Soon, you won't "own" anything...

[John Ranalletta]

Toyota will appears to start charging a subscription for remote start. https://www.theverge.com/2021/12/12/22831105/toyota-subscription-remote-start-key-fob

 

 

[Hosstage]

I've read about subscription services for a while now, it will eventually trickle down to all the convenience features, including heated seats, steering wheel, probably even the radio. Luckily the rearview camera is mandated, or that would be on the list too.

Dicks.

[mickeym3]

Consumers should draw the line somewhere, when BMW tried this a few years ago on some features they had to backtrack so Toyota and others should be put on notice.  Personally I would refuse to patronize a brand guilty of this, even if I had to rely on my 10 year old Honda Fit till it goes terminal and then look for an equivalent.

[Bud]

Ask John Deere tractor owners. JD promised congress they would make the software available to owners but as of today, if you call a dealer the answer is "It's not in stock."

 

There is no end to greed.

 

What is coming next is that unknown to customers, car mfgs will be programming vehicles so they are immobilized. Think about worst case. Some rogue government agency decides we should no longer be driving ICE vehicles and just turns them all off.

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

It's a real opening for competitors like Kia/Hyundai to take market share by eschewing these tactics.

 

If only the FairPhone was sold in the US to counter Apple's stranglehold on repair and repair parts. Skip to minute 2:55

 

 

[Scott9999]

I own, what I own.  What's in my safe, adequately reinforces that.  

 

I don't lease.

I don't subscribe.

I won't buy the products of a controlling enterprise (and Costco, Walmart, and Amazon are about to join that list).

I don't wear communist compliance masks (but that's another issue).  🙄

 

I'm a *** FREE ** American, and I don't play their reindeer games.  

 

But hey, if that's YOU, goferit, enjoy your new world, and don't cry when your Toyota stops on the middle of the highway, in the middle of the night, in a snowdrift, due to some electronical malfunction back at Tokyo headquarters. 

[Rougarou]

Now discuss the property you "own" whilst living in an HOA

[Scott9999]

18 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

Now discuss the property you "own" whilst living in an HOA

Well, no HOA either, but the county accessor is treating my property kinda like he owns it, so ... 

[Hosstage]

I pay for a subscription to Car and Driver. I do not pay for a subscription to remote start, and I won't. Looks like my next new car might be an old car.

[Bud]

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/fairphone-4-has-an-incredible-5-year-warranty-aims-for-6-years-of-updates/

[Hosstage]

17 minutes ago, Scott9999 said:

Well, no HOA either, but the county accessor is treating my property kinda like he owns it, so ... 

St. Paul, Minnesota started charging mandatory fees for services, sidewalk maintenance fees, boulevard tree maintenance fees, etc., charging all properties in the city. The city taken to court and promptly lost, the court ruling them unconstitutional taxes, not voted on by representatives, but enacted by unelected officials.

Suck it St. Paul.

[Hosstage]

4 minutes ago, Bud said:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/fairphone-4-has-an-incredible-5-year-warranty-aims-for-6-years-of-updates/

Seems a hell of a good idea. Back to old school repairable appliances.

[Scott9999]

3 hours ago, Bud said:

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2021/09/fairphone-4-has-an-incredible-5-year-warranty-aims-for-6-years-of-updates/

definitely what you wanna use if you're gonna strap a smart phone to your motorcycle, i.e. a LONG warranty. 

 

(wonder if there are exclusions, like "warranty is void if strapped to a bouncing motorcycle by some idiot".)  🤔😲

[John Ranalletta]

11 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Now discuss the property you "own" whilst living in an HOA

 

HOAs are PITAs; however, our HOA maintains the streets and water/sewer utility.  They collect fees like all HOAs.  If I object to a policy decision, I'm one in 113.  If I think the streets should be fixed, I can rally neighbors and have a voice.  If I live on a normal, city-maintained street in a city of 1 million + or a county road, my voice isn't even a whisper.  HOAs offer more opportunity for individual and group input than most neighborhoods.  When you by in a HOA, you know what you can/can't do.  There aren't any surprises.

 

I've had my struggles with ours and have won most of the battles to the point neighbors ask how I've gotten this and that done like deck repair, new roof, lawn re-graded and seeded.  When I say, "just don't be a sheep", they nod their heads and walk away.

