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Paddler

I have posted on this topic over on the Wet Head page, but only own an Oilhead and the R1250RS.  I used Castrol for the 600 mile maintenance, but used Rotella T6 5W-40 yesterday at 4700 miles.  Anybody else use this oil?  It is MA-2 rated. 

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Dave_in_TX

The oil for the 1250 should meet API SL in addition to MA2. I don't think the latest Rotella meets SL.

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dirtrider
9 hours ago, Paddler said:

I have posted on this topic over on the Wet Head page, but only own an Oilhead and the R1250RS.  I used Castrol for the 600 mile maintenance, but used Rotella T6 5W-40 yesterday at 4700 miles.  Anybody else use this oil?  It is MA-2 rated. 

Morning  Paddler

 

Only riders that don't care about their BMW drivetrain or emission control warranty would even try to use that  Rotella T6 5W-40. It does seem to have an MA/MA2 rating but the Rotella T6 5W-40 is no longer (S) anything rated so  is not currently rated for your "gasoline engine"  R1250RS.

 

Let us know how it works out for you if you fail an alternator, or fail an o2 sensor, or fail an internal engine or transmission part?

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Rinkydink

Not flaming anyone but I don’t understand paying $25k for the bike and skimping on its lifeblood.
 

Sure, I want to save money as much as the next guy but catching the proper oil and filter on sale or by the case saves a good bit. I got a case of good old BMW oil for a Christmas present last year. Changing my oil myself costs me right at $75. Seems tolerable to me. I can spend that easily at a restaurant for my wife and I. I have one bike still under warranty so I use what I’m supposed to and keep detailed records. 

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Paddler

I don't mind being flamed, I bought an Aerostich Darien jacket and pants last year.  Not Nomex, but good stuff.:)  Everything is risk vs reward in this life.  As the T6 is MA-2, it's okay for the wet clutch.  The viscosity is right, so any cooling effect should not be compromised.  If it's good for extended use in diesel engines, I think it's good to go.  Here's an excerpt from the articled linked on page 3 of the thread over on the Wethead thread:

 

The additive packages for C (commercial) certification are designed to promote engine life. The additive packages for C rated oils contain extra buffers and detergents to keep the engine clean and free of acids. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic. Traditionally these oils are primarily used in diesel motors, which are very expensive and are expected to last a million miles or more. When an engine rebuild costs $10,000 - $15,000 and puts you out of work for a week or three, you don't mind paying a bit more for your oil. The C certification tests have been largely developed by Mack, Caterpillar, Detroit and Cummins to provide the additives necessary to keep these engines running a long time. The latest commercial certification is CI-4 Plus, which includes extra protection for high temperature high revving motors. Since it's designed for diesel motors, they don't care about no stinkin' catalytic thingies, and CAFE is a place where you get a cup of joe and a donut. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability. The shear stability is exactly what motorcycles need due to running the engine oil through the transmission.

 

Although C standards are changed every few years, the older standards are enhanced, not superceded. So, newer higher rated C oils are simply better than older lower rated oils.

 

I'm just averse to paying BMW dealer prices for the same or similar products.  The Rotella was $22, the Supertech 3614 filter was $3 (vs $14), so it cost $25 + tax.  The alternator belt I just replaced in my R1100R was $25 at the dealer, the Dayco was $8 at Autozone.  Oh, and I didn't pay $25K for the bike, either.  I got such a good deal the sales manager asked me to not share that information.  It really isn't so much the cost per se, as the difference is trivial.  I just don't believe in paying for Black Forest magic.  I'll keep the forum posted if I have any oil-related failures.  Leaving on a ~2000+ tour end of the month, so we'll see. 

