. 

 

Some of you have way too much time on your hands. It's comical to me how many inmates became internet content copyright TOS intellectual property keyboard crusaders since the VS bogeyman bought the forum. The sun will come up tomorrow.

 

https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/a-new-operator-of-advrider.1534813/  Maybe start around page 30. 

[Rougarou]

I was member of a 4x4 board years ago, it was fun, quite fun, no real limits on the dialog, which made throwing insults and receiving insults a part of the forum, personal attacks were the norm (and not a single face to face fight happened) and a known warning to all newbies asking "what size tires fit xxx vehicle",.....going onto this site, you knew or should have known that it was a hardcore 4x4 site with very few limitations on conversations.  Slowly, that board changed.  Initially, the owner, lost his job, so sought donations, of which, I was more than happy to pay/support as it was full of information to help build bigger better off-road rigs, then it turned into a business.  That is fine too, we are in a capitalist society and if you have a product that sells to the masses, might as well make some dough off it.  Then the "rules" started being applied, which put it to the point of no more fun, many, many members departed to other pastures.  Many mentions of the "old days" by some of the folks that had been around when the board opened, were posted and the moderators would simply reply to quit wishing for the old days because they aren't coming back.    That board/site is probably one of the biggest if not the biggest 4x4 forums in the world.   I eventually left the board a couple of years after I got rid of my last Jeep, I simply had no need to visit anymore save for the off-topic forums, which were closer to "politically correct" sites than the original site that got the level of membership up to the numbers they had.  A couple of years after, I had a few of the members stalk me to get an update on my current life situations to pass to the board, I gave it, and that's that.

 

I've got an account on ADV, but that's about it.  I can't say plus or minus about it, as I'm not in tune with how that place operates.  I've perused it from time to time, but hadn't got involved with it.   Will it stay, will it go, it'll likely stay 'round but bet a dollar to a doughnut that they'll be changes coming about.   Just my $.02

[Hosstage]

I'm assuming that as bigger advertisers start paying for ads, they wield some influence to make it more "civilized"?

[roadscholar]

Good point and one I wouldn't mind seeing. There is increasingly a lot of name calling, mud slinging, hate spewing in CSM (Church, State, Money) down in the Basement in large part by the side of the political spectrum I assume Baldy belongs to. Maybe he's fed up and doesn't want to try to corral it and could be one of the reasons he's out, that's just a guess though.

[RandyShields]

I hope Baldy was able to cash out on his wonderful vision.

 

Regarding the deteriorating online interactions between those with similar interests, it is amazing to me what people will say to each other online when there is no personal contact or understanding of who the person is on the other side of the communication.  Things that would never be said to someone's face -- maybe thought about silently, but never said out loud. It is not surprising to see employees fired by employers for intemperate email responses or regrettable online postings.  Not everything is protected by the First Amendment.

[szurszewski]

5 hours ago, roadscholar said:

There is increasingly a lot of name calling, mud slinging, hate spewing in CSM (Church, State, Money) down in the Basement

I spend a lot of time on adv but have managed to avoid this by never going to the basement ;)

 

…I should add though that I thought/assumed the whole point of the basement was mud slinging. 
 

I went over there mostly for hack stuff because there are precious few three wheel folks here (and those that are here seem to all also be there). If it changes for the worse that will be sad, but I didn’t build and I don’t pay for it, so it doesn’t seem like something to yell about. Obviously others there feel differently. 

[mickeym3]

Agree with avoiding advrider basement, except for this thread….some of the most amazing pictures you can imagine and very little else. I’ve also bought and sold many items including bikes, cars, trucks, etc.  The various model specific threads and ride reports are very helpful but the picture thread is always a must stop in my 5:00 AM stroll through the internet. 

https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/go-ahead-and-post-any-pic-you-want.314731/

 

[realshelby]

@roadscholar...Yes there is a business side to my opinion about ADV. But I was on ADV, Stromtroopers, etc etc etc long before I had a commercial reason to visit them. I am fine with paying for advertising ( I am NOT fine with Moderators on commercial sites not being paid!). That is NOT why I am upset to hear ADV was sold to VS. 

ADV has a unique layout. Easy to find a section that fits you, and ignore the rest.  The site is so big that really helps. Yes, there is good and bad on the site that VS isn't responsible for. 

