Lane positioning question

[beemerman2k]

APOLOGIES: I just now noticed the "Ride Well" category!  I looked for it but couldn't find it.  Moderators, if doable, mind moving this post to that forum?

 

Thanks!

Just noticing there's no more "Ride Safe" category.  Guess we weren't interested enough in riding safe :-)

 

OK, question on lane positioning:

 

You're riding on a highway, your lane is moving but the lane adjacent to you is not.  Let's make this simple; you're in the far left lane (#1 some call it), and your lane is moving--say 30 mph or so, but the lane to the right of you is stalled.  Now, you know and expect a car will eventually dart out into your lane FIRST, and look later, so that's something you're concerned about as you pass the long line of idle or slow moving vehicles.

 

OK, the question: where in your lane are you positioned?

 

- Far right, closest to the idle lane: this is so that you ensure they see you in their side view mirror and not dart out in front of you.  Visibility is the idea here.

 

- Far left, this ensures you're well positioned to avoid the vehicle that darts out into your lane, but given you aren't visible in their side view mirror, aren't you making it more likely they'll do so?

 

[TSConver]

What is on the left side of me?

[Hosstage]

Shoulder.

[Hosstage]

I'd be cheating left in the lane.

[TSConver]

Definitely left unless it is a jersey wall with no shoulder. 

[Groanup]

To the right of center. How far to the right depends on certain things. High beam on if it's daylight. That allows the people who DO use their mirrors to see you more easily while still leaving yourself some wiggle room for those who don't.

Staying left hides you from view behind the car in front of you.

Having typed that, 30 mph is a pretty significant speed differential. I wouldn't be following very close...

[szurszewski]

I think you are mistaken if you you think you're making yourself more visible by hugging the right side of the lane/keeping close to the stopped traffic. Maybe to one or two cars just ahead of you, but the further ahead of you a car is, the more being close to the stopped cars is just going to lump you in visually with them. 

 

Edit to clarify my first paragraph: I absolutely agree that being left AND following another vehicle closely would hide you from view for the stopped drivers; I am assuming we are being smart enough to leave LOTS of following distance to the extent that the car traveling in our lane ahead of us is not really an issue at all. 

 

So, in answer to your question, assuming I'm on some sort of divided roadway with either a median or center turn lane or whatever to my left, I would be at the left edge of my lane. I'd also have lots of following distance up ahead. And really, I would prefer not to be riding 30mph faster than a neighboring lane for very long at all. 

 

If there just a center line to the left of my lane and then oncoming traffic, I would be in the center of my lane to keep even space between the hazard of oncoming traffic and the hazard of the stopped cars. 

 

As an aside, best practice for sideview mirror setting in vehicles that also have a useable inside rearview mirror, as stated by the US authority for driver training for about twenty years now, has been wide ("out") enough to NOT see the sides of your own car in your outside mirrors. Of course, many if not most drivers are still setting the outside mirrors as your query assumes, but some folks will have them set so they'd see you in the center or left portion of your lane as well. 

 

 

[Groanup]

36 minutes ago, szurszewski said:

I think you are mistaken...

 

It's possible I guess.

The question was, "where in your lane are you positioned?" I'm not sure you can be mistaken when asked a "what would YOU do" question.

I stand by my answer. I don't believe I said that I hug the right side of the lane. I did say it depends on certain things. Things like whether the vehicle in front of me is a box truck, or a convertible. So many variables...

Where I ride (Southern California), there is nearly always a concrete wall to the left of the #1 lane, so escaping left is seldom an option.

YMMV.

 

[Lowndes]

Get in the stopped lane.

[Skywagon]

16 minutes ago, Lowndes said:

Get in the stopped lane.

I doubt the left will have sustained speed advantage. Slow down as 30 too fast to be passing stopped traffic. Keep a large distance as you will not be able to see objects in the road. For me I would probably get far left to give as much space possible to a car that came over. I would stand on the pegs occasionally to see why the block. What’s causing the block would influence whether I stayed in lane 1 or started moving right. I’m seldom in a hurry on my bike. 