 

Met a guy at coffee during an FART or START in Blairsville.  He said he sold everything, bought an RV to be "free".  That definition of freedom works for some.

[Rougarou]

3 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

HOAs are PITAs; however, our HOA maintains the streets and water/sewer utility.  They collect fees like all HOAs.  If I object to a policy decision, I'm one in 113.  If I think the streets should be fixed, I can rally neighbors and have a voice.  If I live on a normal, city-maintained street in a city of 1 million + or a county road, my voice isn't even a whisper.  HOAs offer more opportunity for individual and group input than most neighborhoods.  When you by in a HOA, you know what you can/can't do.  There aren't any surprises.

 

I've had my struggles with ours and have won most of the battles to the point neighbors ask how I've gotten this and that done like deck repair, new roof, lawn re-graded and seeded.  When I say, "just don't be a sheep", they nod their heads and walk away.

 

Than what's the difference in buying a car that offers subscription service.  "you know what you can/can't do".  Your car is your property just like your homestead

Our county website has a "road report" that you can submit a request to get a pot hole filled or other road damage corrected.  I've submitted a few potholes and they miraculously were repaired in fairly quick order.  

 

If I spend $xxx,xxx.00 on a property, that property is mine and I should be able to park a boat, trailer, rv in the driveway,.....I should be able to put up a flag pole,......I should be able to paint my house pink with yellow polka dots.

 

I'll never, ever live in a place where I buy my property and I have those types of restrictions.

 

 

[TEWKS]

26 minutes ago, Rougarou said:

I should be able to put up a flag pole,......I should be able to paint my house pink with yellow polka dots.

You did, and, I dare you! 

[Hosstage]

My city does not allow tarps to cover piles of crap or those canvas car tents in yards. I'm ok with that. I drive thru cities that do, it makes me appreciate that mine does not, but one of those car ports would be kind of handy. I need a place to store some crap. Just what I need, more crap.

We are not allowed to park vehicles on the grass either. Keeps it from looking like most front yards in Nebraska...

[Hosstage]

Pretty soon buying a car will include the phrase, "Do you want tires and wheels with that?"

[John Ranalletta]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

 

Than what's the difference in buying a car that offers subscription service.  "you know what you can/can't do".  Your car is your property just like your homestead

Our county website has a "road report" that you can submit a request to get a pot hole filled or other road damage corrected.  I've submitted a few potholes and they miraculously were repaired in fairly quick order.  

 

If I spend $xxx,xxx.00 on a property, that property is mine and I should be able to park a boat, trailer, rv in the driveway,.....I should be able to put up a flag pole,......I should be able to paint my house pink with yellow polka dots.

 

I'll never, ever live in a place where I buy my property and I have those types of restrictions.

 

 

 

To each his own.  The issue with Toyota's gambit is price gouging.  Every Toyota I've owned had a FOB and a radio.  Now, Toyota is asking customer to pay for them to interoperate.  It's good business until it isn't.  If remote start is the issue, lots of aftermarket remote starts on the market.

[Hosstage]

It may be the way of the future, but being the dinosaur that I am, I don't like it.

[realshelby]

2 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Than what's the difference in buying a car that offers subscription service.  "you know what you can/can't do".  Your car is your property just like your homestead

Our county website has a "road report" that you can submit a request to get a pot hole filled or other road damage corrected.  I've submitted a few potholes and they miraculously were repaired in fairly quick order.  

 

If I spend $xxx,xxx.00 on a property, that property is mine and I should be able to park a boat, trailer, rv in the driveway,.....I should be able to put up a flag pole,......I should be able to paint my house pink with yellow polka dots.

 

I'll never, ever live in a place where I buy my property and I have those types of restrictions.

 

 

I understand. I sort of don't follow all the rules in my HOA. But HOA rules are not there for YOU...they are there for your neighbors. Protection of property values that might not be what they should be...due to the pink house with yellow polka dots!  You understand and are lucky enough to have somewhere you can do what you want. Hard to find that in some areas!

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

To each his own.  The issue with Toyota's gambit is price gouging.  Every Toyota I've owned had a FOB and a radio.  Now, Toyota is asking customer to pay for them to interoperate.  It's good business until it isn't.  If remote start is the issue, lots of aftermarket remote starts on the market.