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AZgman

On sale, Castrol Power 1 5w-40 oil that meets all BMW specs is $6/qt. Just sayin'

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Dave_in_TX
3 hours ago, Paddler said:

I don't mind being flamed, I bought an Aerostich Darien jacket and pants last year.  Not Nomex, but good stuff.:)  Everything is risk vs reward in this life.  As the T6 is MA-2, it's okay for the wet clutch.  The viscosity is right, so any cooling effect should not be compromised.  If it's good for extended use in diesel engines, I think it's good to go.  Here's an excerpt from the articled linked on page 3 of the thread over on the Wethead thread:

 

The additive packages for C (commercial) certification are designed to promote engine life. The additive packages for C rated oils contain extra buffers and detergents to keep the engine clean and free of acids. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic. Traditionally these oils are primarily used in diesel motors, which are very expensive and are expected to last a million miles or more. When an engine rebuild costs $10,000 - $15,000 and puts you out of work for a week or three, you don't mind paying a bit more for your oil. The C certification tests have been largely developed by Mack, Caterpillar, Detroit and Cummins to provide the additives necessary to keep these engines running a long time. The latest commercial certification is CI-4 Plus, which includes extra protection for high temperature high revving motors. Since it's designed for diesel motors, they don't care about no stinkin' catalytic thingies, and CAFE is a place where you get a cup of joe and a donut. CI-4 Plus differs from CI-4 with higher detergent requirements and better sheer stability. The shear stability is exactly what motorcycles need due to running the engine oil through the transmission.

 

Although C standards are changed every few years, the older standards are enhanced, not superceded. So, newer higher rated C oils are simply better than older lower rated oils.

 

I'm just averse to paying BMW dealer prices for the same or similar products.  The Rotella was $22, the Supertech 3614 filter was $3 (vs $14), so it cost $25 + tax.  The alternator belt I just replaced in my R1100R was $25 at the dealer, the Dayco was $8 at Autozone.  Oh, and I didn't pay $25K for the bike, either.  I got such a good deal the sales manager asked me to not share that information.  It really isn't so much the cost per se, as the difference is trivial.  I just don't believe in paying for Black Forest magic.  I'll keep the forum posted if I have any oil-related failures.  Leaving on a ~2000+ tour end of the month, so we'll see. 

Based on an email response a poster quoted on the advrider forum, Rotella currently contains too much phosphorus to carry an SL or later API rating. If you are not concerned about poisoning your catalytic converter or other parts of your emission  control system then continue using Rotella.

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Dave_in_TX
4 hours ago, Paddler said:

 

I'm just averse to paying BMW dealer prices for the same or similar products.  The Rotella was $22, the Supertech 3614 filter was $3 (vs $14), so it cost $25 .

 

Just because an oil filter fits, that by itself doesn't mean it is suitable. Flow rate and bypass valve pressure may or may not be correct.

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Rinkydink

Once my bikes go out of warranty I do (carefully)try to save $$$ on oil. One thing I don’t skimp on is the oil filter. BMW or Mahle only. I figure they’re worth it. 

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Paddler
3 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

Based on an email response a poster quoted on the advrider forum, Rotella currently contains too much phosphorus to carry an SL or later API rating. If you are not concerned about poisoning your catalytic converter or other parts of your emission  control system then continue using Rotella.

 

I found a post on BOB Is The Oil Guy from January 2021 stating that Rotella T6 now contains 900 PPM phosphorus vs the upper limit of 800PPM.  Doesn't sound like a big deal.  Supertech filters are made by Champion and meet all specifications for Harley, anyway.  They have an ADBV, which was one of my concerns.  The 3614 is longer than the BMW filter, so more filter surface area.

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dirtrider
20 minutes ago, Paddler said:

 

I found a post on BOB Is The Oil Guy from January 2021 stating that Rotella T6 now contains 900 PPM phosphorus vs the upper limit of 800PPM.  Doesn't sound like a big deal.  Supertech filters are made by Champion and meet all specifications for Harley, anyway.  They have an ADBV, which was one of my concerns.  The 3614 is longer than the BMW filter, so more filter surface area.

