02' 1150RT Clutch Concern

[Alba]

I was preparing to replace the front brake hoses when I checked the clutch fluid level and its below the min level. The riders manual says have the clutch system checked immediately.  I'm trying to gauge how worried I should be including potential cost to fix.  I've searched this forum & I think clutch refurbishment is pushing my DIY mechanic skills.  Is it acceptable to top up the fluid and monitor if the fluid drops to indicate what the issue could be?

 

Any guidance would be appreciated.

[dirtrider]

37 minutes ago, Alba said:

I was preparing to replace the front brake hoses when I checked the clutch fluid level and its below the min level. The riders manual says have the clutch system checked immediately.  I'm trying to gauge how worried I should be including potential cost to fix.  I've searched this forum & I think clutch refurbishment is pushing my DIY mechanic skills.  Is it acceptable to top up the fluid and monitor if the fluid drops to indicate what the issue could be?

 

Any guidance would be appreciated.

Morning Alba

 

Big worry. Your clutch master cylinder reservoir actually gains fluid level as the clutch wears so a low fluid level usually points to a leak. 

 

That leak is usually at the slave cylinder piston  that  leaks into, then onto, the clutch disk & ruins the expensive-to-replace clutch.

 

You need to check for slave cylinder leakage into the cavity in front of the slave cylinder pretty quickly (before any chance of clutch damage). 

 

You will probably need a new slave cylinder (or a least a verification that it isn't leaking).

 

At replacement time you should  either drill a drain hole in the transmission housing to allow any future leakage to drain out before ruining the clutch (kind of technical as it is easy to drill that hole into the trans seal area & cause major problems).

 

Or just slot the bottom of the slave cylinder gasket (about 3mm wide slot)  to allow future clutch fluid  leakage to drip out.  

 

 

[Alba]

Appreciated as ever dirtrider. Do you know of a YT or online instruction that would guide me through checking/ replacing?

[dirtrider]

1 minute ago, Alba said:

Appreciated as ever dirtrider. Do you know of a YT or online instruction that would guide me through checking/ replacing?

Morning Alba

 

There probably is but I don't view those things as I usually have my own trusted ways of doing things (the internet has some good info but also has a lot of incorrect info).

 

Problem with the slave cylinder on the 1150RT is the very limited access, how you get to it & remove it depends on what tools you have available, how large your hands are, is the motorcycle on the floor or on a motorcycle lift, etc.

 

 

[Alba]

4 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

(the internet has some good info but also has a lot of incorrect info)

Very true ...

[Alba]

The research I have undertaken to replace the slave cylinder has included removal of the rear shock.  From where I am at now, see below, I think I only need to remove the rear exhaust system to gain access.  Cutting of the exhaust clamp looks like a pain in the a33. I'm taking it steady as this is new territory for me and may help others in the future.

 

Would others agree that the rear exhaust system removal would give me the necessary access?

 

 

Not touched in 19years:

 

[dirtrider]

17 hours ago, Alba said:

The research I have undertaken to replace the slave cylinder has included removal of the rear shock.  From where I am at now, see below, I think I only need to remove the rear exhaust system to gain access.  Cutting of the exhaust clamp looks like a pain in the a33. I'm taking it steady as this is new territory for me and may help others in the future.

 

Would others agree that the rear exhaust system removal would give me the necessary access?

 

 

 

Not touched in 19years:

 

 

Afternoon Alba

 

 Removing the muffler/cat  will give you way more rear access so I usually remove it completely.

 

 

[Lowndes]

Alba,

 

Sorry, don't have any vids of the slave cyl replacement but I do have a bunch of pics of a possibly similar bike.  I have a  '99 R1100S that had a leaking slave cyl.   I understand the R1100S engine/trans has a lot in common with the 1150 engine/trans so this could possibly give you an idea of what you're looking for.

 

Depending on how much DOT4 fluid has got to the clutch already you MIGHT be able to save the clutch (and a big job of replacing the clutch).  DON'T TOUCH the clutch lever (it will only pump more fluid to the clutch) until you can remove the slave cyl.

 

The DOT4 fluid quickly destroys the clutch friction material and the clutch starts slipping badly.  You MIGHT be able to get to the slave cyl by removing the rear wheel and any rear wheel fender.