Nah, no different than adding options to a vehicle.  On star isnt free, its a service if you want, subscription based.  The capability is on the vehicle but you don’t get it unless you pay for it. If the vehicle comes with remote trunk available, you have the option to purchase that service to open your trunk remotely and continue using it.  Or, you can cruise the aftermarket and install yourself. Everything they are likely to offer a subscription for can get had in the aftermarket, so theres that choice thing. 
 

I really dont see it lasting very long. 
 

Memba when FM was an “option”

[Rougarou]

40 minutes ago, realshelby said:

I understand. I sort of don't follow all the rules in my HOA. But HOA rules are not there for YOU...they are there for your neighbors. Protection of property values that might not be what they should be...due to the pink house with yellow polka dots!  You understand and are lucky enough to have somewhere you can do what you want. Hard to find that in some areas!

Thats nice and all, but I choose to not support that type of organization where Im putting $xxxxxx.00 purchase price and am limited on what I can do with it. 
 

I know plenty of folks that got suckered into a home with HOA and fully regret it, then there are those that dont mind storing their excess toys miles off site, having to go to another location to do routine maintenance on a vehicle, cant have a family gathering because vehicles aren’t allowed to park curbside, and if that’s them, good on ‘em, the very important thing is their neighbors house will maintain its value

[John Ranalletta]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

Thats nice and all, but I choose to not support that type of organization where Im putting $xxxxxx.00 purchase price and am limited on what I can do with it. 
 

I know plenty of folks that got suckered into a home with HOA and fully regret it, then there are those that dont mind storing their excess toys miles off site, having to go to another location to do routine maintenance on a vehicle, cant have a family gathering because vehicles aren’t allowed to park curbside, and if that’s them, good on ‘em, the very important thing is their neighbors house will maintain its value

 

No place is free of restrictions.  https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/walnutcove/latest/walnutcover_nc/0-0-0-3847#JD_Chapter156

 

[Rougarou]

43 minutes ago, John Ranalletta said:

 

No place is free of restrictions.  https://codelibrary.amlegal.com/codes/walnutcove/latest/walnutcover_nc/0-0-0-3847#JD_Chapter156

 

I live in the county on unrestricted property that regulation doesn’t apply to me, just to the boundaries of Walnut Cove. and yes there are limitations everywhere, yet at my maison, very few. 

[Scott9999]

6 hours ago, Rougarou said:

Our county website has a "road report" that you can submit a request to get a pot hole filled or other road damage corrected.  I've submitted a few potholes and they miraculously were repaired in fairly quick order.  

 

LOL, so while we're taking this thread in 100 different directions, I'll add my own 2 cents:

 

We have group mail boxes where our lake area house exists.  There are the old mailboxes, i.e. a string of old fashioned mailboxes on a covered shelf near the main road, and the "new" mailboxes like apartment style big square boxes with all the little ones inside, apparently installed by newer home owners on other roads up the mountains.  As a result, that "shelf" is now 2/3's empty.  We have the old style box, and next to our mailbox was left a package by Amazon or UPS, etc., addressed to a neighbor in one of the newer mailboxes.  The little roof protecting our mailboxes wasn't doing it for this box, and it was getting soaked.

 

To make a short story long ('tis my nature; sorry), I decided to drive up this dirt road that serves about a dozen houses to tell my neighbor that he/she has a package out at the mailboxes.  Now winter, the road is mostly mud with some snow.  I'm driving down this thing, and of course, the house is at the VERY end of this increasingly decrepit road.  I finally got to the end, saw the house, and it had no visible way of getting to it, i.e. stairs, steps, etc., it was near dark, and I didn't wanna get shot walking around someone's house in the dark, so I said "... to hell with it" and drove back DOWN that dang road.  (Edit: Now I know why the delivery men/women leave that houses boxes on the mail box stoop, i.e. they KNOW that road and they aren't crazy.)

 

As we are hitting pot old after pot hole on the return ride, I tell my wife, "What the heck, there are a dozen homeowners on this road, and NOT ONE OF THEM can buy a couple of sacks of gravel, and fill in these holes as they appear?!"   I have incredibly lazy neighbors.