Evening Paddler

 

The 3614 is longer than the BMW filter, so more filter surface area.-- Not necessarily, a large number of longer filter cans still use the same short internal filter element. You need to cut them open to verify. You will probably find a short internal element. Plus cheaper filters usually have a less pleats or folds so the internal filter media is usually shorter. 

 

You also don't know the internal by-pass valve position or opening pressure. The BMW engines flow a lot of oil so if the internal by-pass valve  isn't set high enough you continually run oil through the by-pass valve & THAT oil is unfiltered. 

 

But you are saving a couple of dollars on the cheap filter so that saved money might help if you have future engine damage. 

 

But as mentioned in the other thread--  It's your engine & your motorcycle so do what YOU think is best. But  there is no reason to post it here as we really don't care if you cheap out on the oil & filter most or us won't use the incorrect oil & a non approved filter on a high dollar BMW motorcycle, especially while still under warranty. 

 

It more sounds like you are here looking for some sort of validation for using cheap non approved products on your BMW motorcycle, I seriously doubt you will find many here that will do or agree with that. 

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WBinDE

If you don't want to pay dealer prices for BMW-branded oil & filters there's always Beemer Boneyard, they'll sell you a kit - MA2-compliant oil, OEM-quality filter, & crush washer - for $62.

 

As far as Rotella T-6, I'd have no problems using it. MANY people have used it with no problems. I know Goldwing people (probably others) put hundreds of thousands of miles on their bikes with regular changes of T-6. People can really drive themselves nuts over identifying the one specific perfect oil (hence the bazillions of oil threads) but bottom line is that any oil is better than no oil, the "wrong" oil won't damage your bike if you leave it in until the next oil change.

 

It's well known that often the cheapest part of a BMW is the owner. And I think by now most everyone knows that trying to justify having a motorcycle "because it'll save money" is simply delusional.

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Paddler

I'm comfortable with the Rotella T6.  As far as the filter goes, the filter material is ~2" wide with pretty tight pleats, and stretched out measures 46.5" long.  The filter material is wider than the entire Mahle filter housing.  It's also a "high flow" filter, whatever that means.  Thank you for your input, I'll post up if I have any problems.  Doubt you'll hear much from me going forward.  

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realshelby
13 hours ago, WBinDE said:

 

As far as Rotella T-6, I'd have no problems using it. MANY people have used it with no problems. I know Goldwing people (probably others) put hundreds of thousands of miles on their bikes with regular changes of T-6.

There was a time that Shell Rotella T-6 met every BMW specification for use in Wethead engines. There was some concern/discussion over the JASO specs. The Shell engineer I talked with said it met the JASO specs, and in fact directed me to that product data sheet showing that to be true. In his words Shell wasn't after the JASO market and didn't commit to the testing procedure required to label it as such. It DID meet the SAE specs.

It no longer meets SAE specs. Which is far more important than JASO specs for the engine. There is a newer formulation.

I used to run T-6. But I no longer run T-6 even though I am many years out of warranty. It is NOT the same as it was. 

I do not run BMW oil. Actually run Liqui-Moly. I have had it tested twice, once at 7,000 miles and it was good for at least a couple thousand more miles. Very low wear rates. Good enough for me...and for BMW as it meets all specs. 

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Dave_in_TX
21 hours ago, Paddler said:

 

I found a post on BOB Is The Oil Guy from January 2021 stating that Rotella T6 now contains 900 PPM phosphorus vs the upper limit of 800PPM.  Doesn't sound like a big deal.  Supertech filters are made by Champion and meet all specifications for Harley, anyway.  They have an ADBV, which was one of my concerns.  The 3614 is longer than the BMW filter, so more filter surface area.

That conflicts with information in an email from Shell about the latest formulation of T6 that was shared by a poster on advrider.com (Feb 2019) which stated "Rotella T6 5W-40 have 1100 ppm of phosphorus". A previous formulation of T6 did contain 900 ppm. This was probably the previous SL rated formulation since SL allows 900 ppm.

 

The 1250 is fine with 900 ppm but 1100 is too much. However, it's not something that's going to immediately cause harm but could cause problems many thousands of miles later. Phosphorus buildup on O2 sensors and in catalytic converters takes time.

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Ponch

IDK. After seeing failure of the DLC(diamond like coating) on BMW LC boxer cams, I would use the advantec until the warranty was out for sure. There's a whole thread about the cam failures on the MOA forum. I'd use a BMW filter or the Mahle one as Mahle makes the filters for BMW.  Again, while under warranty. If it takes a dump then, I can just say ¯\_()_/¯

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92Merc

The sad part is BMW says to not use oils with molybdenum.  And yet the recommended Castrol has it.  And ironically, the Liquid-Moly doesn't have any.

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Paddler

 

9 hours ago, Dave_in_TX said:

That conflicts with information in an email from Shell about the latest formulation of T6 that was shared by a poster on advrider.com (Feb 2019) which stated "Rotella T6 5W-40 have 1100 ppm of phosphorus". A previous formulation of T6 did contain 900 ppm. This was probably the previous SL rated formulation since SL allows 900 ppm.

 

The 1250 is fine with 900 ppm but 1100 is too much. However, it's not something that's going to immediately cause harm but could cause problems many thousands of miles later. Phosphorus buildup on O2 sensors and in catalytic converters takes time.

 

Thanks, Dave.  This is more complicated than it need be because it's difficult to get information from the manufacturers about their additive packages.  Rotella T6 apparently now meets Ford diesel specs because it has more phosphorus.  However, the T6 container in my garage says that it's "compatible with emission control systems", whatever that means.  Here's a report showing that T6 5W40 has 1024PPM phosphorus, well above the 800PPM limit:

 

https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/threads/shell-rotella-t6-5w40-cj-4-sm-vs-ck-4.274955/#post-4490450

 

That said, my oil consumption for 4000 miles was less than 1/2 quart.  Since phosphorus contamination is a dose-related phenomenon, it's not clear to how much of a risk one incurs to a CC riding 4K miles/year with an oil that has 25% more phosphorus than allowed and consuming <.5 quarts/year.  I'll switch back to the Castrol next oil change, though, unless Shell says something different.

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dirtrider
Quote

However, the T6 container in my garage says that it's "compatible with emission control systems", whatever that means

Morning Paddler

 

Seeing as the new Rotella T6 doesn't have an (S)  rating that would probably have to pertain to Diesel (C)  emission control systems.

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Paddler
2 hours ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Paddler

 

Seeing as the new Rotella T6 doesn't have an (S)  rating that would probably have to pertain to Diesel (C)  emission control systems.

 

That was my thought as well.

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realshelby

Diesels have FAR more complicated emission systems. 

 

I am going to try to clean the #2 NOx aftertreatment sensor and dosing valve on the motorhome today. New sensor is $564. 16K miles...but sits around. Nothing to lose by trying to clean it first, seems some have success. 

 

What I am getting at is that oil has a LOT more responsibilities in an engine today than it did 30 years ago......

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Dave_in_TX
16 hours ago, 92Merc said:

The sad part is BMW says to not use oils with molybdenum.  And yet the recommended Castrol has it.  And ironically, the Liquid-Moly doesn't have any.

Part of the problem is ambiguous information from BMW and when someone asks for clarification, all they do is repeat the ambiguous statements.

 

It's possible the molybdenum warning only refers to additives added by the user and not the additive pack used by the oil manufacturer.

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92Merc
59 minutes ago, Dave_in_TX said:

Part of the problem is ambiguous information from BMW and when someone asks for clarification, all they do is repeat the ambiguous statements.

 

It's possible the molybdenum warning only refers to additives added by the user and not the additive pack used by the oil manufacturer.

Probably true.  But that would mean no moly is probably better than some moly.

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Dave_in_TX
1 hour ago, 92Merc said:

Probably true.  But that would mean no moly is probably better than some moly.

There are different moly compounds. Some of them can react to form acid. MSO2 is a common over the counter oil additive but it's rarely used now as part of an oils additive pack. Moly is an antiwear additive often used to compensate for lower levels of zinc and phosphorus.

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Paul De
On 4/18/2021 at 3:20 PM, Dave_in_TX said:

Part of the problem is ambiguous information from BMW and when someone asks for clarification, all they do is repeat the ambiguous statements.

 

It's possible the molybdenum warning only refers to additives added by the user and not the additive pack used by the oil manufacturer.

This topic was kicked around pretty hard on the Waterhead thread. Specifically there was (continues) to be confusion of molybdeum disallowed statement in their  oil specification.  The crux of the question was to not have any or just no third party molybdenum additives being disallowed.  The discussion raged because BMW's own recommended oil and virtually all API SL and SN rated oils uses molybdenum to replace ZDDP which can poison the catylitic converters.  The first sentence of BMW's response was essentially the stock language found in the owners manual, but then this representative added a closing statement that was more absolute about no molybdenum because it is bad for their motor.  So the continued confusing statement from BMW and conflicting oil data made this a WTF dog chase tail moment for me.

 

My take away from the other thread was while under warranty I would stick with BMW branded oil and filters.  Out of warranty, do what you want, but I will use the BMW or Mahle equivalent oil filter and a quality API SL/SN JASO MA/MA2 rated oil.  I have recently used up my last supply of BMW Advantec Ultimate 5W-40 (Shell oil) and now am using Liqui Moly 4T synthetic 5W-40.

 

YRMV

 

 

FYI

Posted by BrianM 9-3-2019 -Wethead - Experimenting with Oil Thread

On 9/3/2019 at 7:24 PM, BrianM said:

Received reply from BMW. It seems ANY molybdenum is bad. Make sure any oil does not have any molybdenum.

 

Their reply:

 

Dear Brian,

Thank you for contacting BMW Motorrad USA regarding oil for your 2018 BMW R 1200 GS Adventure.

BMW recommends using BMW Motorrad ADVANTEC Ultimate Oil with a viscosity of 5W-40. The use of additives is prohibited. Additionally, any molybdenum-based substances can damage coatings on engine components.

Should you have additional questions, the service team at your authorized BMW Motorrad dealer has the expertise and knowledge to further assist you.  For your reference, a list of our authorized BMW Motorrad dealers can be found on our website: www.bmwmotorcycles.comunder the "Find a Dealer" link.  

For your convenience, the BMW Motorrad Customer Relations and Services Department is available Monday through Thursday from 9:00 a.m. to 9:00 p.m. ET and Friday from 9:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. ET. You can reach us at 1-800-831-1117.

Thank you again for taking the time to write to us.

Regards,

Cameron Wagner
BMW Motorrad USA
Representative

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Dave_in_TX

If I had received that response from BMW I would asked why Advantec  contains molybdenum if any use is harmfull.

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Rougarou

T6 was used for the 14k I had the HP4, T6 has been used for over 100k on the RT (I did use Amsoil prior to starting T6), and T6 is being used on the 19 GSA since after the 600 mile freebie.  Filters, whatever I can find frugally, most times its hiflo filters

 

I'll roll the dice and YMMV.

 

 

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WBinDE
On 4/17/2021 at 10:13 AM, realshelby said:

There was a time that Shell Rotella T-6 met every BMW specification for use in Wethead engines. There was some concern/discussion over the JASO specs. The Shell engineer I talked with said it met the JASO specs, and in fact directed me to that product data sheet showing that to be true. In his words Shell wasn't after the JASO market and didn't commit to the testing procedure required to label it as such. It DID meet the SAE specs.

It no longer meets SAE specs. Which is far more important than JASO specs for the engine. There is a newer formulation.

I used to run T-6. But I no longer run T-6 even though I am many years out of warranty. It is NOT the same as it was. 

I do not run BMW oil. Actually run Liqui-Moly. I have had it tested twice, once at 7,000 miles and it was good for at least a couple thousand more miles. Very low wear rates. Good enough for me...and for BMW as it meets all specs. 

 

Thanks, I did some research based on your input. In a nutshell, diesel oils (T-6, for example) have higher detergent levels and higher ZDDP levels than gas oils. The higher detergent level is needed because diesels are inherently dirtier than gas engines. The detergent will clean the oil off the cylinder walls leading to greater wear; diesel oils is offset this by increasing the ZDDP levels as well as utilizing the fact that diesel fuel itself has some lubricating properties. Catalytic converters in diesel systems are designed to handle the combustion products of ZDDP (which include zinc that poisons the cat) but gasoline systems are not. 

 

So the current product is "not your father's T-6" and I shouldn't use it - noted. But would if I had to, though. My mantra is:

  • Any oil is better than no oil
  • Clean oil is better than dirty oil
  • The right oil is better than the wrong oil.

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Paddler

Interesting discussion, made more confusing by BMW's stance, whatever it may be, on molybdenum.

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realshelby

Might want to do more research on oil detergent additives cleaning the oil off the cylinder walls!  I don't think diesel catalytic converters are much different...or the car manufacturers would use that same tech in their gasoline emission devices! Any metal compound in the combustion gasses can ruin a converter. It coats the delicate surface of the substrate. 

 

 

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dirtrider
10 hours ago, realshelby said:

Might want to do more research on oil detergent additives cleaning the oil off the cylinder walls!  I don't think diesel catalytic converters are much different...or the car manufacturers would use that same tech in their gasoline emission devices! Any metal compound in the combustion gasses can ruin a converter. It coats the delicate surface of the substrate. 

 

 

Morning Terry

 

There are different types of diesel cat converters but none are exactly like gasoline engine cat converters.  Passenger vehicle Diesels don't use 3-way cat converters as they handle the NOx  in a different way. Diesel cats also have to deal with soot so there is usually some type of soot or particle trap. But the differences have noting to do with dealing with more ZDDP. 

 

Gasoline engines can be operated in closed loop so can run just above stochiometric using closed loop & o2 sensors. This works well with a 3-wy cat that can also handle NOx.

 

With diesels being a compression ignition they can't be run in any type of controllable closed loop so their cats need to trap & store oxygen from the exhaust stream under lean conditions. Most systems also require that darn urea diesel fluid & most emission equipped diesels also rely  on lots of EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation). 

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realshelby

Well written DR! My point was simply NO converter likes heavy metal compounds sticking to it!

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tbrown
On 4/16/2021 at 5:42 PM, Paddler said:

 

I found a post on BOB Is The Oil Guy from January 2021 stating that Rotella T6 now contains 900 PPM phosphorus vs the upper limit of 800PPM.  Doesn't sound like a big deal.  Supertech filters are made by Champion and meet all specifications for Harley, anyway.  They have an ADBV, which was one of my concerns.  The 3614 is longer than the BMW filter, so more filter surface area.

 

Phosphorus is bad for cats.   Gunked up cats not only don't clean the exhaust, but they don't flow as well.    What's the red-line on a Harley?   5500?

 

The shift-cam, I believe, uses oil pressure to operate.   I've had wet clutch issues with Aprilias using synth that's too slippery.   Back in the oilhead days, too slick oil was a problem for some bearing in the bottom end.    My point here is that Rotella may be "better" but better for what?    Like others here, I think paying 25 grand for a vehicle and then trying to save a few bucks on the oil really shows bad math skills.    Buy the right oil.  Save money changing yourself and documenting...Save the receipt for the oil.    

 

You just have no way of knowing why BMW picked this stuff instead of some other stuff.   Lots going on in these engines that don't apply to diesels.   I'm not knocking Rotella oils.  They're a great value and good stuff but phosphorus is off.  That means trouble for Cats...maybe other stuff too over time.   If i'm keeping the bike, I will use BMW oil.   If I'm going to trade for the next new thing, maybe it won't break until it belongs to someone else.   I don't think that's a very ethical.    

 

 

 

 

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