 

These pics are of the rear of the trans looking forward with the rear wheel removed: https://photos.app.goo.gl/hLx3aDewWaoUyiD33

 

That's the slave cyl with the two banjo fittings on top of it.  There are three phillister head (hex socket) screws holding the cyl in place, one is behind the frame cross-bar in the pic. If you have enough room between the rear of the slave cyl and any frame members to remove the cyl, you're in luck.  Dirtrider might know if that's possible on your bike.  The braided hose going off to the right ends with a bleeder valve.  Drain as much DOT4 out of the system as you can from your bleeder before loosening the banjos.  There is normally some minimal spring pressure from the clutch thru the clutch rod to the slave cyl.  

 

 

These are pics of my leaking slave cyl and replacement of the clutch.  I really, really hope you don't have to do all that.  Basically you start at the license plate removing screws and bolts and stop when you get to the crankshaft.  https://goo.gl/photos/QEN3xyQVWXW1jraT6

 

This is the "socket" the slave cyl fits into on the rear of the trans.  The seal on the end of the hollow shaft (trans input shaft, rear end) has been soaking in DOT4 and should be replaced "while you're there".  I drilled a 1/16 in hole from about the 7 o'clock in to the bottom of the opening as close to the trans as possible to provide an easy escape for future DOT4 leaks.  Cheap insurance.  Not sure why BMW didn't see fit to provide a weep hole.

 

 

 

Hey - Please let us know how it's going and POST some PICS!!

 

As the say around here, "Without pics, it didn't happen."

 

[Alba]

Thanks Lowndes, you have collated a few photos of your strip down. 

 

I have a couple of questions;

- Is it the housing which is drilled at 7 o'clock?

- Is "The seal on the end of the hollow shaft" in this housing?

 

[Alba]

Todays work:

Remove the muffler/ cat and remove rear shock

 

> the exhaust clip was so corroded I had to cut the clamp off

 

 

> next remove the muffler/ cat , this took a good while, moving the exhaust up/ down & left/ right while pulling eventually came off

 

 

> next remove the  height adjusting mechanism allowing the bolt for the shock to be removed

 

 

> next remove the rear shock, this needed to be done to gain access to the slave cylinder hex bolts.  Once I got the swing arm supported and the right height the top bolt came out easy, the bottom bolt was easy to come out but the shock need some persuasion from the top to move.  Post removal I used sand paper to remove corrosion.

 

 

> now I have access to the slave cylinder bolts with a T allen key with a flexible end

 

 

 

Now my questions are:

1. How to I bleed the clutch circuit?  Do I open the bleed line valve then depress the clutch lever, close the valve, release the lever and repeat.

2. Is there enough flex in the banjo lines to attach the new slave cylinder while I'm crawling underneath the bike?

 

I hope this helps others thinking about attempting this repair.

[dirtrider]

47 minutes ago, Alba said:

Todays work:

Remove the muffler/ cat and remove rear shock

 

> the exhaust clip was so corroded I had to cut the clamp off

 

 

 

> next remove the muffler/ cat , this took a good while, moving the exhaust up/ down & left/ right while pulling eventually came off

 

 

 

> next remove the  height adjusting mechanism allowing the bolt for the shock to be removed

 

 

 

> next remove the rear shock, this needed to be done to gain access to the slave cylinder hex bolts.  Once I got the swing arm supported and the right height the top bolt came out easy, the bottom bolt was easy to come out but the shock need some persuasion from the top to move.  Post removal I used sand paper to remove corrosion.

 

 

 

> now I have access to the slave cylinder bolts with a T allen key with a flexible end

 

 

 

 

Now my questions are:

1. How to I bleed the clutch circuit?  Do I open the bleed line valve then depress the clutch lever, close the valve, release the lever and repeat.

2. Is there enough flex in the banjo lines to attach the new slave cylinder while I'm crawling underneath the bike?

 

I hope this helps others thinking about attempting this repair.

Afternoon Alba

 

You kind of have to figure out what works for you with your tools, your hand size, &  your dexterity. 

 

I usually try to fill as much of the slave as I can before installation. 

 

I have attached the lines before sliding the slave all the way in (it's a fight getting it in there then), I have installed the lines after slave is installed (slave goes in easier but the lines are much more difficult to attach).

 

As for bleeding, you can pump & cycle the bleed screw, you can use a long bleeder hose then terminate the hose inside  jar or bottle under the fluid line in the jar then just pump away (works like a speed bleeder).

 

I have pre-bled at the slave banjo bolts (makes final bleeding easier).

 

I have even reverse bled (forcing fluid IN through the bleed screws the UP through the lines to the master cylinder (this is how the factory does it).