 

What I am upset about is the changes that VS has coming. It could be that Baldy has a contract with VS ( I know of one site that has that and it stays the same ) to not implement grand changes either at all or for a period of time. Otherwise it will be either late this year or next year for the complete change to layout to come. There will be bugs on the new site. They will fix them....for the first month. Then you cannot get hold of anyone to fix things. Becomes totally generic and since they take much of the tools moderators have away, you have to wait for the VS team to allot you some "fix-it" time. 

 

ADV will survive but it will lose over time the swagger and attitude that built it. VS will neuter it over time to fit their Matrix. 

[roadscholar]

6 hours ago, realshelby said:

 It could be that Baldy has a contract with VS ( I know of one site that has that and it stays the same ) to not implement grand changes either at all or for a period of time. 

 

I don't know Baldy but have discerned enough about him over the years to think that's more than likely the case, he put a lot of blood and sweat into ADV with the tools and knowledge of how to do it. It's evolved over the decades and will continue to, hopefully w/o losing it's character. Color me optimistic/with old fashioned values but I don't think he's ever been in it for just the money and likely put the necessary stipulations in place to keep it from derailing. Like I said earlier, time will tell.    

[Bud]

7 hours ago, realshelby said:

@roadscholar...Yes there is a business side to my opinion about ADV. But I was on ADV, Stromtroopers, etc etc etc long before I had a commercial reason to visit them. I am fine with paying for advertising ( I am NOT fine with Moderators on commercial sites not being paid!). That is NOT why I am upset to hear ADV was sold to VS. 

ADV has a unique layout. Easy to find a section that fits you, and ignore the rest.  The site is so big that really helps. Yes, there is good and bad on the site that VS isn't responsible for. 

 

What I am upset about is the changes that VS has coming. It could be that Baldy has a contract with VS ( I know of one site that has that and it stays the same ) to not implement grand changes either at all or for a period of time. Otherwise it will be either late this year or next year for the complete change to layout to come. There will be bugs on the new site. They will fix them....for the first month. Then you cannot get hold of anyone to fix things. Becomes totally generic and since they take much of the tools moderators have away, you have to wait for the VS team to allot you some "fix-it" time. 

 

ADV will survive but it will lose over time the swagger and attitude that built it. VS will neuter it over time to fit their Matrix. 

I guess you, like me, are a chicken little that think the sky is falling. 

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bud

[Rougarou]

53 minutes ago, Bud said:

I guess you, like me, are chicken littles that think the sky is falling. 

 

The sky ain't falling, but the weather is changing

[realshelby]

I probably sound too serious about it. Especially considering I spend very little actual time there....compared to other sites. I think it is like classic literature and there will never be anything like it again. 

But I might have thought that about Cycle, Cycle World, etc back in the day. 

Things change!

 

Again, don't take what we have here for granted. There has never been a better all around forum and it isn't due to the BMW brand it covers. We don't see the work that goes into keeping it running. We also don't see the Spam and phishing crap here. Which tells me the people behind the scenes need ANOTHER Thank You from us all. 

[realshelby]

One quick look and grabbed this link:

 

https://www.frugalvillage.com/threads/sew-_-corset.239583/

 

Yes this is owned by Vertical Scope. How to sew your own Corset. For those here that might be interested in that? 

You might not notice...but it is the exact same layout as all other VS forums. You might also ask how much they care about motorcycles. Or Subaru's. Or Boats. 

They don't. They are a Canadian company in business to buy forums so they can attach advertising. Which is fine until the forum runs out of gas.....or needles......

[szurszewski]

I’m feeling pretty disappointed now. I was expecting a good how to thread there, or at least a corset forum I could peruse (for educational purposes only of course)…but that link just led me to a dead thread with no useful answers on a forum about “deals” or something. I demand a refund!

[roadscholar]

I’m trying to understand the logic of buying up forums then intentionally running them into the ground so everyone leaves, are they laundering money or just slow learners : )

[chrisolson]

2 hours ago, roadscholar said:

I’m trying to understand the logic of buying up forums then intentionally running them into the ground so everyone leaves, are they laundering money or just slow learners : )

 

I believe what happens is that when you substitute responsive local control and innovation with hard to reach remote management and standardization your existing members loose that "community" feeling ... consequently the old guard  leaves. 

 

From another forum with a topic on Vertical Scope that even had former VS employees commenting, VS's approach appears to be there will always be new members .   My guess is, this translates to  ....  as long as there is some traffic, there is revenue.

[roadscholar]

17 minutes ago, chrisolson said:

 

I believe what happens is that when you substitute responsive local control and innovation with hard to reach remote management and standardization your existing members loose that "community" feeling ... consequently the old guard  leaves. 

 

From another forum with a topic on Vertical Scope that even had former VS employees commenting, VS's approach appears to be there will always be new members .   My guess is, this translates to  ....  as long as there is some traffic, there is revenue.

 

Makes sense, I was being a bit tongue in cheek in countering all the doom and gloom prognostications, mostly over on ADVrider by the same 15 or 20 posters (out of 400,000).

 

Unlike GM or Chrysler I think Adv is too big to fail or, at least too good to lose. If it does go to hell in a handbasket I'd imagine someone would pick up the pieces and carry on under a different banner. Surely Baldy has a non compete clause for a time (if he's even interested) but there's likely a few willing to step up and take on the challenge.

[realshelby]

48 minutes ago, chrisolson said:

 

I believe what happens is that when you substitute responsive local control and innovation with hard to reach remote management and standardization your existing members loose that "community" feeling ... consequently the old guard  leaves. 

 

From another forum with a topic on Vertical Scope that even had former VS employees commenting, VS's approach appears to be there will always be new members .   My guess is, this translates to  ....  as long as there is some traffic, there is revenue.

Exactly this^  I was more or less told this by my rep. Yes, they lose members. But they gain members. Yet they have come up with some inventive ways to make it look like there is more traffic on the forums. Like forcing you to click through more stuff to get to what you want. So they can show more "traffic". 

 

As for control and standardization, Stromtrooper has ONLY the newest model DL 1000 on the main headers. Before we had every generation of both DL 1000 and DL 650 represented. The new bikes are but a small part of the forum. Yet there is NO WAY for the moderators to change this now. 

[Mike]

Good for Baldy. There have been commercial overtures here over the years, but our owner/proprietors have always held onto the spirit of this place.

There’s an intangible something here that I personally value…a sense of community that has survived political and social upheavals, resulting in life-changing relationships. Cary would be proud.

 

[chrisolson]

15 minutes ago, Mike said:

There have been commercial overtures here over the years, but our owner/proprietors have always held onto the spirit of this place.

 

Who knows, maybe $1,000,000 might move the spirit. 

 

                                     

 

 

 

 

[Hosstage]

I would never sell out no amount of money could change my.... How much? It's all yours! See ya suckers!

[BrianT]

Wow that pic of Cary and Fernando at the first UN brings back memories.  I miss Cary.  For some of us these people are family.  Shared bread, miles and smiles.  The loss of ADV just amplifies the importance of bmwsportouring for me.  I like ADV for the adventure/off road specific info I go there to research and I'm hoping it doesn't change much.  But the people I've ridden with here are family.

[Rougarou]

8 hours ago, Hosstage said:

I would never sell out no amount of money could change my.... How much? It's all yours! See ya suckers!

 

Everything has a price,........everything,....

[RandyShields]

8 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Everything has a price,........everything,...

George Bernard Shaw : Madam, would you sleep with me for a million pounds?
Actress: My goodness, well, I’d certainly think about it.
GBS: Would you sleep with me for a pound?
Actress: Certainly not! What kind of woman do you think I am?!
GBS: Madam, we’ve already established that. Now we are haggling about the price.
(This dialogue is also attributed to Winston Churchill and others)

[Jake]

23 hours ago, Mike said:

Good for Baldy. There have been commercial overtures here over the years, but our owner/proprietors have always held onto the spirit of this place.

There’s an intangible something here that I personally value…a sense of community that has survived political and social upheavals, resulting in life-changing relationships. Cary would be proud.

 

Hey, Raaan made those name tags and I handed em out!  To the good 'ol days!!!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On 1/27/2022 at 5:50 PM, Jake said:

Hey, Raaan made those name tags and I handed em out!  To the good 'ol days!!!

 

Still got mine; a nice keepsake.