 

People are just ... weird, I dunno.   (Oh, EXCEPT for all the fine people on THIS forum, who are even worse, 'cause they salivate over some German made motorcycle with a tractor transmission!  Even weirder!)  🤣🤣🤣🤣😂

[Rougarou]

2 hours ago, Scott9999 said:

LOL, so while we're taking this thread in 100 different directions, I'll add my own 2 cents:

 

We have group mail boxes where our lake area house exists.  There are the old mailboxes, i.e. a string of old fashioned mailboxes on a covered shelf near the main road, and the "new" mailboxes like apartment style big square boxes with all the little ones inside, apparently installed by newer home owners on other roads up the mountains.  As a result, that "shelf" is now 2/3's empty.  We have the old style box, and next to our mailbox was left a package by Amazon or UPS, etc., addressed to a neighbor in one of the newer mailboxes.  The little roof protecting our mailboxes wasn't doing it for this box, and it was getting soaked.

 

To make a short story long ('tis my nature; sorry), I decided to drive up this dirt road that serves about a dozen houses to tell my neighbor that he/she has a package out at the mailboxes.  Now winter, the road is mostly mud with some snow.  I'm driving down this thing, and of course, the house is at the VERY end of this increasingly decrepit road.  I finally got to the end, saw the house, and it had no visible way of getting to it, i.e. stairs, steps, etc., it was near dark, and I didn't wanna get shot walking around someone's house in the dark, so I said "... to hell with it" and drove back DOWN that dang road.  (Edit: Now I know why the delivery men/women leave that houses boxes on the mail box stoop, i.e. they KNOW that road and they aren't crazy.)

 

As we are hitting pot old after pot hole on the return ride, I tell my wife, "What the heck, there are a dozen homeowners on this road, and NOT ONE OF THEM can buy a couple of sacks of gravel, and fill in these holes as they appear?!"   I have incredibly lazy neighbors.

 

People are just ... weird, I dunno.   (Oh, EXCEPT for all the fine people on THIS forum, who are even worse, 'cause they salivate over some German made motorcycle with a tractor transmission!  Even weirder!)  🤣🤣🤣🤣😂

 

Mebbee you should gather the neighbors up and create a covenant and establish an HOA, that'll fix the road fo sho,........I'm sure they'd all be up for that

[Scott9999]

3 hours ago, Rougarou said:

 

Mebbee you should gather the neighbors up and create a covenant and establish an HOA, that'll fix the road fo sho,........I'm sure they'd all be up for that

No, this is IDAHO, not California.  They'd be polite and listen, then they'd shoot, shovel, and ~~~ quietly walk away.   

 

Actually, most of the newer home tracts out here all have HOA's as well, but I'm not living in those places. 

Ever!

 

I've done my HOA time, fought my battles, won more than I lost (actually, I don't think I lost any), and swore I'd never again by a home within an HOA again, once I left California.  To each their own.  I supported the HOA concept when I bought my first two homes, our dues were always very minimal, but in both cases, a certain type of person seemed to dominate the boards after a while, I had people snooping in my back yard.

 

Let me go a bit further on this.  While I was preparing to sell my home:

 

1) We painted it.  We sent in a request for approval, MONTH'S LATER, I couldn't wait any longer.   The Chairman of the Architectural board (who I knew personally) said that some members hadn't returned comment, and were holding the process up.  He personally approved it.  I hired painters.  They bought paint.  The day they were supposed to start painting the exterior, I got a formal notice that my request was disapproved, because one member thought the color of the paint on my front door varied from the "theme of the neighborhood".  I was so angry, I went to war.  I marched down to the Chairman's house and asked him face to face, "WTF?!!".  Well, towards the end of the day, it turns out that the board member missed the clearly circled and annotated colors on a chart I sent in, and picked out some outrageous red color on the BACK of the F***KING chart, and said "oops, I thought that was the color you had chosen.".   Months delay, my painters paid and standing around, all due to one women idiot on the board.