 

The good thing is: once you get enough bled to allow clutch operation then the air will usually work it's way back up the line as you use the clutch up into the master cylinder reservoir & sort of self bleed. (all except the clutch bleed hose as that air usually stays in the hose until you bleed the remote bleed screw there.     

[The Fabricator]

     

 

I replaced the BMW bleed valve  with a conventional bleed valve.

Drilling a drain hole is dodgy.  I did it with a long bit and good eye ball aiming.

I am not aware of any tooling that will allow drilling a drain hole from the rear.  Probably exists. Cut the gasket and/or file a channel at that location.

 

    

[Alba]

Another quick question .... From the BMW motor works website there is a difference between the 1150R and 1150RT exhaust clamp, are they interchangeable? The RT clamp is twice the price of the R.

 

 

 

1150R

 

1150RT

 

[dirtrider]

4 hours ago, Alba said:

Another quick question .... From the BMW motor works website there is a difference between the 1150R and 1150RT exhaust clamp, are they interchangeable? The RT clamp is twice the price of the R.

 

 

 

1150R

 

1150RT

 

Afternoon Alba

 

I don't know as the U.S. 1150R bikes don't use a clamp like your shown top clamp. 

 

What size is that top clamp? You need a 50mm clamp for your 1150RT.

 

The 18211341478 clamp (bottom clamp shown in picture above) should be the correct 50mm clamp for your 1150RT.

[Alba]

40 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Alba

 

I don't know as the U.S. 1150R bikes don't use a clamp like your shown top clamp. 

 

What size is that top clamp? You need a 50mm clamp.

 

The 18211341478 clamp (bottom clamp shown in picture above) should be the correct 50mm clamp.

 

Unfortunately the website does not give a size for the top clamp.

 

Cheers

[dirtrider]

4 minutes ago, Alba said:

 

Unfortunately the website does not give a size for the top clamp.

 

Cheers

Afternoon Alba

 

Seeing as you live in a metric world any chance a local auto parts store would have a 50mm band clamp? 

[Alba]

1 hour ago, dirtrider said:

Afternoon Alba

 

Seeing as you live in a metric world any chance a local auto parts store would have a 50mm band clamp? 

 

Thanks for confirming I don't need the BMW specific clamp, I'm sure I'll be able to source a 50mm clamp.

[dirtrider]

26 minutes ago, Alba said:

 

Thanks for confirming I don't need the BMW specific clamp, I'm sure I'll be able to source a 50mm clamp.

Afternoon Alba

 

Just make sure it is a band clamp & not a "U" type muffler clamp. 

 

 

[Michaelr11]

4 hours ago, Alba said:

Another quick question .... From the BMW motor works website there is a difference between the 1150R and 1150RT exhaust clamp, are they interchangeable? The RT clamp is twice the price of the R.

 

I don't know what parts catalog you are checking.  The top photo looks like a fuel injection hose clamp.  The 1150R takes a 45 mm diameter exhaust clamp.  The 1150RT uses a 50 mm diameter exhaust clamp.  In the Max BMW parts fiche, I believe they are both the same price - different part numbers.

 

18 21 1 341 478     CLAMP - D=50  

 18 11 7 653 274     CLAMP - D=45

[dirtrider]

https://yambits.co.uk/stainless-steel-exhaust-clamp-47mm-p-22991.html

1 hour ago, Alba said:

 

Thanks for confirming I don't need the BMW specific clamp, I'm sure I'll be able to source a 50mm clamp.

Evening Alba

 

That top clamp looks like a 43-47mm exhaust clamp (non BMW). Too small for your 1150RT. 

 

https://yambits.co.uk/stainless-steel-exhaust-clamp-47mm-p-22991.html

[Alba]

Well it looks like the clutch fluid has not been changed in a while, after draining the reservoir below is the residue collected.

 

 

Took me an age to remove the banjo bolt from the reservoir on the slave, the access is awful.  Below is what the slave cylinder looks like

 

 

I have been cleaning out the housing and it's pretty dirty

 

 

Can I flood the housing with WD40 or brake fluid cleaner? What would be the best method to clean the housing?

[spacewrench]

That looks like my R1100S slave cylinder that failed recently.  One of the "bad sign" telltales was that the clutch fluid smelled terrible -- I think it may have been the molybdenum in the bearing of the slave cylinder (which had failed and allowed the clutch fluid to leak out).

 

If you do replace the slave cylinder, and you use a new one from Beemer Boneyard, then you may encounter the same thing that happened to me: the old cylinder has rounded edges all over, so I was able to remove it without removing the rear frame of the bike.  (The service manual says you have to disconnect the frame and move it back 5mm to remove the slave cylinder, but that wasn't true in my case.) HOWEVER, the new slave cylinder had nice, sharp, CNC-machined edges all around.  And those extra fractional millimeters were just enough to keep me from reinstalling the replacement cylinder -- I couldn't rotate / twist / shift it enough to get it into the receptacle.  So I ended up removing the rear frame anyway.  YMMV.

[dirtrider]

50 minutes ago, Alba said:

Well it looks like the clutch fluid has not been changed in a while, after draining the reservoir below is the residue collected.

 

Took me an age to remove the banjo bolt from the reservoir on the slave, the access is awful.  Below is what the slave cylinder looks like

 

I have been cleaning out the housing and it's pretty dirty

 

Can I flood the housing with WD40 or brake fluid cleaner? What would be the best method to clean the housing?

Afternoon Alba

 

By housing are you referring to the rear hole on the transmission? If so then you can wipe it out with WD-40 on a cloth or  WD-40 on a paper towel but don't spray a pressure shot of WD-40 into that hole unless you remove the pushrod then plug off the push rod channel. 

 

There is a felt on the push rod but those wear & don't always seal off the cavity that runs into the clutch area. (you don't want the WD-40 carrying that crap into the clutch area. 

 

That looks bad, was your clutch slipping?    

 

 

[Alba]

@spacewrench now you have me worried. I am in the UK & sourced an OEM slave cylinder so hoping no need for further removal of parts to reinstall.

 

@dirtrider thanks for the cleaning tips, I'll soak a rag to clean the debris and years of sludge.  There was no clutch slip that I was aware of, the issue came to light with the loss of fluid in the reservoir.

 

Hopefully have the new slave cylinder installed and bleed tomorrow, fingers crossed as I feel it's going to be a pain in the a33 .....

[Alba]

After about 45 mins I managed to get the banjo bolts attached and the slave cylinder fitted into it's hole. Note to anyone trying this job I found threading a long allen key in from the left side works to tighten/ loosen the bolt, access underneath is so limited.

 

What I am unsure of is when I push the cylinder further in I feel like I am pressing against a spring, is this sensation expected?  I have an OEM part and it's housed correctly so all should be good but the feeling was unexpected.

[dirtrider]

1 hour ago, Alba said:

After about 45 mins I managed to get the banjo bolts attached and the slave cylinder fitted into it's hole. Note to anyone trying this job I found threading a long allen key in from the left side works to tighten/ loosen the bolt, access underneath is so limited.

 

What I am unsure of is when I push the cylinder further in I feel like I am pressing against a spring, is this sensation expected?  I have an OEM part and it's housed correctly so all should be good but the feeling was unexpected.

Morning Alba

 

That spring pressure you feel is probably the piston contacting the push rod then depressing the piston.  

 

 

[Alba]

34 minutes ago, dirtrider said:

Morning Alba

 

That spring pressure you feel is probably the piston contacting the push rod then depressing the piston.  

 

 

 

Please forgive my ignorance, is this pressure to be expected, thus I can bolt together and bleed?

[Alba]

Update: we're installed and bleed.  Feeling a resistance in the clutch lever which is positive. 

 

Are there any checks I should complete before putting everything back?

 

Thanks for any tips ...

[dirtrider]

2 minutes ago, Alba said:

Update: we're installed and bleed.  Feeling a resistance in the clutch lever which is positive. 

 

Are there any checks I should complete before putting everything back?

 

Thanks for any tips ...

Morning  Alba

 

Tie the clutch lever in the pulled-in position for about 15 minutes, then check for fluid leaks at the fittings.

 

I usually put the transmission in 4th or 5th gear then try to spin the rear wheel with the clutch lever pulled in to see if the clutch is releasing.

[Alba]

1 minute ago, dirtrider said:

Morning  Alba

 

Tie the clutch lever in the pulled-in position for about 15 minutes, then check for fluid leaks at the fittings.

 

I usually put the transmission in 4th or 5th gear then try to spin the rear wheel with the clutch lever pulled in to see if the clutch is releasing.

 

I have the clutch lever tied wrapped at this moment so thinking the same. Cheers for 4th/ 5th gear tip.

 

Thanks for your help stepping through this fix.

[Alba]

Update: up and down the street shake down run with hard acceleration, all good.

 

What a frustrating job ...

 

Now onto installing new braided brake lines.