[wbw6cos]

People that do check side mirrors only check their immediate surroundings  (think blind spot,) but never look down the road behind them to see what is approaching at 30mph; they just jump out of line and act as though nothing ever happened.   Even in a large commercial vehicle, it is easy to be hidden in that scenario.   

 

I tend to pick the path of least resistance. 

 

Me?  I get similar traffic conditions regularly and ALWAYS get a surprise on the bike.  It is expected.   What I do is try make myself as visible as possible, which includes various lane positions.. I refer to my Crazy Ivan maneuver and have a way out, which includes lane splitting.   

 

Thanks for asking.

[Hosstage]

I do agree that a 30 mph difference in speed is a lot in that circumstance. I would be slowing down, giving space to the car in front of me, and ready for a vehicle to cut in front of me at any time. And I would still cheat to the left of the lane, just off the grease strip, but not all the way left until it's necessary.

[dirtrider]

Morning  beemerman2k

 

A lot of depends on this one. For the most part I ride just left of center in my lane as I like to be seen as owning my lane. If I ride too far left the vehicles in the stopped lane seem to think they have a free pass to enter that free space to my right. 

 

Depending of what I am following & how far I can see ahead through the vehicle(s) I am following I will tighten right up on the vehicle in front of me as that usually means a vehicle darting into my lane sees me in front of them or directly on their left front fender.

 

Every once in a while I will have some yahoo pull into my lane anyhow but at 30-40 mph I just track with them as they come over & throttle around them on the far left.  Usually not a big deal & just part of crowded freeway travel in my area. 

 

But unfortunately most (crowded)  freeways in my area are 3, 4, or 5 lane & those can be troublesome to a motorcycle as it seems that the latest evolution is for the center lane (or lanes)  to be the fast lanes with an often found right lane very slow or stopped & the far left lane being the lazy asses that cruise along 10 mph under the speed limit reading a book, putting on makeup, or intense cell phone use. These drivers very seldom change lanes but more aggressive drivers caught in that lane are a potential  problem & are likely to make a non-cleared fast entry  into the faster center lane. 

 

So now we (motorcyclists) have to deal with the stopped (or very slow) right laners darting into our 30-40mph space but at the same time deal with the left laners doing the same thing. 

 

I still pretty well ride just  left of center but if it gets real bad with traffic flow varying from stopped to 85 mph then back to panic stopped I usually try to find a spot in traffic with a few see-through vehicles in front of me  (will clear out of lane if I end up following a truck or SUV that I can't easily see through then re-enter behind a few lower or see-through cars)  

[Hosstage]

Riding is fun!

[MikeB60]

I am defiantly not going to be in lane position 2 or the left side of lane position 3.  (think back to your MSF training!)  I am going to need some space to my front in this scenario and most assuredly someone from the stalled lane is going to want that space.  Would much prefer to have some additional reaction time rather the unlikely possibility that someone will see me in their rear view mirror that they most likely don't have adjusted properly in the first place.

 

Nothing really good in this situation, if you have to break hard, hopefully the ass hat following too close is paying attention.  Hopefully you have an escape route to the front and you better have a plan when someone does move from the stalled lane.  

[Rougarou]

To me, doesn't matter, I'm hugging the rear bumper of the car in front of me.......others may disagree, probably most will disagree, but it's worked for me in my time of riding from the DC beltway at rush hour through Atlanta riding..........local area, not much of a concern as it rarely happens.

[szurszewski]

7 hours ago, Groanup said:

 

It's possible I guess.

The question was, "where in your lane are you positioned?" I'm not sure you can be mistaken when asked a "what would YOU do" question.

I stand by my answer. I don't believe I said that I hug the right side of the lane. I did say it depends on certain things. Things like whether the vehicle in front of me is a box truck, or a convertible. So many variables...