 

2) I had installed pavers in the front driveway, walkway, courtyard, etc., about 10 years prior.  I had also installed a custom made (milled, cut, and installed by MY OWN hands) scalloped white picket, wooden fence with 6x6" finished posts, and a 12"x12" set of front posts into the formal courtyard entrance.  It turned out well, and I received many compliments on the design and features.  Well, prior to sale, I pressure washed the pavers, added new sand and vibrated it back into the cracks, added a coat of glossy "wet" sealer, and it looked like new.   5 days later, right in the middle of the damn sale, I get a cease and desist order from the HOA's lawyers, requiring me to IMMEDIATELY remove the pavers, the fence, and other details (i.e. a fountain, etc.), as it was never submitted for approval to the architectural committee.  They also threated an immediate lien on the house to stop the sale (i.e. they knew it was on the market), if I did not immediately begin compliance (immediately, not a week, 10 days, etc.).   Again, I was steaming mad.   I dug out the papers (remember, we're packing for the move), made copies of the original application, pictures, APPROVALS TEN YEARS PRIOR, and all the rest, and fired it right back at them, threatening to sue the MF's for damages due to loss of the sale, and for targeted harassment.    

 

So, everyone's experiences differ.  Truthfully, you DO get the government you vote for, and no where else is that more true than in local government, and HOA's, where 90% of the people don't show for meetings, or bother to vote.

 

It's just not my cup of tea.  Those were the latest shots across the bow, before I had left.  There were other incidents over the years.  It seemed like any time someone new joined one of these committees, suddenly we had people going door to door, looking in yards, peering through windows, looking for some sort of imagined "violation".   (And, in fact, if you looked at THEIR homes, they were usually unimproved, cookie cutter trash.)

/end rant (...ah.. well, end rant for now  🙃😁)

[Hosstage]

We have a "compliance officer" in our neighborhood, unelected, unwanted, just a pain in everyone's ass, including the city's. He must send them a half dozen emails a week about some infraction, and I've heard from more than one official that they want no part of it, every now and then they get around to dealing with a minor issue. Our "HOA" is mostly in name only in order to keep our neighborhood lake access. No building or yard rules.

I sent in a bunch of magazine subscription requests with his name and address on them. He struck me as a Good Housekeeping sort of guy, just trying to help him out.

 

Geez this thread really has gone off the rails. Except I did mention subscriptions in my post...

[Rougarou]

Well the title is soon you wont own anything, kinda like a house under a HOA, that can put a lien on if you dont cut your grass regly’, and then seize it if you continue not to cut your grass, or rake your sand (in 29 Palms)

 

pretty soon theyll be folks that think that the TV they purchased should have all those streaming services unlocked, afterall, they “own” the physical medium for which these services are to be provided, thus should have all the options available

 

In reading on this, Toyota did seem to put it in the fine print of their connected services description so the issue is really with the buyer not fully reading what they were buying into, afterall, who really reads or fully questions those long sheets of yellow that are still spit out of a dot matrix printer

 

https://www.thedrive.com/news/43329/toyota-made-its-key-fob-remote-start-into-a-subscription-service

[Rinkydink]

1 hour ago, Rougarou said:

In reading on this, Toyota did seem to put it in the fine print of their connected services description so the issue is really with the buyer not fully reading what they were buying into, afterall, who really reads or fully questions those long sheets of yellow that are still spit out of a dot matrix printer

 

 

So next “they” can lock the brakes on your vehicle after a specific period of time unless you subscribe because they put it in the fine print? I know a bit extreme but this crap is getting out of hand. 

[Rougarou]

13 minutes ago, Rinkydink said:

So next “they” can lock the brakes on your vehicle after a specific period of time unless you subscribe because they put it in the fine print? I know a bit extreme but this crap is getting out of hand. 

Only if brakes are an option

 

i dont see this gig lasting. Others have done it and then rescinded 

[Hosstage]

I don't think paying for the option is the issue, I think constantly paying for the same option is the issue.

[Skywagon]

I am semi-open to the idea...IF... all vehicles equipped the same causes production and retail prices to be reduced greatly.  If for example the cost of my current ride was lowered by say $5000 new due to efficiency of parts, assembly, selling, etc...I might like that.  If the services were say $10/mo and I subscribed to 4 of them that would be $480/year.  The breakeven is slightly over 10 years.  If I take none then I am ahead.  Something tells me though retail price will not go down and service fees will just be added on....that I would not be in favor of.  Kind of like cutting the cord on TV.....will show them.  Cut the cable and add on streaming services and high-speed internet.  Pretty soon you are close to what you paid before and it's a lot harder to use.