Where I ride (Southern California), there is nearly always a concrete wall to the left of the #1 lane, so escaping left is seldom an option.

YMMV.

 

 

 

Don  - 

I tried to clarify my response to indicate that what I was disagreeing with was contained in the OP and not in your reply. Obviously I did not do a good job of that!

 

Specifically, I was disagreeing with this statement in the OP

12 hours ago, beemerman2k said:

you aren't visible in their side view mirror,

 

Of course, whether or not we're visible in anyone's mirror is largely irrelevant - while we can work to make it as easy as possible for other roadway users to see us, we all know we need to be positioned and prepared for those who do not even try to look for us. 

 

 

 

 

[Lowndes]

Dirtrider above covered it very well for me.  It "depends...", and everything else.

 

i.e. if they are stopped because of a stalled vehicle and the have to get out of that lane and the closer you get to the stall, the more cars will be taking/making an opportunity to get out of the stopped lane, watch out!!  Or, if they HAVE to be in that lane to make the exit, then the odds are much better for the left lane.  In Atlanta that would be exiting I-285 for GA400 (either way) between 3 and 7 PM (rush hour).

 

During years of running and bicycling on Atlanta city streets I found that being bold, or brash, or confident, as in "owing your lane" as someone mentioned above, is by far the best survival strategy.  Part of the "owning" is being visible, highly visible.  That for me on a mc is a modulating headlight and strobing brakelights.  If you worry those annoy some drivers, just think how annoyed they would be if they had to sit there for two hours and answer all the cop's questions if they ran over me.  You have to look at the bright side.  I would ride where the stopped lane could see me and be annoyed by my headlight.  Hey, they're annoying me just by being in cars and causing the mess.  If they were on bikes we'd all be buddies, no traffic jam, and I wouldn't have the modulator on.

 

The basic premise is that they really don't care if you live or die, but they damn sure don't want to get a scratch on their precious car, even if it's a 20 year old rust bucket junker.  The counterpoint to that is we are all hardwired to be intimidated by things bigger than us.  They will pull out in front of a bike but not a Greyhound.  "Yes officer, I saw him coming but it was only a motorcycle."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rob Nowell]

wow!  so, beemerman2k, did you get enough input?

[Groanup]

1 hour ago, szurszewski said:

Of course, whether or not we're visible in anyone's mirror is largely irrelevant - while we can work to make it as easy as possible for other roadway users to see us, we all know we need to be positioned and prepared for those who do not even try to look for us. 

 

Agreed.

Everyone has their own way of handling any situation. As long as yours works for you, it's good.

[beemerman2k]

Here’s what the left lane on the Mass Pike in Boston looks like, only today the middle lane is clear.  I took this picture from my car as part of a different discussion I was having on managing glare.

 

So, no escape to the left, so that’s not an option.

 

I never let myself be tailgated.  I’ll change lanes if that’s an option or make sure I’m riding “responsibly fast enough”.  If I am and they’re still on my tail, then I save the experience for my next “Ride Well” post :-)

 

I do ride closer to the vehicle in front of me, to the right or left side of the lane, only because leaving a big gap there invites cars to jump out in front of me.

 

I think my unscientific habit is: the slower the traffic the more likely I’m in the right portion of the lane, the faster then I’m on the left.  But I e often wondered what the group consensus is on the subject.

 

thanks for the excellent input!

[TSConver]

The best thing for tailgating is to slow down and give yourself plenty of room to brake without causing the tailgater to rearend you.  Most people refuse to do this and just ride faster tightening the gap with the vehicle they are following.

[szurszewski]

19 minutes ago, beemerman2k said:

So, no escape to the left, so that’s not an option.

I don’t know if the shoulder in your pic is typical or maybe a wider than usual spot, but in your picture there is PLENTY of room for a motorcycle to escape. 

[beemerman2k]

I wouldn’t describe it as plenty, not even with lower case letters.  Things go south and you gotta make do, but there’ll be definite spillover there.  It’s not wide at all, 2-3’ maybe?  Better than nothing, but very little room for error.

[szurszewski]

44 minutes ago, beemerman2k said:

I wouldn’t describe it as plenty, not even with lower case letters.  Things go south and you gotta make do, but there’ll be definite spillover there.  It’s not wide at all, 2-3’ maybe?  Better than nothing, but very little room for error.

In this situation we’re talking about how to prevent or deal with someone who moves from the stopped #2 lane into our moving #1 lane, and it looks like I’d have ample room to move over and possibly pass. 
 

Sure if there’s a crash or other such incident it might spill over and eliminate that area as a margin, but assuming the new addition to our lane actually stays in the lane and doesn’t keep moving left…

[dirtrider]

3 hours ago, beemerman2k said:

I wouldn’t describe it as plenty, not even with lower case letters.  Things go south and you gotta make do, but there’ll be definite spillover there.  It’s not wide at all, 2-3’ maybe?  Better than nothing, but very little room for error.

Afternoon beemerman2k

 

Obviously every rider has a different opinion on how much room they need but that would be plenty enough for me, I have had to squeeze into much narrower travel paths than that at WAY higher speeds than the 30-40mph we are talking about in this thread.  

 

But I might be biased as I will happily put my dirt bike down a curvy single tack goat path with trees & rocks on both sides at 60+ mph & grin the entire time.  

 

You usually have more room than you think as 99% of drivers have no idea where their wheels or fenders are so usually stay a foot or MORE off the fog line so you also gain that real-estate.

[Bill_Walker]

I'm with Groanup on this: I'd be in the right side of the lane, both so folks in the stopped lane know there's not a gap in my lane, and so I have better visibility on what the stopped lane people are doing.  I want to be able to see where those front wheels are pointed and whether the drivers are glancing to their left looking for an opening.

[Lowndes]

I am TOTALLY with Bill_Walker on the above.  Well said, Bill.

 

And, if you start leaving "plenty of distance" between you and the car in front of you, as in "one car length per 10 mph" or some such, around these parts, at 30 mph, you'll have four cars and a Volkswagen in that gap faster than a foton can exit a brake light bulb.

 

 

[dirtrider]

17 hours ago, Lowndes said:

I am TOTALLY with Bill_Walker on the above.  Well said, Bill.

 

And, if you start leaving "plenty of distance" between you and the car in front of you, as in "one car length per 10 mph" or some such, around these parts, at 30 mph, you'll have four cars and a Volkswagen in that gap faster than a foton can exit a brake light bulb.

 

 

Morning  Lowndes

 

Whatever a rider personally feels comfortable with.

 

Here is my (personal)  take on riding all the way right in lane__  That works IF you can see far enough ahead & the guy in the right lane turns his front wheels in advance of you getting there.  

 

The down side (& reason that I don't do that) is I don't look obvious or like I own (or am fully in) the lane in right-lane-vehicles side view mirror.  To a driver not specifically looking for a motorcycle that headlight far-right in lane looks way too much like an SUV left headlight poking out for a look-see.

 

But (to me anyhow) riding way right gives me zero chance to avoid the guy that suddenly turns his steering wheel & just darts into my lane. I'm just too far right to avoid that vehicle in time. 

 

By riding just left of center in my lane, even if a car quickly darts into my lane, I have that added time it takes him to reach center lane to start my avoidance & track with him to the left & around him.   

[Mike]

I dunno. Lots of sound analysis here, but I always try to think in terms of dynamic lane positioning, analyzing and adjusting my position from moment to moment to maximize my safety cushion, enhance visibility to others, and provide at least one option to maneuver from a potential collision.  

Honestly, I find that this makes the whole experience of riding in traffic more enjoyable and it keeps me engaged by forcing me to think continually. Others may be more comfortable with a formulaic approach, but I find that that type of riding makes me lazy and vulnerable.

 

Repeat these words: Dynamic Lane Positioning.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Mike said:

I dunno. Lots of sound analysis here, but I always try to think in terms of dynamic lane positioning, analyzing and adjusting my position from moment to moment to maximize my safety cushion, enhance visibility to others, and provide at least one option to maneuver from a potential collision.  

Honestly, I find that this makes the whole experience of riding in traffic more enjoyable and it keeps me engaged by forcing me to think continually. Others may be more comfortable with a formulaic approach, but I find that that type of riding makes me lazy and vulnerable.

 

Repeat these words: Dynamic Lane Positioning.

Afternoon Mike

 

To some extent I think  lot of us riders do that for one reason or another. Personally I will leave my fairly visibly &  predictable just-left-of-lane-center if I see a driver to my right  (especially if he is leading me a bit) looking around in his mirrors, or turning his head in as if looking-for-a-spot.

 

I will usually gas up just a bit then put my motorcycle right over on his L/H drivers window until I know for sure he/she sees me. 

 

I will do the same for someone that is far left of me by putting my motorcycle right on his  R/H fender until I'm sure he/she knows I'm there. 

 

There are definite reasons to wander in lane, like  to maybe peek up between the line of vehicles, or to get a view around the vehicle in front of me if I'm look for an upcoming exit sign, or possibly there is an interesting looking person in a vehicle. I have even been known to get up close to a vehicle in another lane that has a dog barking at me and bark back-- (yup, like you, for me it can also get boring at times)     

[TSConver]

For giggles tap their window when they are beside to make sure they know you are there.

[dirtrider]

6 minutes ago, TSConver said:

For giggles tap their window when they are beside to make sure they know you are there.

Afternoon TSConver

 

In some of the  places I ride that wouldn't get a grin that could easily induce gunfire.  

[TSConver]

4 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon TSConver

 

In some of the  places I ride that wouldn't get a grin that could easily induce gunfire.  

Lol I was joking. Could get you run over as well.

[wbw6cos]

Metro Atlanta comes to mind.

[JamesW]

Better yet just avoid ALL four lane limited access roads unless you are maybe in the middle of someplace like I94 east of Billings, MT.  

[wbw6cos]

4 minutes ago, JamesW said:

Better yet just avoid ALL four lane limited access roads ......

 

That is The Kinsley Mind-Set, I believe.    

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, wbw6cos said:

Metro Atlanta comes to mind.

Afternoon William

 

That could  probably be METRO anywhere  as of late.  

[szurszewski]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon William

 

That could  probably be METRO anywhere  as of late.  

I "liked" this post because it feels accurate, and I'm quoting it in this reply to explain that I don't actually "like" it at all :(

[wbw6cos]

True.

 

Back on topic though, a lot of folks have expressed similar ideas to my own; I just never really put much thought into it - just comes to me natrually.  Even on two lanes in the same direction (my commute) I tend to be in the same camp as folks that ride a portion of the lane for being noticed.   If one were to follow me on a commute, they would tend to label it as aggressive riding.  My thoughts about defensive driving is being offensive.     I mean, being on offense; taking charge of my surroundings to place me on offense and minimize the defensive thought process.   It is being defensive, but taking a pro-active approach on being a step ahead of other motorists.   I know human behavior in traffic is so unpredictable, but being close to 2.5 million accident free miles (1 million of those officially recognized) I have come to observe certain patterns which aid me in my defensive driving techniques.  I drive a big truck (and cannot lie) which always benefits me when I ride the bike.  OF course, I do a LOT of s**t on the bike that I cannot even dream of doing in a tractor-trailer, but I still look at ways to learn better riding.    This forum really gets me thinking about how others approach the questions like in this thread.  I formulate more ideas for being less-killable on the bike.

 

KUDOS for asking and answering, y'all!

[Hosstage]

Like you, and probably most here, I move around in the lane depending on the situation, including road condition.

My philosophy tends to offensively defensive riding.