[John Ranalletta]

Currently, my '15 auto unlocks when I touch the door handle or when using the FOB.  So, given there's no other way to unlock the door, who's to say a mfgr offers that on a subscription basis only or worse, turns the service off.

 I think the problem is letting mfgrs communicate with the cars to alter services after sale.

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, John Ranalletta said:

Currently, my '15 auto unlocks when I touch the door handle or when using the FOB.  So, given there's no other way to unlock the door, who's to say a mfgr offers that on a subscription basis only or worse, turns the service off.

 I think the problem is letting mfgrs communicate with the cars to alter services after sale.

 

You probably have a hard key in your fob,....might wanna check for that.....and this won't affect your 15' model year, 18's and newer

 

OnStar has been communicating with vehicles for years, and years.

[Rougarou]

1 hour ago, Skywagon said:

 Kind of like cutting the cord on TV.....will show them.  Cut the cable and add on streaming services and high-speed internet.  Pretty soon you are close to what you paid before and it's a lot harder to use.

 

We cut the cord and only use one streaming service that covers the channels that we watched while on cable or satellite.  Cut the charges by 'bout $100 a month, $1200 a year that could be funneled somewhere else.  Hulu has a guide and is very simple to use.

[Scott9999]

16 hours ago, Hosstage said:

 

 

Geez this thread really has gone off the rails. Except I did mention subscriptions in my post...

This is EXACTLY like our discussion would go, if we were all able to meet up at a local watering hole, and talk Beemers and everything else in the world.  (We'd all be a whole lot more sociable than on "social media", too.)

As long as the OP doesn't mind, I say, enjoy the ride (and the discussions).

🍻

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On 12/14/2021 at 12:05 PM, Rougarou said:

On star isnt free, its a service if you want, subscription based.

 

Sure, but that's a service they offer that requires staff on their end and cellular bandwidth to work.  There's nothing about unlocking your trunk that inherently requires anything more than a radio connection between the fob and the car.   Requiring a subscription for that is just rent-seeking, and yes, I hope the competition eats their lunch over it.

[Skywagon]

By the way if your vehicle is factory equipped with On-Star or the Lexus one, and you stop the subscription, it will still alert the center in the event of a crash. You just lose all other benefits. Love my On-Star full service

[Rougarou]

9 hours ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

 

Sure, but that's a service they offer that requires staff on their end and cellular bandwidth to work.  There's nothing about unlocking your trunk that inherently requires anything more than a radio connection between the fob and the car.   Requiring a subscription for that is just rent-seeking, and yes, I hope the competition eats their lunch over it.

 

If it's part of the entire suite of connected apps, isn't there staff that have to manage that software on the company end?  Or do apps and software just miraculously update and upgrade themselves.  As these vehicles get more intertwined with the "smart" world, stoopid stuff like this is going to happen and hopefully fail.

 

BTW, it's for remote start, not unlocking your truck, you can do that quite easily from under the vehicle.

 

 

Years ago, Jeep offered a 15 gallon tank on the Wrangler and a 20 gallon option.  It was the same tank, you just had to slightly modify the tank to get to the 20 gallons......an option, that was already on the vehicle.  Why Jeep went through the hassle of doing that, well, I guess profit played a part, I dunno.  Many options are already installed on the vehicle, you just gotta "tap" into them.

 

If Toyota continues down this path, I'm sure the pirate bay will have a hack for it.

 

 

 

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

On 12/15/2021 at 8:20 AM, Rougarou said:

i dont see this gig lasting. Others have done it and then rescinded 

 

Toyota's having a good long rethink about it:

 

Toyota 'Reviewing' Key Fob Remote Start Subscription Plan After Massive Blowback

[Skywagon]

1 hour ago, Joe Frickin' Friday said:

oyota's having a good long rethink

I read some of the comments by people saying too lazy to start your car.  I have been using remote start on my cars since 2007.  In the summer here it gets well over 100.  When the car/truck sits out in the sun for any time the inside temps can be well north of 140 degrees.  I start mine remote and let it cool about 5 minutes before I get in.  I use it a lot.

[John Ranalletta]

This entire video is worth a watch.  If you have kids using social apps on their smartphones, make them watch, too.

Snippet of video: